S-FM 220: Empire

[ika]

On this note, I'm going to take my leave.

#PTB

"i still have not refuted ikas points so im gonna try to leave while everyone else is busy"

dont let the door hit you ont he way out

[MattZed]

Here's what it looked like Sino was doing and what I sometimes do and see scum doing. It's how he reacted to the votes on him. He immediately townread those who backed off him, but scumread every single person who pushed him and/or voted them back. He also looked like he was buddying unknown who knows him well by townreading his vote regardless.

Yes, he was town doing it but scum does this all the time as well.

In Sino's particular case, I would say the fact that he was townread by half of the town before his claim is a sign he wasn't doing terribly for himself.

I will disagree with you though on reading someone like that. In my experience, inexperienced scum tend to townread, not scumread, those going after them; this is because the player attacking them has accurate reads that the newbie scum can't truthfully discredit.

[BananaCucho]

Thank you Grylander for hosting! I'm sorry that I didn't get to play this one

[SilverWolf]

In Sino's particular case, I would say the fact that he was townread by half of the town before his claim is a sign he wasn't doing terribly for himself.

I will disagree with you though on reading someone like that. In my experience, inexperienced scum tend to townread, not scumread, those going after them; this is because the player attacking them has accurate reads that the newbie scum can't truthfully discredit.

I will give you this one since yzb started townreading me after I went after him. But I have still done as scum what Sino did to manipulate people. I'd like to play a game with Sino where we are both town since I've been scum against him in 3 so far.

[Sino]

I will give you this one since yzb started townreading me after I went after him. But I have still done as scum what Sino did to manipulate people. I'd like to play a game with Sino where we are both town since I've been scum against him in 3 so far.

And I'd like to be scum for once.

[ika]

In Sino's particular case, I would say the fact that he was townread by half of the town before his claim is a sign he wasn't doing terribly for himself.

I will disagree with you though on reading someone like that. In my experience, inexperienced scum tend to townread, not scumread, those going after them; this is because the player attacking them has accurate reads that the newbie scum can't truthfully discredit.

"i townread people who townread me, i scum read people who scumread me"

And I'd like to be scum for once.

want to trade roles if i or silver roll scum next time?

[BananaCucho]

I mean, I guess my point is that you could read it either way and that's a problem in terms of ambiguity. You're correct that the extra emphasis on a death condition in Rule #4 might suggest that trumps the general death condition. However, the last sentence is in bold and given the reference to rules, could be assumed to apply to each of one the points that are indented with dashes.

Basically, I'm just trying to suggest that the role card was messy and could be interpreted either way on this issue because of language that seems to conflict. Both readings are reasonable, especially if people are seeing in both directions. Given that's the case, I think the host has a big problem in terms of what to do, and in the case of ambiguity, I'd probably err on the side of interfering with the game the least. That's all I was trying to say -- the whole "let the players play" principle.

Lastly, this is Gyrlander's third or fourth game hosted -- not his first game. I hope he's a lot more careful in the future because there were some serious issues here.

@Gyrlander

Don't listen to the haters. Hell, Darkness is too much of a pussy to even host his own game.

[Unknown1234]

Oh snap.

[Gyrlander]

Ugh, at the end I won't be able to play with Calix.

[Mesk514]

it's just a game... on to the next one

[SuperJack]

Thoughts on the game:

-blackmailer was too strong for the scum. Calix was nearly impossible to understand without constant blackmailing of her. I'm sure the scum would have continued to blackmail her if she had lived.

-Yzb, you made a really weak post that drew attention to you, but you were fairly inactive and so it was hard for people to believe you at all.

-SuperJack, I think your downfall was when you suddenly peaked in activity and made a really forceful push on DW that really came out of nowhere.

-Silver Wolf: not much to say about your play, except that you accurately killed your targets and was Town-read by everyone.

Not my fault I was working and got home =/

[SuperJack]

I would like to thank @Gyrlander for hosting this game. Dispute his mistakes he has done a very good job holding it together, dispute people harassing him.
To Gyrlander: You've made some mistakes, so just learn from them ^^ no matter how many times you host, or play you can still make mistakes, even Crypt makes mistakes and forces the game to be reset.

Calix flipping out at the host and the blackmail, causing herself to die was quite Similar to Firebringers rage at the host & setup.

Just to make it clear, I was not the one who pushed Gylander to host the game x way. Or deal with the Blackmail x way.

I'm quite sad that I wasn't the Blackmailer, as my blackmail was way more interesting.

Also, I decided to shoot MZ, because everyone was reading him as the neutral, and everyone's reads where on point at this time. So I had to shoot to cause the most disruption to reads. Had Ika managed to lynch the Neutral, or had Ika been the Empress his move would of worked.

Other than that, my intention with the push of DW was not fear mongering, it was to try and simulate my status on lynching just like I did in Spirits and was trying to convince people not to waste a.lynch on Arrow. Which I would of defended myself with, if I had not seen myself at L-1 without Ika's vote and told gylander I wanted to shoot MZ.

Blaming me for being active at the end of the day is quite sad, as that was the time I had got home after work. Normally games leave me more time to post before EoD, but this game suits EU players more.

[yzb25]

yes there is one.

ill release it if @yzb25 and @SuperJack dont object

I don't object.

GGWP. Scum is hard for honest, kind men like me

[Cryptonic]

Wow that's some pathetic post game discussion.

[ika]

Wow that's some pathetic post game discussion.

Shoutout to@silverwolf for her amazing neutral play! Best neutral play in a long time to get that hard win

I'll link scum chat when I get home

[SilverWolf]

If scum topic is released, ika deleted some tells on me that he didn't want public knowledge. So that's what his deleted comments are.

[SilverWolf]

I don't object.

GGWP. Scum is hard for honest, kind men like me

I would recommend developing scumreads as scum and sticking with them. Try to come up with some original reasoning someone else hasn't used. If you want to change a scumread to town, make it look natural. Try to be more active if you can.

I don't agree with town lynching you the way they did in a lylo situation. If they were wrong, scum would of won. They should of let you speak. You could of come back and tried to get out of it. You only needed one mislynch.

[DarknessB]

Calix flipping out at the host and the blackmail, causing herself to die was quite Similar to Firebringers rage at the host & setup.

SuperJack, I understand your desire to defend Gyrlander against criticism, but this point is insanely ridiculous and you know it. The rules of S-FM Empire contains explicit provisions (two in fact, which was the problem) regarding what would happen if a blackmailed player didn't follow the blackmail instructions -- the consequence was either death at end of day or immediate death, depending on how you read the clauses together. That's literally a part of the game which Gyrlander himself contemplated given there were aspects of the setup which dealt with it.

Sure, Gyrlander's write-up was ambiguous (as discussed), but it's absurd to be comparing a legitimate game action with game-related consequences discussed in the rules with an overt gamethrow (revealing one's allies after you died in the game), which is never allowed by site FM rules. There's a reason action isn't going to be taken against Calix like it was against Firebringer -- because what she did wasn't against either site rules or Gyrlander's game rules and in fact, was specifically described by Gyrlander's game rules (albeit with two possible outcomes).

I understand you are not a fan of excessive criticism of hosts and we've debated this heavily in the past, but comparing a legitimate game action to overt gamethrowing is a massive cheap shot on your part.

[Cryptonic]

How about people try to be constructive for the rest of this discussion. Else every asshole in this post-game discussion going to get rolled, especially the person who causes it for the rest.

Respect one another and be constructive. This post-game toxicity is getting old.
Mafia is a game.

[BananaCucho]

How about people try to be constructive for the rest of this discussion. Else every asshole in this post-game discussion going to get rolled, especially the person who causes it for the rest.

Respect one another and be constructive. This post-game toxicity is getting old.
Mafia is a game.

^^

Grylander made some mistakes. He acknowledges that and will make better decisions in the future. Leave it alone.

[yzb25]

I would recommend developing scumreads as scum and sticking with them. Try to come up with some original reasoning someone else hasn't used. If you want to change a scumread to town, make it look natural. Try to be more active if you can.

I don't agree with town lynching you the way they did in a lylo situation. If they were wrong, scum would of won. They should of let you speak. You could of come back and tried to get out of it. You only needed one mislynch.

But at the same time, I shouldn't try too hard to force it. I saw that vote you made and thought "ooh if I can make a SW case that would be nice" and then I could never find any other dirt on you lol. RL aside, I did procrastinate talking a lot. I gotta get over that.

It's a shame I didn't get a chance to try and defend myself. I thought I had a reasonable shot getting RLVG mislynched at the time, but people were so confident in Calix's reads.

[SuperJack]

SuperJack, I understand your desire to defend Gyrlander against criticism, but this point is insanely ridiculous and you know it. The rules of S-FM Empire contains explicit provisions (two in fact, which was the problem) regarding what would happen if a blackmailed player didn't follow the blackmail instructions -- the consequence was either death at end of day or immediate death, depending on how you read the clauses together. That's literally a part of the game which Gyrlander himself contemplated given there were aspects of the setup which dealt with it.

Sure, Gyrlander's write-up was ambiguous (as discussed), but it's absurd to be comparing a legitimate game action with game-related consequences discussed in the rules with an overt gamethrow (revealing one's allies after you died in the game), which is never allowed by site FM rules. There's a reason action isn't going to be taken against Calix like it was against Firebringer -- because what she did wasn't against either site rules or Gyrlander's game rules and in fact, was specifically described by Gyrlander's game rules (albeit with two possible outcomes).

I understand you are not a fan of excessive criticism of hosts and we've debated this heavily in the past, but comparing a legitimate game action to overt gamethrowing is a massive cheap shot on your part.

=)

[BananaCucho]

(=

[yzb25]

=)

[deathworlds]

TPRs had no impact over the result. The Detective did not post checks, the Escort roleblocked nobody, the Doctor was mod-confirmed as a role due to the host fucking up.

The only impact it had was 'confirming' Sino as town due to the way he claimed, otherwise I disagree with your conclusion.

However I agree that four TPRs is excessive in general and can be cut down to 2-3 (to counter scum PRs).

Because you mislynched the escort day one. <3

[SilverWolf]

I was actually o.k. with Escort lynch once he claimed. He wouldn't get in my way and we wouldn't no lynch causing Sino to jail unknown. Like I said, there were a lot of ways to stop me. Escort, jailer, doctor, NK immune scum. Making the leader immune to healing was a good idea.

[secondpassing]

Posting in this thread because I feel like it.