Who designs the defaults and why are they all terrible?

[RMcD94]

Some idiot put on one of the defaults, it was teh one with 2 cults, 2 witches, etc.

Anyway, I had new players as part of the masons which I was recruited into, so after 3 MINUTE LONG NIGHTS, WITH NO DAY 1 DISCUSSION AND NO DISCUSSION AT ALL, it switched to tie breaker?!?!?! 3 CULTS VS 3 MASONS?? Anyway because one of my players is new they didn't vote and we lost it, (over the course of the next 10 minutes because of how long night is and that new players don't know how to suicide). But it doesn't matter, cause no matter who won, or drew, or whatever IT WAS THE WORST SAVE EVER. It's not interesting, it's not balanced, it's not fun for the SK, or for the masons, or for the citizens, or for the witches, or for the invests, or for anyone. It's also not quickly boring because even though there are zero important night tasks it gives you a full minute for night. AND YOU CAN'T SKIP THE TRIAL DAY.

Who the fuck designed that default? Why the shit would you limit masons to only 2 recruits. What the fuck is wrong with you?

FIFTY MINUTES OF SHIT SAVE FOR REFERENCE

If this is seriously your method of introducing new players into the game (which what else would defaults be for, new players are those who won't have saves after all), then you should just take a good hard look at whatever education attainment stage you lucked your way to and feel sorry for everyone else with that because of how much worse they look as being part of a group that includes yourself.

[SuperJack]

Don't mind a bit of criticism but there is no need to be rude. We will see if we can discuss the save.

[Yukitaka Oni]

You are allow to leave train in a game that is non-standard save you know? If you play that mean you accept the condition of his/her save lol

[DarknessB]

You are allow to leave train in a game that is non-standard save you know? If you play that mean you accept the condition of his/her save lol

Um, major correction here -- if you don't want to play a particular setup, you can quietly leave the game at the name screen or at any other time prior to receiving your role. Inciting a leave train (i.e. encouraging other players to leave as well) is never allowed -- others might want to play the odd setup and there's no benefit to causing everyone else to leave, such that no game can be played. On a similar note, leaving the game right after you receive a role is role qutting, another offense.

The game has a -repick function for a reason. If players don't like the host's proposed setup or the host picking SOTD or default, they should -repick someone with a more standard 9-3-3 type save. Sometimes, due to players being AFK or not paying attention, you get stuck with a substandard save. Not a big deal and maybe it won't be the best Mafia game, but doesn't give you carte blanche to start inciting leave trains or role qutting.

[Lysergic]

If this is seriously your method of introducing new players into the game (which what else would defaults be for, new players are those who won't have saves after all), then you should just take a good hard look at whatever education attainment stage you lucked your way to and feel sorry for everyone else with that because of how much worse they look as being part of a group that includes yourself.

Wow; I'm having a sodium overdose from how salty you're being here.

[RMcD94]

Don't mind a bit of criticism but there is no need to be rude. We will see if we can discuss the save.

Well I genuinely assumed that no one actually manually created these and so I may have made my post assuming that I was insulting an algorithm or something.

Edit: I mean even though my insults are targeted at people, in my mind I didn't think anyone made them, but I wasn't going to type that because shouting at an algorithm isn't as cathartic.

You are allow to leave train in a game that is non-standard save you know? If you play that mean you accept the condition of his/her save lol

Since when? Also this is "standard" it is default.

Um, major correction here -- if you don't want to play a particular setup, you can quietly leave the game at the name screen or at any other time prior to receiving your role. Inciting a leave train (i.e. encouraging other players to leave as well) is never allowed -- others might want to play the odd setup and there's no benefit to causing everyone else to leave, such that no game can be played. On a similar note, leaving the game right after you receive a role is role qutting, another offense.

The game has a -repick function for a reason. If players don't like the host's proposed setup or the host picking SOTD or default, they should -repick someone with a more standard 9-3-3 type save. Sometimes, due to players being AFK or not paying attention, you get stuck with a substandard save. Not a big deal and maybe it won't be the best Mafia game, but doesn't give you carte blanche to start inciting leave trains or role qutting.

The repick function fails on a number of levels 1) no one pays attention because lobbies take forever to load 2) people don't know when they should repick 3) even if people are paying attention they don't know when to repick (ie much of the quality of a save is not visible from the screen) 4) some people are new 5) some people hate other people and want to force leave trains/deliberately have bad saves

Wow; I'm having a sodium overdose from how salty you're being here.

alright m8 fantastic input in this discussion real glad we have you here. oh look this guy is salty he actually cares about the quality of the defaults haha, sodium dose right guys? get it SALT hahahaha NaCl get it guys? Sodium is in salt hahahahahaahahaha hWOW BOY IM SO FUNNY CANT WAIT TO SEE HOW PEOPLE RATE MY FORUM COMMENT. better go back to zero conversation on this forum woooboy

[SuperJack]

Well ignoring the non-helpful comments. What we have to do is get a copy of the options for this default and then suggest and discuss possible 're-balancing.

But until we do that. Mind discussing the main issues with it in a more explained way, along with suggestions and reasoning for changes?

[Lysergic]

Well I genuinely assumed that no one actually manually created these and so I may have made my post assuming that I was insulting an algorithm or something.

Everything in the map is manually crafted.

Edit: I mean even though my insults are targeted at people, in my mind I didn't think anyone made them, but I wasn't going to type that because shouting at an algorithm isn't as cathartic.

But shitting on other people's setups clearly is.

The repick function fails on a number of levels 1) no one pays attention because lobbies take forever to load 2) people don't know when they should repick 3) even if people are paying attention they don't know when to repick (ie much of the quality of a save is not visible from the screen) 4) some people are new 5) some people hate other people and want to force leave trains/deliberately have bad saves

I've been playing this map for years and years, and have literally NEVER had trouble repicking a crappy host. There are multiple things working behind the scenes to make that happen, including weighting people's repick with higher points / donor status / staff status (i.e. a bunch of brand new players will not have the same repick power as a few more experienced players). I've played hundreds of games, and people always repick crappy hosts.

It seems like you're looking for an excuse to be angry, hence my comment above. Or is this about ethics in journalism or some hogwash?

alright m8 fantastic input in this discussion real glad we have you here. oh look this guy is salty he actually cares about the quality of the defaults haha, sodium dose right guys? get it SALT hahahaha NaCl get it guys? Sodium is in salt hahahahahaahahaha hWOW BOY IM SO FUNNY CANT WAIT TO SEE HOW PEOPLE RATE MY FORUM COMMENT. better go back to zero conversation on this forum woooboy

I mean, I am pretty funny. Glad I could make you chuckle.

RE: the original topic, I actually like the weird default setups. Is your suggestion that every default setup be a 9-3-3 boring save? Because there's no shortage of those. The standard setups are there for new players, yes, but they are also there for variety.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Um, major correction here -- if you don't want to play a particular setup, you can quietly leave the game at the name screen or at any other time prior to receiving your role. Inciting a leave train (i.e. encouraging other players to leave as well) is never allowed -- others might want to play the odd setup and there's no benefit to causing everyone else to leave, such that no game can be played. On a similar note, leaving the game right after you receive a role is role qutting, another offense.

The game has a -repick function for a reason. If players don't like the host's proposed setup or the host picking SOTD or default, they should -repick someone with a more standard 9-3-3 type save. Sometimes, due to players being AFK or not paying attention, you get stuck with a substandard save. Not a big deal and maybe it won't be the best Mafia game, but doesn't give you carte blanche to start inciting leave trains or role qutting.

But I mean come on, some game like 1 arsonist and 14 coroner or 14 mafia 1 town is basically have no hope

[RMcD94]

Well ignoring the non-helpful comments. What we have to do is get a copy of the options for this default and then suggest and discuss possible 're-balancing.

But until we do that. Mind discussing the main issues with it in a more explained way, along with suggestions and reasoning for changes?

I attached the save for the exact purpose of discussing it.

Everything in the map is manually crafted.



But shitting on other people's setups clearly is.

And I shit on other peoples setups all the time when they are shit, I was just saying in this situation that I figured no one genuinely designed them.

I've been playing this map for years and years, and have literally NEVER had trouble repicking a crappy host. There are multiple things working behind the scenes to make that happen, including weighting people's repick with higher points / donor status / staff status (i.e. a bunch of brand new players will not have the same repick power as a few more experienced players). I've played hundreds of games, and people always repick crappy hosts.

Well lucky you.

It seems like you're looking for an excuse to be angry, hence my comment above. Or is this about ethics in journalism or some hogwash?

I do not need to look for a reason to be angry when playing mafia or in life in general.

I mean, I am pretty funny. Glad I could make you chuckle.

RE: the original topic, I actually like the weird default setups. Is your suggestion that every default setup be a 9-3-3 boring save? Because there's no shortage of those. The standard setups are there for new players, yes, but they are also there for variety.

See this is the strawman I disagree with, hence why I said the save is boring and not balanced, rather than it was 9-3-3. 9-3-3 does get boring after a while I agree. There are other balanced save possibilities I do not doubt. Having both triad and mafia and neutrals is going to be a different save.

None the less, outside of balance issues, there are clear flaws in the design of the game like not having day 1 discussion, and having hugely long nights when there is no real designs to make. I understand people can make balance problems like including a Judge in a 9-3-3 save without a Crier, or having 3 neutral randoms in 9-3-3 and so having a stupid amount of variance. but there is general logic to the set up like relying on a single SK to avoid a draw scenario...

[SuperJack]

I think the long nights are so that both Mason and Cult can discuss what to do, who is what, plans ect.
It is a discussion based game after all ^^

[RMcD94]

There is next to no need for discussion when there is no ability people have to detect or to perform multiple actions. There is only information asymmetry when a new person joins the cult/masons, and they should already have a last will summarising that information.

Compared to say, having a mafia or triad, where there are 3 people with unique roles and unique actions who have to coordinate their actions and where each night three will have information others will lack, and even then you never see a minute nights in mafia games.

Remember in this save I was a member of the masons so I know fine well there was nothing to discuss. I can't imagine how horrid it was for those who didn't have things to do.

[Helz]

To answer some of your questions:

-These "Setups" were submitted by the community. When you go to SOTD Advanced you will get more complicated saves that at a glace can seem really weird but work well in practice. Most of them force specific play styles for specific alignments so nobody will ever be happy with everything.

-Long nights can be useful for players who actually coordinate and analyze player interactions to gain an edge in their moves. Even if there is no night action other than recruiting or healing for the cult they can still discuss who to mislynch, how to push that mislynch, what role specific players have, what alignment specific players have, and who is a real threat. Theres mountains of ways to use a night chat. Just because you do not find a use for an extended night length when you have no action to take does not mean it is useless. It is in the game for a reason.

I understand that you had a bad experience there but not every player will enjoy every setup. They exist as a pool of setups to play from for varied experiences. I would suggest repicking the host next time or communicating with the other players to give host powers to a player with a good custom setup.

[marinebase7]

Cult is just a bad role tbh.

[RMcD94]

To answer some of your questions:

-These "Setups" were submitted by the community. When you go to SOTD Advanced you will get more complicated saves that at a glace can seem really weird but work well in practice. Most of them force specific play styles for specific alignments so nobody will ever be happy with everything.

Who plays these? The mafia chat group is dead on America and Europe, the mafia custom games almost only play saves unless the host is trolling. How exactly are you determining they are well balanced without a large play sample? Also they all are without question weird, and you cannot tell at a glance because it is all ??? and I have zero experience ever having them work well

-Long nights can be useful for players who actually coordinate and analyze player interactions to gain an edge in their moves. Even if there is no night action other than recruiting or healing for the cult they can still discuss who to mislynch, how to push that mislynch, what role specific players have, what alignment specific players have, and who is a real threat. Theres mountains of ways to use a night chat. Just because you do not find a use for an extended night length when you have no action to take does not mean it is useless. It is in the game for a reason.

BY THIS LOGIC ALL SAVES SHOULD HAVE TWO MINUTES NIGHTS. YOU'VE COMPLETELY IGNORED MY POINT.

Everything that holds for cult HOLDS TENFOLD for mafia, and yet every save that people actually play NEVER have 1 minute nights. "Also it is in the game for a reason" what a shitty fucking argument. What save would you advocate maximum night length? I would hope nothing, but after reading what you said I bet you think that's a genius idea.

When you go to SOTD Advanced you will get more complicated saves that at a glace can seem really weird but work well in practice

I understand that you had a bad experience there but not every player will enjoy every setup. They exist as a pool of setups to play from for varied experiences. I would suggest repicking the host next time or communicating with the other players to give host powers to a player with a good custom setup.

hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahah

Yeah because 1) this implies that you can tell what the SotD is before you play it (that's a falsehood straight up for SOTDS) 2) that YOU CAN EVEN REPICK 3) that I didn't attempt to get people to repick IN THE VERY REPLAY WE'RE DISCUSSING. THE VERY FIRST WORD I SAY IS REPICK 15, THEN I SAY EVERYONE REPICK.

PLUS THIS WAS FUCKING DARK HERESY NOT SOTD ANYWAY. Jesus Christ. What's the fucking point in even posting a replay if fucks like you are just going to come in spieling off how they view the world without doing the remotest amount of effort to actually know anything about what they're talking about. You're just like people who comment on articles after reading the headline.

[Helz]

First off- Calm down. There is no need to be hostile. Nobody owes you an explanation here or has to deal with your attitude. Please relax and stay civil.

When the SOTD mechanic came out they were regularly updated. There was a list of the saves with a massive pool of other setups submitted and week after week rev would take input and adjust them for balance, change priority weight of each setup, and sometimes totally remove or add setups. He did a lot of work on this and the end product is pretty nice. Its not what you would get from a blockbuster game company but it is pretty top of the line stuff for a Starcraft mod.

I understand your 2nd point but you are saying "Because I play this way the night length is excessive and useless." For you this may be true, other experienced player might make use of that night length as I have described. And I do not think every games day/night length should be maxed out because honestly- No setup thats on the SC mod is balanced. If you had enough time and people that were patient and intelligent scum would never stand a chance. This is why you constantly see town winning in setups of:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Mafioso
Mafioso
In every SC2 Mod the town is insanely overpowered. The reason it seems balanced is that its balanced to account for the players meta. Some people are just going to rolequit, afk, or barely read chat and wait for their chance to smash that shiny little power role button. To answer your final question I would absolutely love to play a game sometime with a bunch of FM players and maxed out day/night length. I think that would be a ton of fun for a setup but very dependent on having strong experienced players that have played enough to cry when they roll Citizen. All that said- I am not ignoring your point. I am saying that I disagree with it and just because you can not understand the value in something because of your particular play style does not mean there is none.

Players get to vote. You can not always have your way. That is just something you will have to accept. I will also point out that the map is not really "Under development" at the moment. Rev has been kind enough to fix some game breaking bugs as they come up and to update the map every now and then but he has a lot going on in his life. There is a possibility that a Mafia 2.0 map will be created but nothing is for sure yet. That said- Altering the mason count will probably not happen and even if it got changed Cult/Mason setups have massive swing to them so I doubt that everyone would ever be happy with the balance.

I hope I answered some of your questions. If you have more please keep that attitude in check while posting.

Cult is just a bad role tbh.

Mason/Cult saves are extremely questionable on many FM websites. You will see many sites totally cut them out and many players avoid signing up for games if they see cult/mason mechanics (With converting) involved in the setup. No matter what you do with it it can create a massive swing in the game that can not really be countered, or if you build a save to account for that massive cult swing the 1 cult can die N1 without converting and then you have an extremely overpowered town even by SC2 standards that just steamrolls the game. A good example is in the cross community game thats being setup between our forum and 2 others right now, it was specifically asked that there should be no cult mechanics before the setup was accepted.