S-FM 220: Empire

[MattZed]

I have nothing interesting to note about #25 although I disagree that it's a scum tell. However I recall that you used similar reasoning in another game. I'm pretty sure it was that game where you were Executioner with Frog as a target? That's all I have to say there.

#28 is irritation that Sino is trying to meta-read me given that he doesn't know me very well. I resent people dumping high expectations of my play on me or acting like they know what I'm like.

I know for a fact it's a tell you've been caught with before. Also that was a game where Frog used the tell on me while I was his exec, not the other way around.

Are we not supposed to have an idea of your meta after you've been by far the highest poster of 2016?

[Calix]

TBH, who's up for voting on the Assasin's target? Could make a great test of loyalty and give us more controlled kills.

I tried a similar thing in R&J. I don't think we should waste a lot of time on it - a couple off-hand comments near EOD as to who everyone scum-reads does the same thing so if that motivates people to post their reads then sure.

And why would town want to have the neutral win with them ? The assassin is never accepting any kind of deal anyways, both town's and sk's objective only align is case of the Emperor, once he's dead, the sk will keep trying to get town.

Neutral is the ONLY KPN that we know exists right now. Why would we NOT try to manipulate this to hit scum with? lol Right now, the mafia have NO scum-controlled kills and I'd like to keep it that way.

[Calix]

I know for a fact it's a tell you've been caught with before. Also that was a game where Frog used the tell on me while I was his exec, not the other way around.

Are we not supposed to have an idea of your meta after you've been by far the highest poster of 2016?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. If you want a hint, I've changed now that I'm at university.

[Sino]

Neutral is the ONLY KPN that we know exists right now. Why would we NOT try to manipulate this to hit scum with? lol Right now, the mafia have NO scum-controlled kills and I'd like to keep it that way.

Fair point but i think trying to manipulate the night kills is bound to failure. The sk has no reason to trust town.

[MattZed]

Again, why would the assassin go with town, they're gonna go with the one they feel is most likely to be Emperor or Pleb leader.

One of the roles they need to kill is scum. Town, collectively, has a better-than-chance guess at who scum are. If we vote on who is scum, we are giving them a good guess as to who one of their targets is while offering them protection from being lynched. Further, going after scum, he might kill that one role who can day-kill him.

Emperor hunting is just leaps and bounds smarter than leader hunting.

[MattZed]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. If you want a hint, I've changed now that I'm at university.

I'll believe such a change when I see it. Right now, your meta is as relevant to you as anyone else's is to them.

[Calix]

If I recall correctly, the Emperor's the lynch-proof dude, right? It's incredibly unlikely that the Neut will turn into a literal Serial Killer unless we fuck up and mislynch the Pleb Leader.

For this reason, we should always get a claim from people that we're lynching. No quick-hammering unclaimed players/ switching onto someone AFK at EOD or any of that shit.

And yes, MZ is right that the Neut is going to have a hard time finding the Pleb Leader unless they reveal. That's why hitting the Emperor first and giving town leeway to lose their confirmed role is WAY better.

[MattZed]

If I recall correctly, the Emperor's the lynch-proof dude, right? It's incredibly unlikely that the Neut will turn into a literal Serial Killer unless we fuck up and mislynch the Pleb Leader.

For this reason, we should always get a claim from people that we're lynching. No quick-hammering unclaimed players/ switching onto someone AFK at EOD or any of that shit.

And yes, MZ is right that the Neut is going to have a hard time finding the Pleb Leader unless they reveal. That's why hitting the Emperor first and giving town leeway to lose their confirmed role is WAY better.

That must be one of the finest "don't do anti-town shit" speeches I've ever seen.

[Sino]

If I recall correctly, the Emperor's the lynch-proof dude, right? It's incredibly unlikely that the Neut will turn into a literal Serial Killer unless we fuck up and mislynch the Pleb Leader.

For this reason, we should always get a claim from people that we're lynching. No quick-hammering unclaimed players/ switching onto someone AFK at EOD or any of that shit.

And yes, MZ is right that the Neut is going to have a hard time finding the Pleb Leader unless they reveal. That's why hitting the Emperor first and giving town leeway to lose their confirmed role is WAY better.

I still disagree about the leader revealing, if the assassin wins and leaves the game, that gives the NK to scum.

[ika]

all this talk about the neutral and nobody points out the impending flaw that the guard would jsut kill neutral if claimed...

[Calix]

That must be one of the finest "don't do anti-town shit" speeches I've ever seen.

Why thank you. Knowing this site, they're sorely needed ;)

[MattZed]

I still disagree about the leader revealing, if the assassin wins and leaves the game, that gives the NK to scum.

Not gonna lie, I did miss the part of the setup where they gain a factional kill when the Assasin leaves until now.

[Sino]

all this talk about the neutral and nobody points out the impending flaw that the guard would jsut kill neutral if claimed...

Where's the problem with that lol, that would be 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Calix]

I still disagree about the leader revealing, if the assassin wins and leaves the game, that gives the NK to scum.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. You realise that the Neutral has to survive to Day 3 by default given that he needs two nights to kill his targets, lol? If this goes well then the scum will hardly ever get off a kill.

all this talk about the neutral and nobody points out the impending flaw that the guard would jsut kill neutral if claimed...

That's why we're talking about Neut strategies that don't involve him claiming.

[MattZed]

all this talk about the neutral and nobody points out the impending flaw that the guard would jsut kill neutral if claimed...

That's why we set up this wonderful world where the neutral should claim leader if he needs to claim. I'm not done with the plan. We just need an agreed-upon claim that the Assasin can make that won't necessarily give himself away but will prevent a lynch.

[ika]

I still disagree about the leader revealing, if the assassin wins and leaves the game, that gives the NK to scum.

did you miss the fact that a lookout/detecive becomes insaley more powerful?

poedit: fuck you and all your psotings

[ika]

That's why we set up this wonderful world where the neutral should claim leader if he needs to claim. I'm not done with the plan. We just need an agreed-upon claim that the Assasin can make that won't necessarily give himself away but will prevent a lynch.

you relazie that any scum will jsut claim leader then? and that the assain would not wan to kill in in fear that it could be empress making it that empor would die then via lynch?

i mean the more impending thing is the wifom arugment of "well why didnt leader die" and then it would be like "oh hes neuttral" guard kills and we wasted time

[Calix]

That's why we set up this wonderful world where the neutral should claim leader if he needs to claim. I'm not done with the plan. We just need an agreed-upon claim that the Assasin can make that won't necessarily give himself away but will prevent a lynch.

Beautiful WIFOM.

I have a better idea. Support the Neut so that they're more inclined to act like town so they don't end up eating rope

This """plan""" only fails if the Neut is literally retarded and can't defend themselves to save their lives.

And yes, this is another "don't be an anti-town fuck" post.

[Unknown1234]

Hi

[Unknown1234]

Doesn't look like you to not place a RVS vote though.

What's up with Sino today? This is like 4th questioning I've seen so early from him and his questions don't make sense.

[Calix]

you relazie that any scum will jsut claim leader then? and that the assain would not wan to kill in in fear that it could be empress making it that empor would die then via lynch?

i mean the more impending thing is the wifom arugment of "well why didnt leader die" and then it would be like "oh hes neuttral" guard kills and we wasted time

Empress is night-immune.

Meanwhile I can't see a way that the Neut-killer role claims Pleb Leader...thus drawing the Neut kill to them...

So I don't see scum claiming Pleb Leader like that unless they were Emperor or something and even then, I'd be doubtful.

[Unknown1234]

Isn't SJ always scummy no matter what ?

This is some early shade dropping from Dino himself. I can't tell if he's just playing really badly as scum or trying to impress Calix by seeming helpful.

[Sino]

What's up with Sino today? This is like 4th questioning I've seen so early from him and his questions don't make sense.

Your quote isn't a question.

[MattZed]

you relazie that any scum will jsut claim leader then? and that the assain would not wan to kill in in fear that it could be empress making it that empor would die then via lynch?

i mean the more impending thing is the wifom arugment of "well why didnt leader die" and then it would be like "oh hes neuttral" guard kills and we wasted time

lol and if the scum try to claim leader, do you REALLY think the Assasin is going to hold back and not murder them to be safe? I like to trust our friendly neutrals, but I've been burned enough times to know how this ends. They may very well cross us at the first chance it seems useful to them (killing our leader), and hence I'm suggesting that as the role to claim so scum are too scared shitless to claim it.

Also this setup might make the guard blow their load on our leader, which is hitting the jackpot.

So yeah, the Assasin should claim leader.

[Sino]

This is some early shade dropping from Dino himself. I can't tell if he's just playing really badly as scum or trying to impress Calix by seeming helpful.

LOL, nice try.

How about you move on to what really matters ?

[Unknown1234]

Calix, it really doesn't look like you to say "let's get a confirmed town our leader", why were you suggesting this ?

Whoa, he did it again. Dino trouble.

[ika]

Empress is night-immune.

Meanwhile I can't see a way that the Neut-killer role claims Pleb Leader...thus drawing the Neut kill to them...

So I don't see scum claiming Pleb Leader like that unless they were Emperor or something and even then, I'd be doubtful.

thats what i mean

neutral claims leader: wont die
empress claims leader: wont die

basicly we sit there going "well is it nutral or not" cus scums could easily jsut not kill it for WIFOM sake

[ika]

lol and if the scum try to claim leader, do you REALLY think the Assasin is going to hold back and not murder them to be safe? I like to trust our friendly neutrals, but I've been burned enough times to know how this ends. They may very well cross us at the first chance it seems useful to them (killing our leader), and hence I'm suggesting that as the role to claim so scum are too scared shitless to claim it.

Also this setup might make the guard blow their load on our leader, which is hitting the jackpot.

So yeah, the Assasin should claim leader.

refute why empress should not when its night immune and can sit there not being dead and we waste time dicussing why the perosn is not dead and why guard didnt kill it yet

[Unknown1234]

Dino is probably my least favourite right now and I've dislike 80% of his posts. Goodish place to start, but I'll continue reading.

[Calix]

thats what i mean

neutral claims leader: wont die
empress claims leader: wont die

basicly we sit there going "well is it nutral or not" cus scums could easily jsut not kill it for WIFOM sake

Nah, just wait a day for the Neut to kill and leave a Death Note behind if they couldn't kill the Empress-claiming-Leader player. Or do it the old-fashioned way and use "analysis" or what do you call it ;D

However it's unlikely that this exact scenario will happen because hopefully the Neut/ Leader will play well

[SilverWolf]

Hi all, Here and reading up.

-vote ika

Haven't gotten to vote you in a game here in a long time.

[Sino]

Whoa, he did it again. Dino trouble.

Can you stop this ridiculous shade throwing ? Really doesn't do anything right now.

[MattZed]

refute why empress should not when its night immune and can sit there not being dead and we waste time dicussing why the perosn is not dead and why guard didnt kill it yet

If Empress gets shot then there's no night kill that night. Depending on TPR/feedback claims, we may be able to sort it out on that information alone, but if not there's always the following night's deathnote.

Guard can kill if it wants to risk the WIFOM of possibly attacking a role that can't be daykilled. This is the point.

[Calix]

Also just don't waste time with night kill WIFOM in any context and stick to traditional scum-hunting methods.

Same with associative reads, while I'm at it.

If you're stuck, just stick to the post analysis and reads and keep an open mind, etc. This is never a bad move.

[Sino]

Nah, just wait a day for the Neut to kill and leave a Death Note behind if they couldn't kill the Empress-claiming-Leader player. Or do it the old-fashioned way and use "analysis" or what do you call it ;D

However it's unlikely that this exact scenario will happen because hopefully the Neut/ Leader will play well

There's no reason for the assassin to give the Empress away if they end up finding her.

[SuperJack]

Where you go, m8? Is the game this easy?

-vote SuperJack

NO I am not scum and no I refuse to be another D1 Wagon Victim.

And I went to finish my game of War for the Overworld. If you know what I mean =)

[Calix]

Can you stop this ridiculous shade throwing ? Really doesn't do anything right now.

Odd read. Explain where Unknown is 'shade throwing' please.

[MattZed]

Nah, just wait a day for the Neut to kill and leave a Death Note behind if they couldn't kill the Empress-claiming-Leader player. Or do it the old-fashioned way and use "analysis" or what do you call it ;D

However it's unlikely that this exact scenario will happen because hopefully the Neut/ Leader will play well

Yep, Calix is the neut. Neutbrag right here if I've ever seen.

Guard can go ahead and collect their factional night kill and get the real game going.

[SuperJack]

Doesn't look like you to not place a RVS vote though.

Does she have to?

[MattZed]

NO I am not scum and no I refuse to be another D1 Wagon Victim.

And I went to finish my game of War for the Overworld. If you know what I mean =)

So how are you going to stop yourself from being lynched D1?

[ika]

Nah, just wait a day for the Neut to kill and leave a Death Note behind if they couldn't kill the Empress-claiming-Leader player. Or do it the old-fashioned way and use "analysis" or what do you call it ;D

However it's unlikely that this exact scenario will happen because hopefully the Neut/ Leader will play well

but here the counter argument: why would they out empress when it enables the empor to be unlynchable. basicly outing the empress would make his target supectable to lynch so neutral should not out who it is.

Hi all, Here and reading up.

-vote ika

Haven't gotten to vote you in a game here in a long time.

its been a while indeed.

you be town?

[Sino]

Odd read. Explain where Unknown is 'shade throwing' please.

Because he tries to turn my posts scummy, how was this not a legit question ?

[Calix]

Yep, Calix is the neut. Neutbrag right here if I've ever seen.

Guard can go ahead and collect their factional night kill and get the real game going.

Question. Why would you, as town, make a post trying to encourage a kill on a neutral-read of yours in order to unlock the scum kill?

Not that this would happen, but it's still a weird post for town to make. Please explain.

[SuperJack]

I mean, more or less. But that's only from him being avidly against taking D1 seriously.

I'll try to keep that in mind, but if i remember correctly, he has improved this, as show in Spirits.

No 0-o I just find day 1 too difficult, and any good play from D1 was Banana.

[Unknown1234]

@Calix , was this more or less your plan?

Offer to the Corrupted Royal Assassin:

Try to kill the Emperor. Every. Damned. Night. Aim for the Emperor. If you night kill him, stop killing. We won't lynch you if you do, and when we get down to one scum we'll reveal our leader so you can kill him and take your half of the win. It's better to work with us than work against us.

Do us all a favor, and kill the scummiest players. If I start seeing dead town leaders, your neck is as good as stretched.

This point seemed really weird, and I'm flagging it for my own notice later in the game and to point it out. You ask Calix what her plan was supposed to be, but then you end up explaining it for her?

[MattZed]

Dino is probably my least favourite right now and I've dislike 80% of his posts. Goodish place to start, but I'll continue reading.

While this is the topic of conversation, can you be more specific?

[ika]

If Empress gets shot then there's no night kill that night. Depending on TPR/feedback claims, we may be able to sort it out on that information alone, but if not there's always the following night's deathnote.

Guard can kill if it wants to risk the WIFOM of possibly attacking a role that can't be daykilled. This is the point.

again, neutral should nto out that and jsut let town deal with it themselfs in trying to find it cue tot he fact empress is the enabler of the lynch immunity

[Calix]

Because he tries to turn my posts scummy, how was this not a legit question ?

Yes and I want elaboration on your reasoning here. Do it now, please. Your posts where you bullheadedly refuse to see the virtue of Neut KPN are far less productive than your Unknown read so I want to see that.

[MattZed]

Question. Why would you, as town, make a post trying to encourage a kill on a neutral-read of yours in order to unlock the scum kill?

Not that this would happen, but it's still a weird post for town to make. Please explain.

If you have to ask, you'll never know.

I like the fact that you aren't denying being neut, though.

This point seemed really weird, and I'm flagging it for my own notice later in the game and to point it out. You ask Calix what her plan was supposed to be, but then you end up explaining it for her?

Nah, I just came up with my own plan and figured it was probably similar to Calix's so I asked if we were on the same page.

[SuperJack]

I wasn't talking an activity PL. I meant "well, we don't have any good candidates, so let's just lynch the weakest player."

You callin me weak Bro?