S-FM 226: Which Witch is Which

[PowersThatBe]

no but really this was fun seeing both of you get all upset about "a post" that "I made"

All this speculation, screen shotting and asking mods to come restore edits.

WOWzers.


you two will always be fun to torture.

[PowersThatBe]

lol go check timestamps about this "firestorm" cus you can se sw said i wa snot around so lol

Sorry, I dont understand what language this was supposed to be? What the what?

[ika]

Lol for people who don't care about my opinions you spent a long time responding to them.

becasue its amsuing

[ika]

Sorry, I dont understand what language this was supposed to be? What the what?

sorry you cant understand english

reading must be hard for you

[PowersThatBe]

becasue its amsuing

so you find them amusing, which means u care enough to be AMUSED. hence you care. gg no re

[ika]

no but really this was fun seeing both of you get all upset about "a post" that "I made"

All this speculation, screen shotting and asking mods to come restore edits.

WOWzers.


you two will always be fun to torture.

we neevr asked them to do it we said we could request it LOL

keep calling it what you like we will keep filing "reports" and gettinng off on it

[PowersThatBe]

sorry you cant understand english

reading must be hard for you

No no, whatever it is that you type is not english. Learn to use spell check and grammar, and then try to insult someone for not being able to flow your button smash.

[ika]

so you find them amusing, which means u care enough to be AMUSED. hence you care. gg no re

nah, being amused doesnt mean i care. it means im jsut a troll who like seeing you never learning

[ika]

No no, whatever it is that you type is not english. Learn to use spell check and grammar, and then try to insult someone for not being able to flow your button smash.

learn to English plz

[PowersThatBe]

we neevr asked them to do it we said we could request it LOL

keep calling it what you like we will keep filing "reports" and gettinng off on it

I know u will, better spread some rep around so you can neg rep me again LOL.

so funny you kids are.

I dont careeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, I like driving sw up a wall so I denied the post for ever. If you just ciick edited you can compare the two versions LOL. you dont even nEED mod to restore.

[PowersThatBe]

nah, being amused doesnt mean i care. it means im jsut a troll who like seeing you never learning

oh now ur a troll. classic.

[PowersThatBe]

learn to English plz

go back 2 skool plz

[PowersThatBe]

Ok ika love bug, I'm out fowwwwwrelz game is starting again and then I'm going to beedddy byeeeee.

[ika]

cant what?

Was this the post you thought I was so afraid of?

Lol, it's SW. She only knows two things.

1. Insult people from her pedestal, while propping up ika.

2. Play the victim.

gg

-lol sorry that was harsh.

*making sure it doesn't get edited again*

[ika]

I know u will, better spread some rep around so you can neg rep me again LOL.

so funny you kids are.

I dont careeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, I like driving sw up a wall so I denied the post for ever. If you just ciick edited you can compare the two versions LOL. you dont even nEED mod to restore.

your continued to repsonding and repeating something so outdadted shows you really do care

oh now ur a troll. classic.

cool story bro tell me something that has not been known forever and a half

Ok ika love bug, I'm out fowwwwwrelz game is starting again and then I'm going to beedddy byeeeee.

i know you will come back, after all big daddy crypt will drag you back even if you dont want it.

also you dont want to dissapoint SW do you? how will she file reports without you?

[PowersThatBe]

your continued to repsonding and repeating something so outdadted shows you really do care



cool story bro tell me something that has not been known forever and a half



i know you will come back, after all big daddy crypt will drag you back even if you dont want it.

also you dont want to dissapoint SW do you? how will she file reports without you?

=)

[Trine]

Apologies again for being late, but I would like to add that one of the reasons GET became so sure that I was mafia was that the host was going to replace me at night when I was late and made GET think that I had a night action that needed to be performed.

[PowersThatBe]

Apologies again for being late, but I would like to add that one of the reasons GET became so sure that I was mafia was that the host was going to replace me at night when I was late and made GET think that I had a night action that needed to be performed.

Ehh,

It was mostly due to two things.

1. Ika was your only null read. Everyone else was a weird town read. Looked fake.

2. The scum slip in which you claimed wasn't a slip but it clearly was.

Then yeah I speculated on set up due to him wanting to replace at night. But he could have wanted to replace you st night for any number of reasons. I wouldn't push a train on you for that and no one would vote with me for that reason.

Also when you were being questioned hard you were like "ahhh gtg" lol that was also sus

[ccantman]

@ccantman if we play again (which i bet we will if your sticking around) plz dont try to aruge such smatical things. they do nothing to further a gamestate. voting the host is not the same as voting the player in RVS stage. Much like where i talk about something that is mafia but not really "game mafia" and more generalized. While you can aruge in a sematical stance that they are the one and the same they have major differences in intent and motive.

I argue with it because thats is how you voted for it.

So if instead of doing what I did (aka vote Stealth) and give a stupid reason for it (mispelling the name)

I said, "Hi, its late, reading tommorow"

Both of these accomplish the same thing. Would you have voted me scum if I said the second line?

If the answer is yes, then that is fine with me, but if the answer is no, and you voted me because I said it. Can you not see where I have the arguement of arguing with you?

If the reason the first line has issues with you is because "it doesn't move the game state", then the second line also "doesn't move the game state"

This was my argument. I can see that voting for stealth and voting for say GET has different meaning, but I do not see the difference between what I said, and saying its late.

So if you give one a scum reading and one a null reading, instead of giving both a null reading. This is where I have an argument with you and why I argued it with you.

[ika]

I argue with it because thats is how you voted for it.

So if instead of doing what I did (aka vote Stealth) and give a stupid reason for it (mispelling the name)

I said, "Hi, its late, reading tommorow"

Both of these accomplish the same thing. Would you have voted me scum if I said the second line?

they do not accomplish the same thing as i have said on mutiple occasions. if you said "hi reading later" and never voted i would presume it was a breif check in and out and hold you to it later down the road. if you voted GET and claimed it was RVS voting i would of continued RVS voting.

If the answer is yes, then that is fine with me, but if the answer is no, and you voted me because I said it. Can you not see where I have the arguement of arguing with you?

the answer is no becasue the context and intentions are diffrent form voting outside of the game. you are intentionaly using a info that gives nothing and a ocntext and motive that is arugbly null at its best. at its worst its scum looking busy. with the "RVS vote/reading later" its more null arguable then scum motivated

If the reason the first line has issues with you is because "it doesn't move the game state", then the second line also "doesn't move the game state"

the second line sets up up for later for when you come back or not. so you may have not moved the game state yes but you still set yourself up to move the gamestate later with that line, the former of voting outside allows no progress whatsoever

This was my argument. I can see that voting for stealth and voting for say GET has different meaning, but I do not see the difference between what I said, and saying its late.

its the motive and intentions behind it. i feel like you are arguing reason X when im stating its reason Y

So if you give one a scum reading and one a null reading, instead of giving both a null reading. This is where I have an argument with you and why I argued it with you.

everyone has diffrent stanards of what someone does overall. like if SW were to do that i would instantly scum read it and push her off it. if a random new player were to do it would still scum read them but to a lesser extent.

you cant have this universal "application" of how everyone is gonna play becasue everyone is human at the end of the day and yes we all play diffrently, i do agree to that sense but i do expect some basic stuff of "push the game foward" or "make it so that you cna later"

[Trine]

Ehh,

It was mostly due to two things.

1. Ika was your only null read. Everyone else was a weird town read. Looked fake.

2. The scum slip in which you claimed wasn't a slip but it clearly was.

Then yeah I speculated on set up due to him wanting to replace at night. But he could have wanted to replace you st night for any number of reasons. I wouldn't push a train on you for that and no one would vote with me for that reason.

Also when you were being questioned hard you were like "ahhh gtg" lol that was also sus

Except I really did have to go because I was at work, and it wasn't a scumslip just because I turned out to be a witch. That was your perception of the obvious misunderstand.

Ika was the only person acting like scum in an obvious way. But without knowing people's personalities it was difficult to say. Then there were all the people MIA. Having zero info to go on and being unable to interact with people who was afk makes it difficult to determine anything. One of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of forum mafia ATM.

[PowersThatBe]

Except I really did have to go because I was at work, and it wasn't a scumslip just because I turned out to be a witch. That was your perception of the obvious misunderstand.

Ika was the only person acting like scum in an obvious way. But without knowing people's personalities it was difficult to say. Then there were all the people MIA. Having zero info to go on and being unable to interact with people who was afk makes it difficult to determine anything. One of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of forum mafia ATM.

um when you finally came back there were like 20 pages of things you could have gone back and pulled info. You were witch, and you were lazy. You made a mistake by wording your weird only ika could be scum push, in a way that could be inferred as a scumslip.

Sure you had to go, it's just unfortunate for you that once the heat started getting turned up you decided it was the right time to bail.

Listen, you can blame all the outside factors you want, but at the end of the day, you were lynched off your play.

Another thing that doomed you was the fact that you said you were all caught up and then you contradicted yourself and said you were only responding to people who were talking at that time. You admit here and now that other people being afk made it harder for you...which is an invalid excuse because you could have read interactions. You instead chose to buddy everyone that was against ika and tried to get us to lynch him (i.e. low hanging fruit at that moment).

Scum is hard, being MIA for 40 hours, and then trying to jump in and not seem sus is hard, I get it. But ultimately things you chose to do led to your downfall, not host saying he was going to wait till night to replace you.


In the future diversify your reads, even if fake, give more than 1 null read. You could have null read us and said our interaction/fighting with ika is what made you not able to get an accurate read on either of us.

You could have read sinon as scum for trying to push on stereo.

[Trine]

It had nothing to do with my 'play' and everything to do with my being late and trying to catch up and defend myself from the beginning. In any case, this is a pointless conversation. The game is over. Hopefully the next one goes better. But seriously... way too many of you get extremely... let's say passionate about this game (and I'm basing this off of other FMs I've read) to the point where it seems like playing is asking for a lot of stress. Something I'll have to consider before I sign up for the next game.

[PowersThatBe]

It had nothing to do with my 'play' and everything to do with my being late and trying to catch up and defend myself from the beginning. In any case, this is a pointless conversation. The game is over. Hopefully the next one goes better. But seriously... way too many of you get extremely... let's say passionate about this game (and I'm basing this off of other FMs I've read) to the point where it seems like playing is asking for a lot of stress. Something I'll have to consider before I sign up for the next game.

I was pointing out things you could do better for the future. It's constructive criticism. I get you can't see that you made obvious mistakes. You're new, it happens. Don't let "passion" scare you away.

Anyhow, it's never pointless to have a discussion that can help you learn.

Also, I am not a potato. :P

[ccantman]

everyone has diffrent stanards of what someone does overall. like if SW were to do that i would instantly scum read it and push her off it. if a random new player were to do it would still scum read them but to a lesser extent.

you cant have this universal "application" of how everyone is gonna play becasue everyone is human at the end of the day and yes we all play diffrently, i do agree to that sense but i do expect some basic stuff of "push the game foward" or "make it so that you cna later"

This if fine. As you have said, everyone has their own playstyle. To you
"Any play a person makes that doesn't help town is by default scum regardless of context" is what I am getting from

they do not accomplish the same thing as i have said on mutiple occasions. if you said "hi reading later" and never voted i would presume it was a breif check in and out and hold you to it later down the road. if you voted GET and claimed it was RVS voting i would of continued RVS voting.

the answer is no becasue the context and intentions are diffrent form voting outside of the game. you are intentionaly using a info that gives nothing and a ocntext and motive that is arugbly null at its best. at its worst its scum looking busy. with the "RVS vote/reading later" its more null arguable then scum motivated

From my point of view it would be assumed more context would be given later in the day.

the second line sets up up for later for when you come back or not. so you may have not moved the game state yes but you still set yourself up to move the gamestate later with that line, the former of voting outside allows no progress whatsoever

Based on this though, the assumption is clearly not a given to all parties involved.

Had I come back and still doing random stuff, then I would see this point, but once RVS was past There was no playing around.

its the motive and intentions behind it. i feel like you are arguing reason X when im stating its reason Y

You are saying its motive and intentions are different. I'm saying the outcome of both the motive and the intentions are the same, hence why the conclusion anyone can make of them should be the same. This will just be something we don't see eye to eye on.

everyone has diffrent stanards of what someone does overall. like if SW were to do that i would instantly scum read it and push her off it. if a random new player were to do it would still scum read them but to a lesser extent.

Getting back to this.
It is your game style to see this as scummy. That is fine, that is your style. I have no idea what your relationship to SW is, but if its someone you know, you have an personal meta with that person. If I see a troll vote, I'm going to see it for what it is; something neutral. That will be my play style.

But since you see it as scum, and will vote scum on it, when it comes down to it. This difference in view point will cause a conflict ion.
You see action A as scummy, I see action A as neutral (and then this is just going to be based on the player, for example based on what happened in game, I assume Stero see this as neutral for example

2: I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'll chalk it up to being a village idiot moment, but I plan on keeping an eye on ccantman. It seems more like a meaningless remark than anything that needs to be examined under a microscope.

If action A is done, There is a dispute, so If every game you see this as scummy and vote it as so. The town person who does so, needs to argue that they are town. If your reasoning is motive and intent of the action, the only argument the town can have against it is questioning the motive and intent of the the action. So while you don't want it to become an argument of semantics, there is only one path the argument can go down.

Since we had this confliction and you voted me, of course the agrument then happens in game as that is your reason for voting me, and that is why its my defense why its not me. Had you just read it as null or as potentially scummy and just left it at that, the argument probably doesn't come up, I don't need to defend on why your vote on me is not valid. Where as voting me, you had to make the case. There was extra challenges was that your reasoning was POE, but given that I didn't see YOUR Logic behing the POE making me scum because I didn't have this current reasoning I have now, your POE was not making sense to me POE as if I was giving a POE and you said the same thing, my POE would of put you at a neutral not a scum. So not explaining the POE also caused issues in game with this argument as there was no base to see where your argument was coming from counterargue back. (which also probably would of ended up at the same conclusion we have right now: a difference in opinion)

you cant have this universal "application" of how everyone is gonna play becasue everyone is human at the end of the day and yes we all play diffrently, i do agree to that sense but i do expect some basic stuff of "push the game foward" or "make it so that you cna later"

Then maybe the expectation is the issue.
You say everyone has different playstyles, but the only way to not be scummy is to play in your way where the game must always be pushed forward.
Also this is where I had my issue with the off-topic talk
If "Troll vote" is bad because it doesn't push the game forward
But off-topic talk is fine because it's game related.
If its game related but doesn't push the game forward, you expect A, but then don't always do A. (and then said you liked it. I don't care if you liked it or didn't like it, but don't complain about something that you yourself don't always do)



Personally I didn't care about the off-topic talk being there or not being there, but then I also didn't care if someone is trolling for a post or two. All during my Spring game, Fury and Rachyl were going off on who knows what that had 0 impact in game or about the game.

In the end we are just going to have different view points on this. You see something as scummy, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. I see something as neutral. It doesn't help town, but it doesn't hurt it either, therefore neutral. While you are seeing it doesn't help town, therefore scum. Nothing is really going to change my viewpoint from that. So at best we can agree that we disagree

[ccantman]

It had nothing to do with my 'play' and everything to do with my being late and trying to catch up and defend myself from the beginning. In any case, this is a pointless conversation. The game is over. Hopefully the next one goes better. But seriously... way too many of you get extremely... let's say passionate about this game (and I'm basing this off of other FMs I've read) to the point where it seems like playing is asking for a lot of stress. Something I'll have to consider before I sign up for the next game.

My vote on you had nothing to do with you being late. My vote was based on the discussion of you saying who was and wasn't a citizen.

[SilverWolf]

I consider obvious scum to be someone with an agenda or motive that helps scum. For example, Whad has played with ika as Town many times and knows his play. So to vote him for picking on low hanging fruit when he had already taken his vote off ccantman and then voteparked and never came back foe EoD, was scummy. Trine had ika as her only scumread when he was under the most suspicion. This falls under two things. Picking on low hanging fruit to get an easy mislynch. And fake looking reads as scum often have a hard time coming up with scum reads on townies and no one else was doing enough for Trine to pick on in her mind. Anything else might of drawn scrutiny from others so she played it safe where Town is often risky. Which is why ika's play would of been weird from scum as it draws all kinds of negative attention. Trine also was plainly trying to pit ika and PTB against each other more and that only helps scum.

[SilverWolf]

I've seen scum troll vote the host more often than not.

Edited to add, now that WIFOM is over-check Fury's last two games where he was scum. I've also seen it offsite in games.

I've also seen scum vote themselves in games they can, and their team mates and even jokingly claim scum.

Trolling in the beginning could be considered scum trying to look easy going and townie but it really doesn't contribute anything to the game.

Regarding off topic banter-I've used that to get townreads off people because I find scum has a harder time keeping that up and looking natural about it.

And yes, I'm the SW ika is talking about.

[ika]

This if fine. As you have said, everyone has their own playstyle. To you
"Any play a person makes that doesn't help town is by default scum regardless of context" is what I am getting from

more or less, its basicly "if your not trying to move foward the game your only helping scum



From my point of view it would be assumed more context would be given later in the day.

then thats just POV diffrence



Based on this though, the assumption is clearly not a given to all parties involved.

Had I come back and still doing random stuff, then I would see this point, but once RVS was past There was no playing around.

i would think it would be a fair assumption that if somoene did what you did that they would think you could come back and do nothing. it also in context does leave you open for easy reasons to eb scum read or show a motivation that you could not be around/troll the enitre day. you could easily play it off as "well its my playstyle" and then it turns into another sematical argument becasue the dfense is endorsing anti-town play


You are saying its motive and intentions are different. I'm saying the outcome of both the motive and the intentions are the same, hence why the conclusion anyone can make of them should be the same. This will just be something we don't see eye to eye on.

but they are not the same no matter how you look at it. i do agree overall we probally wont see eye to eye on it so im jsut gonna drop it



Getting back to this.
It is your game style to see this as scummy. That is fine, that is your style. I have no idea what your relationship to SW is, but if its someone you know, you have an personal meta with that person. If I see a troll vote, I'm going to see it for what it is; something neutral. That will be my play style.


But since you see it as scum, and will vote scum on it, when it comes down to it. This difference in view point will cause a conflict ion.
You see action A as scummy, I see action A as neutral (and then this is just going to be based on the player, for example based on what happened in game, I assume Stero see this as neutral for example

troll votes outside of RVS are not neutral alignment though. even rvs votes are not considered troll IMO. agree to disgaree overall but stuff like this is only going to endorse what is the bad site meta and i want ti to improve.

the thing i always say is that all votes are not troll. all votes always have meansing and reasons

if its a playstlye thing then so be it. it will have the same thing over and over again


If action A is done, There is a dispute, so If every game you see this as scummy and vote it as so. The town person who does so, needs to argue that they are town. If your reasoning is motive and intent of the action, the only argument the town can have against it is questioning the motive and intent of the the action. So while you don't want it to become an argument of semantics, there is only one path the argument can go down.

or town can jsut not do something that is inherntly anti-town to begin with. its not an argument of sematics anymore its an argument of what is objectivly better play for town. if you have to defend off a sematical vaule, then it should be understood that maybe its not good idea due to sematical vaules

also as i have said before, town should not have to defend themselfs, they should jsut be town

Since we had this confliction and you voted me, of course the agrument then happens in game as that is your reason for voting me, and that is why its my defense why its not me. Had you just read it as null or as potentially scummy and just left it at that, the argument probably doesn't come up, I don't need to defend on why your vote on me is not valid. Where as voting me, you had to make the case. There was extra challenges was that your reasoning was POE, but given that I didn't see YOUR Logic behing the POE making me scum because I didn't have this current reasoning I have now, your POE was not making sense to me POE as if I was giving a POE and you said the same thing, my POE would of put you at a neutral not a scum. So not explaining the POE also caused issues in game with this argument as there was no base to see where your argument was coming from counterargue back. (which also probably would of ended up at the same conclusion we have right now: a difference in opinion)

i dont ever care for logic and anyone who uses logic as a defence i call to be dumb becasue tis manipulative. if you dont agree with reasonings on stuff then thats the case of what goes on.

if your poe is diffrent then mine then instead of defenidng yourself you should of said "well my POE leads to XYZ not ABC" and give out your reaosns to have a dicussion instead of jsut arguing that my ideals or vaules are wrong.


Then maybe the expectation is the issue.
You say everyone has different playstyles, but the only way to not be scummy is to play in your way where the game must always be pushed forward.

not what i said at all nor what i imply. i want people to improve their play and play ina pro-town manner. thats normal expectaion of a person. not me

Also this is where I had my issue with the off-topic talk
If "Troll vote" is bad because it doesn't push the game forward
But off-topic talk is fine because it's game related.
If its game related but doesn't push the game forward, you expect A, but then don't always do A. (and then said you liked it. I don't care if you liked it or didn't like it, but don't complain about something that you yourself don't always do)

again your arguing X when im arguing Y.

talkign about something thats mafia related (aka meta or a past game) is still amfia related and game related becasue it talks about something that i feel liek scums would be more rigid about.

if your goinng "hows the weather" i question what the motivation or reason is besides off topic banter

Personally I didn't care about the off-topic talk being there or not being there, but then I also didn't care if someone is trolling for a post or two. All during my Spring game, Fury and Rachyl were going off on who knows what that had 0 impact in game or about the game.

its its lighthearted and has maybe 10 or so post i can deal with it, when it reaches pages of nothing that does nothing to move the game then i ask why. if i am doing something like that and i get a read off it or someone said as such and epxlained then i can see vaule in it. thats what i am saying, you are saying it adds no vaule and does nothing but make more post thats what i say is bad

In the end we are just going to have different view points on this. You see something as scummy, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. I see something as neutral. It doesn't help town, but it doesn't hurt it either, therefore neutral. While you are seeing it doesn't help town, therefore scum. Nothing is really going to change my viewpoint from that. So at best we can agree that we disagree

neutral = helps scum

town should always be pushing and playing for town not neutral. post can come off as neutral overall yes, but in the end town should be pushing towns agenda not being passive, not waiting, not sitting there and hope scums come out of wood works. thats what im saying. by doing "neutral" stuff you are helping sucm in the sense that town has a reason to vote you by your own logic: you are neutral read so town should have no problem pushing your lynch through

[ika]

if you think toherwise fine but its gonna be the thing i say to anyone and everyone becasue the site meta needs to be pushed in a better directiona dn that towns nees to start amping up their games and not being apathtic and letting someone else direct it all