S-FM 196: QT 3.14 - Page 3
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  1. ISO #101

  2. ISO #102

  3. ISO #103

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    I could totally see this as a scum brag from Helz lol.
    And like "You wont catch me anyways" :P
    Nah, A Helz scum brag is when I make this post right here telling my unknown scum team mate that I am also scum and not to lynch me. That we should totally mislynch Calix instead

    -vote Calix
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  4. ISO #104

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Nah, A Helz scum brag is when I make this post right here telling my unknown scum team mate that I am also scum and not to lynch me. That we should totally mislynch Calix instead

    -vote Calix
    Calix is the host lol.
    DID YOU READ YOUR ROLE CARD!
    Don't pet growlithe, he will bite you.

  5. ISO #105

  6. ISO #106

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    Unknown had some weird posts to me claiming scum, and then he kind of started dropping off when we were pressuring him a bit.
    Not really sure why you answered this question that was not directed at you. But noted.

    The issue is not that he scum reads him. Its that he scum reads him with 99.99% certainty. That is what bothers me going back to the concept that "Scum have to fake their reads and slip by misguaging their presented level of certainty in a read"

    This is a legit scum tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    legit? as in you are mafia, but want to assume like you care?

    I was mafia with him 24 hours ago. He is your teammate, you are welcome for this information.
    So then meta reasoning. But I would still like to hear you explain it. I want to understand how you could possibly be so certain.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  7. ISO #107

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    Calix is the host lol.
    DID YOU READ YOUR ROLE CARD!
    Lol.. I will right now. : (
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  8. ISO #108

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Not really sure why you answered this question that was not directed at you. But noted.

    The issue is not that he scum reads him. Its that he scum reads him with 99.99% certainty. That is what bothers me going back to the concept that "Scum have to fake their reads and slip by misguaging their presented level of certainty in a read"

    This is a legit scum tell.

    So then meta reasoning. But I would still like to hear you explain it. I want to understand how you could possibly be so certain.
    Not meta, Just know how to read him.

  9. ISO #109

  10. ISO #110

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    -vote PLZLEAVEDUCKK


    Bullshit answer.

    I am asking for your reasoning. What did he post that made you read him in this way? Why do those posts point to scum in your mind? I will not accept this kind of cop out answer. Leaving my vote here for now.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  11. ISO #111

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    -vote PLZLEAVEDUCKK


    Bullshit answer.

    I am asking for your reasoning. What did he post that made you read him in this way? Why do those posts point to scum in your mind? I will not accept this kind of cop out answer. Leaving my vote here for now.
    Well IM in an overwatch game, so that is what you have to accept for now. Im just happy you managed to vote somebody in the game this time.

  12. ISO #112

  13. ISO #113

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    ... That game of basketball has me feeling incensed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Not meta, Just know how to read him.
    I've already made my views on meta reads known previously. All you've done so far is told me, "lol he's scum, i just know, trust me".

    On another note, I'm slightly wary that suddenly several people (including myself) are jumping hard on this point.
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  14. ISO #114

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    meta is you faking manager as cop. Reading people based on their comfort level/what they say/when they say it is not meta.
    Then explain it beyond "I can read the player"
    Describe his confort level.
    What specifically about what he said
    What about context makes it scummy.
    Don't pet growlithe, he will bite you.

  15. ISO #115

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    Then explain it beyond "I can read the player"
    Describe his confort level.
    What specifically about what he said
    What about context makes it scummy.
    later sure... if you people cant wait then too bad lol. I will not go full whad, but I am trying to tab out read posts comment tab in.

  16. ISO #116

  17. ISO #117

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Well IM in an overwatch game, so that is what you have to accept for now. Im just happy you managed to vote somebody in the game this time.
    Thats fine. Im not in a huge hurry. But I am going to keep bringing this up throughout the day until you provide a satisfactory answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    meta is you faking manager as cop. Reading people based on their comfort level/what they say/when they say it is not meta.
    I'm beginning to think you are a new player. Nothing wrong with that. But let me clarify this for you.

    Meta reads are reads based off prior knowledge of the player. You are reading the player as opposed to the slot.
    Soul reads are reads based off gut feelings. You do not have reasoning for your reads that you can logically explain.

    These are the kinds of reads that are not based on reasoning. With your level of presented certainty you must have some form of reasoning with your read so I am confident that your read is not just one of these and am demanding an explanation of your thought process.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  18. ISO #118

  19. ISO #119

  20. ISO #120

  21. ISO #121

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Since people are already skeptical of my alignment, let me say soemthing really scummy:

    I am already willing to do a 1 for 1 trade. lynch me and unknown, either order I dont care as long as you lynch both of us.
    Is that really scummy though if we commit ourselves to the two lynches? You're either town who believes your read or a scum ensuring that he's going to die.

    You could make an argument about the KP, I suppose.
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  22. ISO #122

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Since people are already skeptical of my alignment, let me say soemthing really scummy:

    I am already willing to do a 1 for 1 trade. lynch me and unknown, either order I dont care as long as you lynch both of us.
    I am still dead set at hearing why you are so certain unknown is scum.

    And there is no need to lock in lynch targets this soon after a game starts. Are you saying 1 for 1 trade because you actually townread unknown?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  23. ISO #123

  24. ISO #124

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    I am so wary of helz, cause I know how well he can act town when he isn't town lol.
    Sounds like I will just have to kill you night 1 then : )

    Up for some Mines?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  25. ISO #125

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Btw. Just have to say, RIP Psyduck. Even though nobody from our community was allowed to attend his funeral because we are not Mormon.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  26. ISO #126

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    Day1 confession. Too soon... Too soon...
    He opens the game by voting banana, a player that was not in our last game and was not around to see his crash and burn. If I had to guess how he would open the game it would be voting banana or helz.

    This quoted post is verbatim what I would have expected him to type as a rerolling mafia and wanting to correct his errors from last game. Instead of trying to be overly defensive to incoming pressure he is responding to a comment made to someone other than him and trying to fit into town. I have spent a game with him as mafia, and a lot of time with him on skype the past few days and I see this as him trying to improve his mafia play which I respect, but can easily pick out.

    He then magically disappears, a lot easier to not crumble to pressure when you leave.

    I dont care if you want to label it as meta, soul, or duck reads, i call them correct reads.

  27. ISO #127

  28. ISO #128

  29. ISO #129

  30. ISO #130

  31. ISO #131

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Rereading I could see
    Town:
    None

    Mafia:
    Fire
    Mattzed

    or

    Town:
    Fire

    Mafia:
    Unknown
    helz

    More confident on world 2, not ruling out Fire pocketing me and being with mattzed though.

    Great reads when people still have not posted right? Thanks I know.
    Why is Helz your pairing with Unknown? I'm more inclined to townread him for pressing you on your Unknown read.
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  32. ISO #132

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    Why is Helz your pairing with Unknown? I'm more inclined to townread him for pressing you on your Unknown read.
    Did not like his opening posts. He said he thinks im new which could be him thinking he can get easy town cred by pressuring me if I do not react well to it. Notice how you town read him for it when I was shit posting?

  33. ISO #133

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    I see where you're coming from, DUCK, but I'm not scumreading him for it. Perhaps more nullish now. He did end up making you clarify your point more thoroughly and also clarified some other things like definitions of meta reads. I don't consider it overly indicative of alignment at this point, I do think it was productive for discussion though and so slightly net-towny overall. I suppose it could be a bit fluffy, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    Confirmed scum, town don't agree to be lynched.
    Did you ever respond to this? When you were talking about 1 and 1 lynch on you and Unknown. That's when I mentioned other people defending you.
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  34. ISO #134

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    Why is Helz your pairing with Unknown? I'm more inclined to townread him for pressing you on your Unknown read.
    I just want to point out, that just because you have same thoughts as another player doesn't mean you are same alignment.
    I had this difficulty before, and should have known better last game.

    >.< (looking at you duck)
    Don't pet growlithe, he will bite you.

  35. ISO #135

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    I just want to point out, that just because you have same thoughts as another player doesn't mean you are same alignment.
    I had this difficulty before, and should have known better last game.

    >.< (looking at you duck)
    It was because of the pressing itself, not because I had the same idea.
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  36. ISO #136

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    I see where you're coming from, DUCK, but I'm not scumreading him for it. Perhaps more nullish now. He did end up making you clarify your point more thoroughly and also clarified some other things like definitions of meta reads. I don't consider it overly indicative of alignment at this point, I do think it was productive for discussion though and so slightly net-towny overall. I suppose it could be a bit fluffy, as well.



    Did you ever respond to this? When you were talking about 1 and 1 lynch on you and Unknown. That's when I mentioned other people defending you.
    Against my better judgement, I trust this town to accurately lynch the last mafia after the 1 for 1 trade. It is more of a testament to how strong my day1 reads are compared to other players that I am willing to give myself for a mafia. 1 for 1 trades always favor town.

    Lets see for this setup well assume I died first so no night kp, 5v2 goes to 4v2(Me lynched) goes to 4v1(unknown lynched) Night kp puts it to 3v1. Lynching me and unknown will give us two lynches to win the game.

    I know what you are thinking, but duck what if hes town how can you be so sure. It is what I do friend, it is what I do.

  37. ISO #137

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    I see where you're coming from, DUCK, but I'm not scumreading him for it. Perhaps more nullish now. He did end up making you clarify your point more thoroughly and also clarified some other things like definitions of meta reads. I don't consider it overly indicative of alignment at this point, I do think it was productive for discussion though and so slightly net-towny overall. I suppose it could be a bit fluffy, as well.



    Did you ever respond to this? When you were talking about 1 and 1 lynch on you and Unknown. That's when I mentioned other people defending you.
    Also, you changed from a townread on him to null because I don't like his reasoning, and then go back to a town read, then say it is fluffy.

    You want helz spot on my mafia team or something?

  38. ISO #138

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Also, you changed from a townread on him to null because I don't like his reasoning, and then go back to a town read, then say it is fluffy.

    You want helz spot on my mafia team or something?
    "More nullish" = town -> null -> town?
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  39. ISO #139

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Against my better judgement, I trust this town to accurately lynch the last mafia after the 1 for 1 trade. It is more of a testament to how strong my day1 reads are compared to other players that I am willing to give myself for a mafia. 1 for 1 trades always favor town.

    Lets see for this setup well assume I died first so no night kp, 5v2 goes to 4v2(Me lynched) goes to 4v1(unknown lynched) Night kp puts it to 3v1. Lynching me and unknown will give us two lynches to win the game.

    I know what you are thinking, but duck what if hes town how can you be so sure. It is what I do friend, it is what I do.
    Your judgment is what is telling you that Unknown is scum, I assume, so why should it now be ignored in this instance?

    Also: If you have a solid read, then you should be trying to lynch him without giving up your own life in return. Another thing, noting that if he is scum and you are town or vice versa, mislynching the town first produces no real difference due to the KP mechanics; it basically converts the would-be-mafia-kill into for sure onto the specific townie rather than whoever the mafia chooses, which may or may not be beneficial overall.
    Death, yet the Town.
    ~The Town Code

  40. ISO #140

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Well I have crossed from drinking to straight fucked up. But I am gona post after I read up again for lawls
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  41. ISO #141

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    lol ignore me I missed the BC vote early on.

    Back to my random vote.

    -vote PLZLEAVEDUCKK
    There's literally no reason to go back to a random vote unless you think ducks response to your initial vote was scummy. Do you feel that is the case?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    This reeks of sheep, which town have no incentive toward at this point. I become more confident that my vote on Duck is correct.
    MZ tunnel already. With him its a town tell. Looks like I won't get to lynch him day one

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    You used to feed mine.

    But I'm starting to like your continued presence in this thread. Since Mafia doesn't yet have a night kill, active town don't have to worry about being killed.

    I wouldn't be opposed to lynching the least active player if nothing interesting happens after 48 hours. This is going to be a discussion heavy game, and there's no sense in leaving null slots.

    (note the IF.)
    And then MZ does this. Even though we are off the FM where lurkers won by lurking, this is a small game and this lazy throw out around his tunnel push on Duck screams "if you don't bite duck, here's a low fruit for you"

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    Getting lynched Day 1 isn't a horrible plan for scum I don't think.
    If you think you suck at survival and deception better to give your teammate a free kill then the possibility of your teammate getting lynched over you.

    ^ Tips for the scum right there.
    Town points for fire for this. Not saying why but it should be obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by PLZLEAVEDUCKK View Post
    Widowmaker or Hanzo, and why is it Widowmaker?
    Hanzo is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Thats fine. Im not in a huge hurry. But I am going to keep bringing this up throughout the day until you provide a satisfactory answer.

    I'm beginning to think you are a new player. Nothing wrong with that. But let me clarify this for you.

    Meta reads are reads based off prior knowledge of the player. You are reading the player as opposed to the slot.
    Soul reads are reads based off gut feelings. You do not have reasoning for your reads that you can logically explain.

    These are the kinds of reads that are not based on reasoning. With your level of presented certainty you must have some form of reasoning with your read so I am confident that your read is not just one of these and am demanding an explanation of your thought process.
    I feel like Helz is over focusing on the 99% comment here. People say "I'm 99% sure you're scum" all the time based off of gut reads. Seems like a silly stretch and if it weren't so early I would say a bit of a distraction.

    I'm not liking it enough to put my vote here.

    -vote Helz


    Quote Originally Posted by Firebringer View Post
    I am so wary of helz, cause I know how well he can act town when he isn't town lol.
    Funny you would say this. "Explain why you're 99% confident and not 75% confident - legit slip btw guys" is not acting towny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    Why is Helz your pairing with Unknown? I'm more inclined to townread him for pressing you on your Unknown read.
    He's not pressing on the read - he's pressing on the level of certainty behind the read when saying "99% certain" is actually a common saying when expressing confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovath View Post
    Your judgment is what is telling you that Unknown is scum, I assume, so why should it now be ignored in this instance?

    Also: If you have a solid read, then you should be trying to lynch him without giving up your own life in return. Another thing, noting that if he is scum and you are town or vice versa, mislynching the town first produces no real difference due to the KP mechanics; it basically converts the would-be-mafia-kill into for sure onto the specific townie rather than whoever the mafia chooses, which may or may not be beneficial overall.
    What benefit would scum duck have to declare a 1v1 at this point to get lynched first? If he's scum that unlocks a kill for his faction but all of a sudden the scum team is down to 1 after one day. And after he flips, Unknown isn't lynched - it could be bussing since duck seems confident in reading unknown as scum but that is a much more risky play for scum than town.

    Fire did this in a recent game but his back was against the wall and he was in a super bad place. This situation is different - duck has two votes, sure, but is not in danger of being lynched but rather confident in his read.

    I currently have no read on unknown but I'm town reading duck, and depending on how this Helz thing goes I could eventually switch.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho

  42. ISO #142

  43. ISO #143

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    So run through 1 I looked at MattZed and Firebringer. Here it is:

    MattZed-
    Straight up townie feeling. Im not going to bother going into why. I will not vote this guy for the D1 lynch.

    FireBringer-
    Post 1 claims Mafia. For meta shit he does that Indy ploy and is known for his all over the place playstyle. I am slightly more inclined to say he would do this as town opposed to scum but I do not put any weight in that. He jumps to pressure MattZed in post 27 which is slightly townie but at the same time there is potential for it to opertunisitcly so. Then post 32 he jumps on Kovath with another vote swap. This is mechanically a scummy move as well as screaming “I am town trying to scum hunt.” Post 40 he points back to him claiming scum which is a null play from him. Post 41 he town reads MattZed which makes no fucking sense at all in contrast with his post 27 while scum reading Kovath and Unknown (Sheep style). Post 44 reaction pokes Kovath which I could see from a town perspective. 44,47,50 all null. Post 51 he is leading Duckk to scum read Kovath which would be on par with a scum play. 65 he has fully backtracked on his reads townreading Kovath and MattZed with reasoning I dislike. He states (@MattZed) that his post “I get the feeling this is a serious post and you’re testing if you actually found your ally, but hiding it as a joke” (Pointed at Duckk) with a critical “I think you are just trying to Reinforce your vote on him” followed by a town read. This feels like a contradiction that just does not work. Why flip reads on 2 slots with a seemingly scum-town read with no apparent reasoning..
    Post 69 is either communicating with team mate or WIFOM to insulate from a night kill + reaction test. Brazen as hell if it’s a scum play. I would be leaning town on it if it were any other player. Post 87 he once again goes at MattZed who he Scum read, then town read, now is pushing as scum once again. Heavily inconsistent.

    @Fire- What made you Townread MattZed in post 65? Why did you flip your vote on Kovath?

    I am uncomfortable with Firebringer's plays. Kinda started to zone out near the end but he looks bad
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  44. ISO #144

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    @BananaCucho , I switched back to Duckk because he was online and he was the one I thought could be most usefully interrogated by a D1 RV.

    As much as it pains me to say this, I agree with Banana about Helz. The overcertainty fits too superficially into the category of "things Helz would be doing as town;" Helz likes to latch onto overconfidence, (a technique I agree with in general) but here it doesn't really apply. Duckk was clearly being hyperbolic. But what's more suspicious is that scum aren't informed in this setup, so scum's true confidence shouldn't be any different from a town's.

    Of course, 99.99% confidence is simply not true in any case, which might suggest Duckk is either being careless about his reads (the more likely explanation, tbh), or is scum and is intentionally going after people he thinks are not his partner and making the case too strongly. But this doesn't really hold up, because the problem Helz has is with the strength of the read, not the read itself. The question to be asked is "if Duck were town/scum, how likely would he be to claim "99.99% confidence""? I don't see scum Duckk being much more likely than town Duckk to be doing this, and I doubt continuing this angle will be productive.

    Helz, I want an explanation as to why you're so stuck on an alleged overconfidence slip in a game where scum are uninformed.

    -vote Helz
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  45. ISO #145

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Kovath
    Post 13 speaks to some odd reading but looks genuine. Post 31 he calls MattZed a town leader? Maybe trolling but pushing a scum read on Firebringer. Post 38 looks more like painting FB as scummy than reading him as scummy. Post 46 is out of left field. Not sure what the hell PR’s have to do with anything here. Post 48 he pushes a scum read on Duckk. Post 64 is just derp and of no value either way. Post 71 looks more like painting FB as scum than reading him as scum. Post 86 is luke warm. Post 113 he is pushing Dukk for reasoning which I like but is also opportunistic. #121 he follows up with highly speculative reasoning. #131 keeps pushing on Duckk. Post 139 is more speculative reasoning but seemingly from a town perspective. Starting to feel like his perspective can be pegged.
    Plzleaveduckk
    Lots of trolling and “I am busy” in his first posts. Post 22 he suggests he legit scum reads FireBringer with reasoning. There is nothing troll about this post. Post 25 he is sensitive to MattZed’s vote with the following post (26) providing more “I am busy” justification. What is interesting in this post is that he once again expresses confidence in a vote on unknown. Now let me break these things down.

    Firebringer:
    #2 Troll scum claim
    #6 Trolling
    #8 Calls Duckk his teammate suggesting that Duckk is scum
    #12 Trolling
    #15 Fluff
    #18 Responds to Duckk suggesting they distance from etch other as scum buddies
    #19 Pushes on Unknown

    Unknown:
    #9 Troll Votes BananaCucho
    #10 Troll post
    #17 Calls Firebringers post a D1 confession and saying its too soon
    #21 Fluff

    Of these conclusion I could see him scum reading Firebringer but the hardcore read on Unknown makes no sense at all. Its expressing a strong read with just 1 post of any value which is just insanity. At this point its obvious to me that the player is misrepresenting their level of certainty but the question is ‘why’ are they doing so. Obvious scum intentions come to mind with very derpy town plays as a distant possibility.

    Post 34 is a trolling response to being sensitive to being voted and post 37 he groups Unknown and Mattzed into a scum team. I will note that just a few posts earlier he scum read Firebringer but such a thing was apparently thrown aside. I place this reasoning on par with OMGUS after Matt voted him. Post 45 Duckk suggests that he has 100% focus on Unknown and MattZed and post 52 he flat out calls Unknown as 99.99 (not absolute) being mafia. Once again this is with very few posts by the player and a very out of place conclusion drawn. He follows up in the next post by pushing on Kovath.
    Post 60 he calls Firebringer a scum mate and speaks to distance from etchother. Kind of echoing Firebringers earlier post. I will call it trolling and potentially town reading FB. Post 75 he gives a slight read wall calling FB town and Unknown/MattZed Mafia with Kovath being Null. This is consistent with his posts and shown reasoning. Post 97 he scum reads Unknown and me emphasizing his scum read on unknown. Post 99 he calls out FB for trying to pocket him. Post 120 he is willing to die as long as Unknown dies. Post 126 he gives squirrely reasoning for his level of certainty on his Unknown read.
    Post 129 he gives another read wall calling FB FB/MattZed mafia and a separate situation with Myself and Unknown being Mafia (With FB as town). Looking through the game I can very softly understand his reasoning. Post 136 suggests he is willing to 1v1 Unknown (once again with odd reasoning)

    Overall what would make the most sense to me is if PLZLEAVEDUCKK is town with some kind of OOG knowledge that Unknown is scum. He reads like town but his level of certainty that Unknown is scum is not based off any kind of reasoning what-so-ever. The alternative is that he is scum pretending to have some read he does not have in the first place. Either way his reasoning does not match his conclusions and his justifications do not look like they support some previous line of thought but rather some new line of justification for his presented reads. I have to mark the player as null given my mixed reads on the slot.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  46. ISO #146

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    @BananaCucho , I switched back to Duckk because he was online and he was the one I thought could be most usefully interrogated by a D1 RV.

    As much as it pains me to say this, I agree with Banana about Helz. The overcertainty fits too superficially into the category of "things Helz would be doing as town;" Helz likes to latch onto overconfidence, (a technique I agree with in general) but here it doesn't really apply. Duckk was clearly being hyperbolic. But what's more suspicious is that scum aren't informed in this setup, so scum's true confidence shouldn't be any different from a town's.

    Of course, 99.99% confidence is simply not true in any case, which might suggest Duckk is either being careless about his reads (the more likely explanation, tbh), or is scum and is intentionally going after people he thinks are not his partner and making the case too strongly. But this doesn't really hold up, because the problem Helz has is with the strength of the read, not the read itself. The question to be asked is "if Duck were town/scum, how likely would he be to claim "99.99% confidence""? I don't see scum Duckk being much more likely than town Duckk to be doing this, and I doubt continuing this angle will be productive.

    Helz, I want an explanation as to why you're so stuck on an alleged overconfidence slip in a game where scum are uninformed.

    -vote Helz
    I suppose I will respond with my attached read on you and Banana
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  47. ISO #147

  48. ISO #148

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    FireBringer-
    Post 1 claims Mafia. For meta shit he does that Indy ploy and is known for his all over the place playstyle. I am slightly more inclined to say he would do this as town opposed to scum but I do not put any weight in that. He jumps to pressure MattZed in post 27 which is slightly townie but at the same time there is potential for it to opertunisitcly so. Then post 32 he jumps on Kovath with another vote swap. This is mechanically a scummy move as well as screaming “I am town trying to scum hunt.” Post 40 he points back to him claiming scum which is a null play from him. Post 41 he town reads MattZed which makes no fucking sense at all in contrast with his post 27 while scum reading Kovath and Unknown (Sheep style). Post 44 reaction pokes Kovath which I could see from a town perspective. 44,47,50 all null. Post 51 he is leading Duckk to scum read Kovath which would be on par with a scum play. 65 he has fully backtracked on his reads townreading Kovath and MattZed with reasoning I dislike. He states (@MattZed) that his post “I get the feeling this is a serious post and you’re testing if you actually found your ally, but hiding it as a joke” (Pointed at Duckk) with a critical “I think you are just trying to Reinforce your vote on him” followed by a town read. This feels like a contradiction that just does not work. Why flip reads on 2 slots with a seemingly scum-town read with no apparent reasoning..
    Post 69 is either communicating with team mate or WIFOM to insulate from a night kill + reaction test. Brazen as hell if it’s a scum play. I would be leaning town on it if it were any other player. Post 87 he once again goes at MattZed who he Scum read, then town read, now is pushing as scum once again. Heavily inconsistent.

    @Fire- What made you Townread MattZed in post 65? Why did you flip your vote on Kovath?

    I am uncomfortable with Firebringer's plays. Kinda started to zone out near the end but he looks bad
    There is so much to cover in this, but Ill just address the questions right now.
    At first I thought Matt was being scummy, but then I rethought about how he plays and his questions and attitude seemed more genuine or what he would do as town. I know, meta its bad. I can see Matt actually trying to figure stuff out, though he has bad questioning and doesn't analyze properly in some scenario, it still feel like he is going through and attempting it, even if he isn't seeing what I think he should be seeing.
    Don't pet growlithe, he will bite you.

  49. ISO #149

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Banana
    Not many posts. First post is #82 (Checking in). Next post is a pretty good wall of thoughts. Pretty much all that’s there to dig into so I will get to it.

    She pushes on MattZeds return to random voting with a question. Solid move but null.
    She then calls some soft MattZed post townie. This sets of alarms. Why would calling a player sheep be a town tell? That post from MattZed was pretty Null. I do not care for the easy town cred handed out.
    Then theres a null read on MZ being willing to lynch lurky players with meta reasoning. Kinda fluffy position to take stating the obvious
    She then town reads FB’s post suggesting that scum have inclination to submarine and go deep wolf off the bat. There is just so many implications to FB’s post here that she did not consider. I feel critical reading this soft hip shot analysis. Why wouldent she consider it being FB communicating to a team mate? Why wouldn’t she see it as scummy to advice newbie scum to run a deep wolf play? How is this a townie post and why would a player of her skill level give town cred to such a post without criticism?
    Then some troll
    Then she zeros in on my focus of Duckk’s reasoning and level of certainty. I kind of see it discrediting a valid point given her following vote on me. Maybe there is some level of OMGUS there on my part but it seems out of place.
    Next quote is FB expressing his lack of confidence in town pegging me while stating that my questioning Duckk’s level of confidence in his read is not a town tell for me. I agree that its not simply because scum hunting is not a hardcore town tell but it sure as hell is not a scum tell either which seems to be what she is representing my reasoning as.
    Next quote is of Kovath once again on me digging into my reasoning on Duckk’s level of certainty. Its almost like in the entire thread her whole focus is on this one push I made. I will call it null but interesting.
    The last quote is her defending Duckk for attempting to put himself in a 1v1 with Unknown. She calls it potential bussing which is odd given that scum do not know their team mates and follows up with some meta. This post is ended in a town read statement on Duckk without reasoning.

    @Banana
    Whats with the level of focus on my reasoning that total certainty is potentially a slip?
    What posts has Duckk made that makes you town read him and why?
    What made you town read FB’s post that you quoted? I do not understand any line of reasoning here.
    What are your thoughts on Unknown? You kinda avoided that subject while covering everything around it which caught my attention.

    MattZed
    First post of note is #20. He voices the perspective scum will take D1 in this game with reasoning. He follows up with some critical thoughts on Duckk being sensitive to pressure and a questionable post on being more confident that his vote on duck was correct (Post 28.) Post 33 is interesting. It suggest a scum read on Firebringer. Kind of voiced from a scum perspective.
    Post 43 he points out a solid observation about the mafias ability to kill. He follows it up with a statement that he is willing to lynch lurkers. Null..
    Post 56 he pushes FB for his quality of posts. Then in post 62 he questions Duckks reasoning behind his post suggesting it could be a scum slip. Then in post 67 he follows up suggesting that he scum reads duck but questions Kovath’s reasoning that his being willing to be lynched = scum.
    Post 84 he pushes for reasoning from FB. Then in post 144 he responds to Banana’s question of him. Whats interesting about this post is that he pushes against my reasoning that Duckk’s certainty is a scum tell in this specific situation. That speaks to him having read Duckks actions and considered my push in relation to that players actions and then came to a conclusion. Although he directly misses the point as he goes on.

    So explanation of why I am so stuck on the overconfidence slip in a game where scum are uninformed? Pretty simple. It was vetting. Although even in games where scum are totally uninformed they 100% fuck up and misrepresent their level of confidence on a read simply because their objective is not to find scum but rather to lynch players. I saw a tell and I harped on it breaking RVS and creating conversation of value.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  50. ISO #150

    Re: S-FM 196: QT 3.14

    Unknown
    I am really not sure where the hell the scum reads on this player are coming from. He has literally given nothing to read him with. I would not exactly be opposed to policy lynching him thus far simply because his play makes him look like useless town at best. Hitting between scum and useless town is a low risk lynch..
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

 

 

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