Nerf Marshall. Too OP.

[Kelivia]

I again had an amazing win as Marshall...
Except it was a flawless town win for Happily Ever After (WOO)

*suggestion tag is a joke you can remove it if you want*

Happily Ever After (Flawless Victory as Town):
-Mafia- (247).SC2Replay

[SuperJack]

Marshall is only OP when OP options and roles are selected with it.

[TheDarkestLight]

Skill is op, you gotta nerf skill.

Mods, make skill have less impact on the game to make it more fair.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Skill is op, you gotta nerf skill.

Mods, make skill have less impact on the game to make it more fair.

Mod is the last mafia. There are 14 town mason.....how to win town? Easy...mod kill abuse 13 mason. Gig, mod kill op, plz nerf irelia

[DarknessB]

Marshall is only OP when OP options and roles are selected with it.

Also, when the scum are incapable of making up plausible role claims. Marshall is only as smart as the player controlling it -- sometimes you get a clean sweep, other times 3-4 Town die.

[Firebringer]

Skill is op, you gotta nerf skill.

Mods, make skill have less impact on the game to make it more fair.

How would you know skill is OP?
You need it first, right TDL? ;)

In serious: The Marshall is OP and gamebreaking but it is usually at host discretion how powerful to make it. I usually never have more than 3 executes for a day.

[AppleyNO]

Perhaps we shouldn't allow for the most OP options?

[DarknessB]

Perhaps we shouldn't allow for the most OP options?

I mean, the primary issue for most hosts is whether to allow the Marshall 4 lynches, but only 1 round, or 3 lynches and 2 rounds. The combination which causes the most disruption is 4 lynches, 2 rounds, especially if the scum are unable to kill the Marshall after the first round -- 8 lynches is a lot, lol.

Personally, I'd prefer if the settings be left the way they are -- i.e. give hosts the flexibility to craft the role as they choose. That seems more consistent with how other roles work where many roles can be made completely OP or useless based on tweaking game settings. For example, a Veteran with unlimited alerts (OP), a Sheriff who can't detect anything (useless), etc. I'd prefer to give hosts the ability to adjust the Marshall as they see fit because there could be more difficult setups where a more powerful Marshall would be perfectly balanced. Also, in the hands of an unseasoned player, the 4 lynch, 2 round Marshall is actually more dangerous for the Town sometimes.

[DarknessB]

How would you know skill is OP?
You need it first, right TDL? ;)

In serious: The Marshall is OP and gamebreaking but it is usually at host discretion how powerful to make it. I usually never have more than 3 executes for a day.

Your setup also has something like an average of two Spies expected per game for the Town. But that's why I'd argue hosts should have access to as many options as possible -- let them create their universe in terms of different roles and relative strengths. If someone's save sucks and is unbalanced, that person will develop a bad reputation and get repicked. There are plenty of other ways to ruin a setup other than by creating an OP Marshall -- e.g. unlimited alert Veteran, healable Mayor with tons of protectives, the ever annoying double Disguiser / Informant setup where the Mafia / Triad can take out 1/3 of the Town on Night 1, etc.

[Helz]

I like a Marshall that can do 2 executions of 2 players.

When I get 2 executions of 4 players and I know there is no judge I pretty much just identify 3 or so players I trust as town and lynch the entire lobby.

[Kelivia]

Until one of those 3 played you hard.

[marinebase7]

Marshall is too good for mafia. Redesignate as neutral evil and it is balanced.

[SlenderMan]

Marshall is too good for mafia. Redesignate as neutral evil and it is balanced.

He is there already. He is called The Judge

[DarknessB]

He is there already. He is called The Judge

Yes and no -- it's the difference between more votes / anonymity and more executions / being confirmed as Town.

[Helz]

He is unbalanced in some setups because some hosts allow him to be. The tools are in place to use him at all kinds of different levels and keep the setup balanced.

[Kelivia]

Let's make Marshall have NO voting power, but instead can direct Town who to vote. --Only when revealed.
/endjoke

Was Marshall OP in this save or am I OP

[Slaol]

Why is this thread even a thing. Marshall can be OP if there are OP options just like almost every role. But even if he is OP he can still be open to fucking over Town just as much as auto-winning for them. He is the most balanced role implemented since like Citizen, no matter what options he is given.

[marinebase7]

Why is this thread even a thing. Marshall can be OP if there are OP options just like almost every role. But even if he is OP he can still be open to fucking over Town just as much as auto-winning for them. He is the most balanced role implemented since like Citizen, no matter what options he is given.

"Every role is balanced. It's only OP if you let it be OP" is a bad way to balance things. You can have a singular OP role and have weaker options around it, yes but that doesn't mean that role isn't OP.

That being said I don't really have a problem with marshall considering the average IQ of this community. They end up lynching town for the most part anyway. Cult is way more annoying to deal with.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Meme: Op is a faggot

[DarknessB]

"Every role is balanced. It's only OP if you let it be OP" is a bad way to balance things. You can have a singular OP role and have weaker options around it, yes but that doesn't mean that role isn't OP.

That being said I don't really have a problem with marshall considering the average IQ of this community. They end up lynching town for the most part anyway. Cult is way more annoying to deal with.

It's the host's responsibility to balance roles -- the number of game options gives hosts the ability to make just about any role OP or useless. The only way to change this would be to eliminate most role options, which would make the game a lot more predictable and not let the host come up with interesting setups. And yes, you get troll hosts sometimes, but that's what -repick is for and even if you're unable to -repick, that problem isn't exclusive to Marshall at all.

Also, in terms of balance, there's nothing really wrong with a Marshall that has one round, four lynches or two rounds, three lynches (only really gets nuts with two rounds, four lynches). All the Marshall can do is ask for role claims -- scum should be able to make up decent fake claims / leads and avoid being lynched. And, as you point out, the fact that public SC2Mafia games are very casual means that you get fail Marshalls as much as Town steamroll ones. Just means that the game goes faster because there are a lot of quick lynches in succession.

[Mathmatical]

The marshall isn't OP. It all depends on the intelligence of the person playing the marshall. The marshall has the potential to ruin the game for the town or win the game for the town. sometimes the amount of town/triad/mafia/neutral will be mixed. i don't feel it is OP on the default settings. of corse if you set it to 2 group executions with 4 lynchings i would see your point. but thats not the default setting

[Stealthbomber16]

Imagine a world where we could have 3 Marshalls with 4 lynches 2 times.

[Slaol]

"Every role is balanced. It's only OP if you let it be OP" is a bad way to balance things. You can have a singular OP role and have weaker options around it, yes but that doesn't mean that role isn't OP.

That being said I don't really have a problem with marshall considering the average IQ of this community. They end up lynching town for the most part anyway. Cult is way more annoying to deal with.

Funny thing is that Marshall could be buffed to group lynch every day and hed still be more balanced than Sheriff.

[Stealthbomber16]

Funny thing is that Marshall could be buffed to group lynch every day and hed still be more balanced than Sheriff.

^^

[Stealthbomber16]

Tbh the best one is cultist. Ability to change alignment and abilities is deadly in the right hands.

[DarknessB]

if you set it to 2 group executions with 4 lynchings i would see your point. but thats not the default setting

That's actually how Marshall is configured in my save. I also increase the chances of a Judge rolling to counter the Marshall though. There's nothing wrong with powerful roles as long as there's a reason you're building them in that way and some semblance of balance for the other side. I can't tell you how many games I've seen where the Judge interrupts the "OP" Marshall and the Town gets wiped out lol.

[DarknessB]

Tbh the best one is cultist. Ability to change alignment and abilities is deadly in the right hands.

Stealth is back -- how's it going buddy? You ready to hit up some more S-FMs or not quite yet?

[Stealthbomber16]

Stealth is back -- how's it going buddy? You ready to hit up some more S-FMs or not quite yet?

No.
And no.
I'm just here because I have nothing else to do in the doctors office.

[SuperJack]

No.
And no.
I'm just here because I have nothing else to do in the doctors office.

I'm sorry. Tests show you have the mafia virus. You now feel you must visit sc2 mafia webpage at boring times.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'm sorry. Tests show you have the mafia virus. You now feel you must visit sc2 mafia webpage at boring times.

How to cure it?

[RMcD94]

"Every role is balanced. It's only OP if you let it be OP" is a bad way to balance things. You can have a singular OP role and have weaker options around it, yes but that doesn't mean that role isn't OP..

That's not even what he said.

He said that all roles have the possibility thanks to options to be overpowered.

I think that's wrong, if we hold everything equal and make it say a standard save of some sort it's hard to imagine things being able to be overpowered without including multiple of the same role. If you do it the other way and say 13 Godfather's and 2 Sheriffs is the Godfather really overpowered?

As such I think of all places it's very difficult to talk about overpowered without giving context in mafia. In a 7-3-5 each town role would have to pull more weight to keep town in with a chance of winning, so having the option of a strong marshall and having sheriff's invests, etc being able to detect everything would be almost necessary.

To be honest I think mafia could do with standardization of role options and allowing a meta to develop out of it.

[DarknessB]

No.
And no.
I'm just here because I have nothing else to do in the doctors office.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - come back!

[DarknessB]

How to cure it?

The only one who has been able to escape the Mafia Virus is himself. Speaking of which -- update on your search for him, Yuki?

[DarknessB]

That's not even what he said.

He said that all roles have the possibility thanks to options to be overpowered.

I think that's wrong, if we hold everything equal and make it say a standard save of some sort it's hard to imagine things being able to be overpowered without including multiple of the same role. If you do it the other way and say 13 Godfather's and 2 Sheriffs is the Godfather really overpowered?

As such I think of all places it's very difficult to talk about overpowered without giving context in mafia. In a 7-3-5 each town role would have to pull more weight to keep town in with a chance of winning, so having the option of a strong marshall and having sheriff's invests, etc being able to detect everything would be almost necessary.

To be honest I think mafia could do with standardization of role options and allowing a meta to develop out of it.

Given role options, it's very easy to make many roles either OP or nerf them:

• Sheriff: Can't detect anything (troll nerf)
• Vigilante: Unlimited shots (OP)
• Veteran: Unlimited alerts, ignores invulnerability (OP)
• Mayor: Can be healed, vote counts for 4, with a bunch of doctors (OP)
• Executioner: Must lynch target and survive until end, not night immune (nerf)
• Survivor: No vests (nerf)
• Judge: 2 courts, 4 votes each time (OP)
• Investigator: Detects exact role (OP)
• Any neutral killing: Take away night invulnerability (nerf)
• GF / DH: Can be detected, can be role blocked, can't kill without Mafioso / Enforcer (nerf)

I could go on, but hopefully, you get the idea.

[Kelivia]

I don't think people are understanding, that this thread was a joke and not meant to start anything.

[Elixir]

I wrote a long and detailed analysis of Marshall and its balance somewhere in R and D. If someone can find it they're welcome to repost it here.

[Stealthbomber16]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - come back!

I have a 2 week break soon.

Your body has gotta be ready.