M-FM Fringe

[SuperJack]

The two universes are in danger, the Terrorist organisation known as the ZFT are threatening to release their weapons of science, also known as The Pattern to take control of both worlds, in a deluded attempt to protect it from the future.
Signings of William Bell have been reported playing God have also been reported.
It has been task to the Fringe Division to investigate any science-related crimes and the identification, investigation, and research of the bizarre scientific phenomena collectively known as the Pattern through the application of fringe science.

Roles List

David Robert Jones
Hidden ZFT
Hidden ZFT
Hidden ZFT

Fringe Agent
Fringe Agent
Fringe Agent
Fringe Agent
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian
Hidden Civilian

William Bell

Fringe Agent = Exclude Citizen
Hidden Civilian = Any Town Role
Hidden ZFT = Any ZFT Role (Excluding Godfather)

Role Cards

Spoiler : Role Cards :

Town

Spoiler : Town :

Sheriff
Check a player from your universe at night. You will learn the player's alignment. Town/ZFT
-Your target is a member of ZFT.

Detective
Track a player at night from your universe. You will learn the first player that they visited.
Your Track will bypass invisibility.
-Your target visited x.

Journalist
Interview a player during the day from your universe.
At the start of the following night the player will be notified of the interview and will write an Article for you to anonymously publish the following morning.
You may not Interview yourself.
You may send a message with your interview.
Article is revealed in both Universes.
-You have received an interview:
MESSAGE

Doctor
Heal a player from your universe at night. This player can survive an additional attack at night.
You can not heal yourself.
You are informed of successful healing.
-You successfully healed your target last night.

Bus Driver
Swap 2 players from separate universes at night. Those that visit one will effect the other.
You may not swap yourself.
Targets are notified
-You were transported to another universe last night.

Escort
Role Block a player at night from your universe. This prevents them from using their action.
You can not Role Block yourself

Jailor
Jail a player during the day from your universe.
You may only Jail following days in which a player was not lynched in your universe.
They are removed from any night chat the following night.
They are prevented from acting that night, regardless of Immunity to role block.
They are prevented from taking damage from basic kills and/or being charged.
They are prevented from changing universe.
You may anonymous interrogate them.
You may Execute them.
Executions bypass all Invulnerability.
Captives are released at the start of the next day.
You may not Jail yourself.
-You have X charges remaining.
-You are in Jail:
-You were executed.
-You were released last night.
-You went to execute your captive last night.

Vigilante
Shoot someone at night from your universe and attempt to kill them.
You may not shoot yourself. 3x Charges.
You are not informed of immune roles.
-You went to shoot your target last night, x charges remaining.


Veteran
Alert at night to kill all visitors.
The kill can pierce immunity.
Can not be role-blocked whilst on alert.
Immune to kill/charge whilst on alert.
X charges
-You went on alert last night, x charges remain.

Architect
Target two players in any universe during the day, giving them access to an anonymous chat the following night and following day.
Can not target self.
One Introduction post for start of Architect chat.
Architect can read the chat. But not talk.
-You have been put into an anonymous call:
MESSAGE

Mayor (1 Maximum)
Reveal yourself during the day, increasing your vote power too 3 votes.
Can not be healed

Spy
Can read the other universes day chat. (But not post in it)
At night, you can detect which universe ZFT are left in each universe. (X Charges)
You are not told which universe.
There are x and x ZFT left. x charges remaining.
-You have x charges remaining.

Transporter
Move 1 person from any universe at night.
Can not target self.
-You were transported to another universe last night.
-You have x charges remaining.

Enhanced Citizen
Can move freely between universes at night. (X charges)
-You were transported to another universe last night.
-You have x charges remaining.

Marshall (1 Maximum)
Action: Reveal yourself during the day. (2 Charges)
When revealed: 1 Lynch can occur in each universe that day.
When revealed: You are Immune to Lynch day you activate.

Citizen
No night action.

Zerstörung durch Fortschritte der Technologie (ZFT)

Spoiler : ZFT :

-You went to kill your target.

David Robert Jones (Godfather)
Immune to Detection or Immune to Night kill. Chosen on night one.
Can be sent for the factional night kill.
-You where attacked last night.
-You went to kill your target.

Kidnapper
Jail a player during the day from your universe.
You may only Jail following days in which a player was not lynched in your universe.
They are removed from any night chat the following night.
They are prevented from acting that night, regardless of Immunity to role block.
They are prevented from taking damage from basic kills and/or being charged.
They are prevented from changing universe.
You may anonymous interrogate them.
You may Execute them. (One Charge)
Executions bypass all Invulnerability.
Captives are released at the start of the next day.
You may not Jail yourself.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You are in Jail:
-You were executed.
-You were released last night.
-You went to execute your captive last night.

Tracker
Track a player at night from your universe. You will learn the first player that they visited.,
or
Watch a player from your universe at night. You will observe all players that visit the Watched player.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-Your target was visited by x, y, z.
-Your target visited x.

Chauffeur
Swap 2 players from separate universes at night. Those that visit one will effect the other.
You may not swap yourself.
Targets are notified
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You were transported to another universe last night.

Consort
Role Block a player at night from your universe. This prevents them from using their action.
You can not Role Block yourself.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.

Consigliere
Inspect a player at night to learn their role from your universe.
William Bell and David Robert Jones will both show up as Citizens.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-Your target is a xxx.

Framer
Frame a player from your universe at night to appear to be ZFT or visiting a player of your choice.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You framed your target as xxx, visiting x.

Beguiler
Hide behind a target at night in the other universe.
Any night actions targeted at you will affect the target you hid behind.
3x Charges of hiding.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You hid behind x last night, x charged remaining.

Bruiser
Target one player at night in exchange for the faction kill, killing them.
This attack bypasses all healing, all misdirection, and immunities.
One use.
-You went to kill your target.

Corrupted Spy
Can read the other universes day chat.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.

Corrupted Enhanced Citizen
Can move freely between universes at night. (X charges)
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You were transported to another universe last night.
-You have x charges remaining.

Corrupt Journalist
Interview a player during the day from your universe.
At the start of the following night the player will be notified of the interview and will write an Article for you to anonymously publish the following morning.
You may not Interview yourself.
You may send a message with your interview.
Article is revealed in both Universes.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You have received an interview:
MESSAGE

Corrupt Architect
Target two players in any universe during the day, giving them access to an anonymous chat the following night and following day.
Can not target self.
You can read the Architect chat. But not talk.
One Introduction post for start of Architect chat.
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.
-You have been put into an anonymous call:
MESSAGE

Witch
Target one player at night from your universe, forcing them to visit another first target of your choice.
Targets are informed of Witching.
-You where witched last night.

Mafioso
Can be sent for the factional night kill in exchange for night action.

William Bell

Spoiler : William Bell :

William Bell
At night Charge 1 person in each Universe.
If one player is charged twice, they will overload and die.
Charged players will overload if they interact with (visit or are visited by) other charged players.
You are immune to death from your own charges.
You are immune to Night kill.
You are immune to Roleblock.
You can not charge yourself.
Overloads remove Shock charges from any players that survive.
You can switch universe at night.
-You went to charge your targets last night.
-You were transported to another universe last night.

Win Conditions
Town- Eliminate William Bell + ZFT
ZFT- Eliminate Town + William Bell
William Bell- Eliminate / Be Soul Survivor of at-least 1 Universe and Survive

Order of Operations
0.1 Jailing>Kidnapping
0.2 Night chats open (Mafia, Architect, Jail, Kidnap)
0.3 Journalist/Corrupt Journalist Interviews
1. Witch Controls
2. Veteran Alerts
3. Bus Driver>Chauffeur>Beguiler
4. Roleblocks (Can Roleblock Witches & Un-Transported Bus Drivers ^ Chauffeurs Directly)
5. Framer/Drugdeal/Actress
6. Investigations (See all movements from 2 and onwards)
7. William Bell Charges
8. Kills (-1) (Vet, Vig, OverCharge, Mafia Faction Kill, Disguiser)
9. Heals (+1)
10. Jailor/Kidnapper executes
11. Enhanced Citizen/Currupt Citizen/William Bell Universe Switch (Even if dead)
12. Transporter
13. Universe Collapse and Kill. (-23)

Special Mechanics
-Two Day Chats: Universe Prime & Universe Alternate. (Start with 10 in each)
-Lynch: Majority. Only 1 Lynch (Whichever Universe gets most votes, If same votes there will be no-lynch)
-Roles can only target players in the same Universe unless specified otherwise.
-If A universe is left with two players in, or just the William Bell, the universe will be sealed off and collapse killing anyone who is not William Bell.

Mechanics
-Lynch is set to highest vote over the two universes.
-Votes are only counted at the end of the day.
-If both universes have the same amount of votes. No lynch occurs.
-Days after are 48 hours. Nights are 24 hours.
-Day One is 72 hour day.
-Day One's first 24 hour, everyone shares One universe. After 24 hours the Universes are separate.
-Last Wills are Allowed.
-Mafia have a 24/7 Chat
-Any Mafia member may be send for the Mafia Faction kill in exchange for their night action.

Rules of Conduct
1. No out of game communication.
2. No quoting host private messages. Or Direct Copying.
3. No COM claiming.
4. No COM hunting.
5. You may not post URLs or lead other players to other sites or pages.
6. You may not post pictures, videos, or any other media. Unless you have my permission.
7. Activity is a must. If for any reason not, send me a PM and just let me know.
8. No abusive harassment. PM me any problems.
9. No Password Protected Posts.
10. These FM rules also apply.
11. All questions to host to be ask in green with a @SuperJack tag. Host may or may not answer them.

FAQ

Spoiler : FAQ :

This mean he can be lynched also? Also does it mean multiple lynches in the day?
Wording will be bad for now, these are scribble notes. But to answer your question, He will be Immune to being lynched for that day, and it will mean both universes can have a lynch, instead of just one of them.
FIXED

Fringe Agent = Town Power Role?
Yes
FIXED INTO OP

Can players in one Universe read day posts from other Universes?
Nope. Both universes will be private. The only role that can read both is spy/corrupted spy.

How exactly will you moderate people viewing the different day chats?
Will have them both private.

Won't it be pretty clear who the Rouge Observer is after he switches universes at night?
Yes/No. There are other roles which can switch universe which may be included in the setup.

Multiple Mayors / Marshalls?
Only 1 per role. Maximum.
FIXED INTO OP

Can the ZTF do a factional kill in each universe?
No, they only get 1 for both. So choose wisely.

Do ZTF know who each other are?
Yes. It will be revealed to them when day 1 starts [The game starts day 1]

Do the ZTF share a night chat?
Yes. They can all communicate together. (RP: Ghost Network)

For night kills does it have to be someone who is in that universe to perform it?
Yes

If a universe is closed off does that mean that player will move to the other occupied universe? Or is it game over if say ZFT is sole survivor in that?
I'm going to just rework this one. Just to make sure no freaky universe endings happen
FIXED INTO OP

Will we be notified the vote count of universes in order to prevent accidental no lynches? (considering the Day chats are separate.)
Nope. Its up to town to work a way around this.

Can a universe vote skip?
Nope.

When players die are their roles revealed in both universes?
Nope, just the universe they died in.

Are we informed if their was a lynch in other universe if their wasn't in our own?
Nope

If Two Mafia are the only ones in one universe how are they supposed to win? This would be odd to transfer both of them to other universe without revealing they are obviously evil.
I might make it so that, with 2 people left in the a Universe, the Universe will collapse
FIXED INTO OP

[Firebringer]

Interesting concept.

The role cards definitely need to be fleshed out, especially the names :P

One question so far:

Can allowed lynch in both universes when revealed (charges?)

This mean he can be lynched also? Also does it mean multiple lynches in the day?

The wording on that is bad.

How about a unique role that can be mafia or town that can also switch universes to actually vote in the other day chat for one day. With limited charges (can't vote in previous universe while active)

[SuperJack]

Interesting concept.

The role cards definitely need to be fleshed out, especially the names :P

One question so far:

This mean he can be lynched also? Also does it mean multiple lynches in the day?
Wording will be bad for now, these are scribble notes. But to answer your question, He will be Immune to being lynched for that day, and it will mean both universes can have a lynch, instead of just one of them

The wording on that is bad.

How about a unique role that can be mafia or town that can also switch universes to actually vote in the other day chat for one day. With limited charges (can't vote in previous universe while active)
I like it, but I want to leave Universe movement for night. Just for the ease of hosting.

Answered in blue.

[SuperJack]

Orpz, if I work on this tonight, would I be able to submit it?
I'm done with the rolecards, just need to work on the OoO, write the mechanics clearly, and maybe fiddle with a bit of role play.

[SuperJack]

.... I'm gonna have to add a Bruno op role now.

[Orpz]

Orpz, if I work on this tonight, would I be able to submit it?
I'm done with the rolecards, just need to work on the OoO, write the mechanics clearly, and maybe fiddle with a bit of role play.

Sorry, you have to wait until next M-FM poll to submit it.

However, I would be glad to help you (and anyone else interested!) on the revision process to make it more appealing for the next poll.

[SuperJack]

But submissions don't close untill the 14th :'(

I know its not appealing now ^^ Its not finished.

[Cryptonic]

Do Jesus and God win together?

[Hypersniper]

Do Jesus and God win together?

dude wrong thread lol

[Cryptonic]

dude wrong thread lol

Whoops, right thread, wrong multiverse

[deathworlds]

Fringe Agent = Town Power Role?

[SuperJack]

Fringe Agent = Town Power Role?

Yus. But the civilian might be a power role also.
also, when I'm home I'm adding a Mafioso to the role list. Just in case I need to depower the mafia for balance reasons.

[SuperJack]

I am ready for it to be reviewed.

[Orpz]

Can players in one Universe read day posts from other Universes?

[deathworlds]

How exactly will you moderate people viewing the different day chats?
Will have them both private.

Won't it be pretty clear who the Rouge Observer is after he switches universes at night?
Yes/No. There are other roles which can switch universe which may be included in the setup.

Multiple Mayors / Marshalls?Only 1 per role. Maximum.

Can the ZTF do a factional kill in each universe?
No, they only get 1 for both. So choose wisely.
Do ZTF know who each other are? Yes. It will be revealed to them when day 1 starts [The game starts day 1]

Do the ZTF share a night chat?Yes. They can all communicate together. (RP: Ghost Network)

[SuperJack]

Can players in one Universe read day posts from other Universes?

Nope. Both universes will be private. The only role that can read both is spy/corrupted spy.

[SuperJack]

Lol shit. Sorry deathworlds. I accidently edited instead of quoting. My bad.

[Firebringer]

A few questions so far:

For night kills does it have to be someone who is in that universe to perform it?

If a universe is closed off does that mean that player will move to the other occupied universe? Or is it game over if say ZFT is sole survivor in that?

Will we be notified the vote count of universes in order to prevent accidental no lynches? (considering the Day chats are separate.)

Can a universe vote skip?





Suggestions:
Make Godfather role block immune. Also make 1 town role and Rogue Observer
immune to Roleblock.

What happened to special roles that interacted with the universes? I see a few but not as many as before.

To nerf Mayor a bit, have a corrupt mayor in other universe that also reveals whenever the mayor in one goes off so say. Prime Universe Mayor reveals, then Alternate Universe (which is a ZFT) reveals also.

Just a thought.

[SuperJack]

A few questions so far:

For night kills does it have to be someone who is in that universe to perform it?
Yss

If a universe is closed off does that mean that player will move to the other occupied universe? Or is it game over if say ZFT is sole survivor in that?
I'm going to just rework this one. Just to make sure no freaky universe endings happen

Will we be notified the vote count of universes in order to prevent accidental no lynches? (considering the Day chats are separate.)
Nope. Its up to town to work a way around this.

Can a universe vote skip?
Nope.





Suggestions:
Make Godfather role block immune.No, And why?
Also make 1 town role and Rogue Observer immune to Roleblock. Why? Perhaps the Rogue Observer

What happened to special roles that interacted with the universes? I see a few but not as many as before.
They got re-worked and renamed. Begulier, Bus Driver, Transporter, Marshall, Enchance Citizen (Couldnt think of a better name) Spy, and a few other roles can effect the other universe also.

To nerf Mayor a bit, have a corrupt mayor in other universe that also reveals whenever the mayor in one goes off so say. Prime Universe Mayor reveals, then Alternate Universe (which is a ZFT) reveals also.
No, because in the Alternative Universe, ZFT mayor would be op. But I will nerf the Mayor

Just a thought.

Blue

[deathworlds]

Lol shit. Sorry deathworlds. I accidently edited instead of quoting. My bad.

Lol it's aight.

[Firebringer]

When players die are their roles revealed in both universes?

Are we informed if their was a lynch in other universe if their wasn't in our own?

If Two Mafia are the only ones in one universe how are they supposed to win? This would be odd to transfer both of them to other universe without revealing they are obviously evil.





Perhaps just merge the universes when their are around 8-10 players total?

[SuperJack]

When players die are their roles revealed in both universes?
Nope

Are we informed if their was a lynch in other universe if their wasn't in our own?
Nope

If Two Mafia are the only ones in one universe how are they supposed to win? This would be odd to transfer both of them to other universe without revealing they are obviously evil.
I might make it so that, with 2 people left in the a Universe, the Universe will collapse




Perhaps just merge the universes when their are around 8-10 players total?
No, Or else I will have to rewrite the Rogue Observer

Blue

[SuperJack]

Any more questions? Orpz?

[Orpz]

It looks completed and balanced well enough to enter a poll I would say, however, that is seems like Town has a huge edge because of the lack of secure KPN's.

You can enter this into the next poll but do know that should you win, the setup will be more rigorously reviewed in order to ensure complete balance among all factions.

[SuperJack]

What do you mean by secure KPNs?

[SuperJack]

Some things I wish to do:
Add Witch, Disguiser, Ventriloquists. Perhaps Janitor/Coroner/Lawyer/Tailor role.

Some things I wish to discuss:

Consider adding in some neutral roles. Good Idea or Bad Idea?

[Firebringer]

Some things I wish to do:
Add Witch, Disguiser, Ventriloquists. Perhaps Janitor/Coroner/Lawyer/Tailor role.

Some things I wish to discuss:

Consider adding in some neutral roles. Good Idea or Bad Idea?

Neutral Roles = Awesome!

[SuperJack]

Bump

[Frog]

Thanks for the bump, giving it a read.

*notes*

First thoughts:
1. on first glance no major breaks in balance with semi-open distribution
2. 40 potential roles is overkill

Actually reading through specifics now.

First read as I'm going through:
- the two universes concept is interesting and I'll look into this more. It's essentially 2 10 player games
- can players from universa A read posts in universe B?
- I noticed in OoO that witch is immune to veteran alerts, and so are witches targets that are sent to veteran - this correct?
- I noticed Jailor takes priority over kidnapper - I need to read more to figure if the balance makes sense.
- more questions about Jailor/kidnapper- if 2 jailors/kidnappers target the same target, do they all share a room? Shouldn't the target be immune to execution since it's double jailed? If a target is jailed/kidnapped - does the Jailor visit the target? Or does the target visit the Jailor?

- read the FAQ : the fact that Universe A and B can't read each other's posts but are still connected is very tilting, but I'll keep reading to see how it comes together.

-plenty of questions about roles and interactions left, but I'll wait until roles list is finalized and set

[SuperJack]

Yes I wanted the game to be two ten people games which have the ability too cross over.

Witch will basically active the vet ability, not die to vet. But any role controlled by the witch remains in their original ooo position.

Jailor Vs kidnapper can be change easily.

Same jail target= same room. Not immune to execution. Target visits the jailer cause he has the kinky tie ups n stuff.

[Frog]

Yes I wanted the game to be two ten people games which have the ability too cross over.

Witch will basically active the vet ability, not die to vet. But any role controlled by the witch remains in their original ooo position.

Jailor Vs kidnapper can be change easily.

Same jail target= same room. Not immune to execution. Target visits the jailer cause he has the kinky tie ups n stuff.

I really like the concept - I can see where you were going with it.

There's a 120+ game idea that had a similar premise- the host began testing some aspects in games all year. The multiple worlds and how they merge was something similar. To ensure balance on merge, he implemented variable roles that transformed one way or another on merge.

I'll shoot the link here for something to look into - if not for this game maybe something in the future:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...Concept-Thread

[SuperJack]

Moine was firsr OMG he stole it ;)
The reason why both universes are private is because I wanted there to be at least some darkness between them. If they where both open it might just end up them trying to play cross thread, especially since they share a lynch.

[Frog]

Moine was firsr OMG he stole it ;)
The reason why both universes are private is because I wanted there to be at least some darkness between them. If they where both open it might just end up them trying to play cross thread, especially since they share a lynch.

The shared lynch coupled with not seeing the other world really concerns me because of this mechanic:
-If both universes have lynch over 51% but same amount of votes. No lynch occurs.

Overall it 'appears' Mafia sided, not just because of the reasons stated above.

The godfather being detection immune and bulletproof vs. The neutral killing who is bulletproof and unroleblockable - in a 10 person game it's very tough for the neutral killing to avoid being detected at night. If it were larger the mechanics may be balanced - it's very tough to gauge balance with so many roles.

Overall I see this setup as pretty anti-town. The solution of adding more TPRs risks turning it into a mechanical hand holding game which locks scum fairly quickly.

[Frog]

Thinking of how to keep the premise but balance it:
- step 1 would be narrowing down the role list
I'll give my opinions on what I would cut

- step 2 playing out different setups with those limited roles in mind to see how the mechanics balance for all sides
Off the top of my head I'd allow both worlds to see final votes of both worlds at the start of each night. *preferably all votes throughout the day shown only at the end of the night

[SuperJack]

I'll look at this when I get home. It's been something that's constantly being bugging me for a while but Ive not had someone to brainstorm with =)

[SuperJack]

I'm thinking of an extra 24 hours at the start of day 1 where everyone shares one universe. And after that 24 hours is up the universe splits into two.

[Frog]

It looks completed and balanced well enough to enter a poll I would say, however, that is seems like Town has a huge edge because of the lack of secure KPN's.

You can enter this into the next poll but do know that should you win, the setup will be more rigorously reviewed in order to ensure complete balance among all factions.

Any setup with protectives in play has the same KPN potential.
I'm assuming SJ would balance accordingly.

Maybe you're talking about the rogue observer KPN?
That KPN is on the lower end and may not even result in strategically optimal kills for the Rogue Observer.

I wouldn't say that gives town an edge outright - it just makes it very difficult for Rogue Observer.

[Frog]

I'm thinking of an extra 24 hours at the start of day 1 where everyone shares one universe. And after that 24 hours is up the universe splits into two.

That would be about equal for both town and Mafia, but kind of puts the neuts at a disadvantage.

Town can discuss strategy and what their play will be like.
Mafia can set up counter strategy amongst themselves to spew D1.
Neuts don't gain anything there really.

[SuperJack]

SJ loves to balance games. Especially for Coroners.

[Frog]

I realize that because there are 2 separate 10 player worlds, loading up TPRs kill it

Talking about TPRs - I'd remove Roleblock feedback as it has the potential to quickly lock a game with confirmable town blocs.

I'd also get rid of feedback regarding doctors for similar reasons.
Doctor can be informed that their target was attacked if you want to give them a buff.
Successful targets of being healed shouldn't be informed.
Bulletproof roles should be informed of being attacked.

[Frog]

SJ loves to balance games. Especially for Coroners.

Coroner with weak modifier and no tailors/actresses is GOAT :-D

[Frog]

At the end of the day- it's 2 10 player games. I'm finding it hard to justify seeing some of these advanced roles in the lineup.

An example of a balanced 9er, for example, is
2 Mafia goons
6 town
1 Night Zero Alignment Cop

Now making it a 10er with an added neutral makes it slightly anti town.

I'm seeing the average 10er here, that you described, being:
1.5 Power Mafia
.5 basic Mafia
1 neutral (anti-town based on average setup)
.5 neutral killing
4.5 vanilla
2 TPR

I think the neutral benign a have to either go or be limited to just 1 with fewer options there.

I think the neutral killing role and mechanics needs to be revised.

I'd see balance more like this on average:
1 Mafia Power Role
1 Mafia Vanilla
1 Neutral
5 Vanilla town
2 TPR

The neutral really needs to be neutral - without incentive to help either side. I'd see survivor being naturally pro-scum with this balance for example. Jester is anti-town as is. Need to think on what neutral role guarantees balance, but I think it's as simple as a variable role. Something like - whichever player is lynched in your universe first, you become aligned to their win condition. If no player is ever lynched ever in your universe, you lose. If you are the first lynch, random player on your lynch dies and you lose. Think that keeps it balanced and gives incentive for the neutral to play.

[Frog]

I'm thinking strong TPRs need to be very limited.

2 strong TPRs per 10 player setup is probably overkill in the true neutral universe for example where the neut mostly joins the town after the mislynch in a semi-confirmable way.

[SuperJack]

Don't worry. I'll valence it fine.

Your suggestions have been very good. =) I'll dig through them later =)

[Frog]

Going through all 40 roles now:

Starting with town. Asterisks indicate what I'd remove. I suggested plenty of changes.

I'd also suggest you include the possibility of modifiers - especially for Mafia.

Sheriff - Good as is considering last wills

*Lookout - I'd take this one and keep Tracker instead.

Detective - This is a Tracker. I'd keep this one.

*Journalist - I'd get rid of this

Doctor -
I'd change it so Targets are not informed of being healed.
I'd still let Godfather and Neutral Killing know they were attacked, but not that they were healed.
I'd let Doctor know if their target was attacked- this is different than successful heal. Normally I wouldn't even allow this because it gives Doctor an information on top of stopping a kill. It's a small mechanical hand hold since targets aren't notified they were healed, but Doctor knows they were attacked.

*Bus Driver - This is too powerful. I'd take it out.

Escort - I'd make sure targets are not informed if they were blocked. Again, blocking a potential kill is enough of a power. By allowing players to confirm an escort it becomes a mechanical hand holding game.

*Jailor - This is too powerful. I'd say just take it out. Even if it became a jail keeper with night chat it'd be a Roleblocker on steroids.

Vigilante - Great role. I'd say it's as powerful as a Night Zero Alignment Cop.

*Veteran - I'd take this out

*Architect - I'd take this out

*Mayor - I'd take this out

*Spy - I understand why this is here, but it would be a very time consuming role. I'd take it out for issue of theory vs practice - I doubt this role will be used to its potential.

*Transporter - I know this plays into your setup idea, but it could swing the game way too much. I'd rework it or get rid of it.

Enhanced Citizen - I'd change this to 1-shot auto vest instead of universe jumping

*Marshall - I'd take this out

Citizen - the best role

I'd add:

Innocent Child

Bodyguard

Masons

Final lineup for town would look like:

1. Alignment Cop
2. Tracker
3. Roleblocker
4. Vigilante
5. 1-Shot Autovest Citizen
6. Citizen
7. Innocent Child
8. Bodyguard
9. Mason

No night zero alignment cop - last wills make it overpowered. Regular alignment cop is fine.

[Frog]

Mafia roles now:

Godfather - immune to detection and bulletproof is overpowered. Give godfather the choice of one or the other.

*Kidnapper - overpowered

*Tracker - this is overpowered, I'd switch it to strictly Watcher.

*Chauffeur - overpowered

Consort - only change for Mafia roleblocker is targets shouldn't get feedback

Consigliere - Mafia role cop is fine

*Framer - I'd get rid of this. GF has the potential to be go Ninja or Bulletproof. Existence of Framer invalidates town investigatives far too much.

*Drug Dealer - I'd get rid of it

*Beguiler - I'd get rid of this

*Actress - I'd get rid of this

*Corrupted Spy - again, this would not get the potential it deserves

*Corrupt Enhanced Citizen - I'd change this to 1-shot Mafia Bullet Proof and do away with universe jumping.

*Corrupt Journalist - I'd take this out

*Corrupt Architect - I'd take this out

*Witch - I'd take this out

*Disguiser - I'd take this out

Mafioso - great

I'd add:

1-shot Mafia Strongman: if Strongman is elected to enact the assigned kill, he may also choose to use his 1-shot strongman ability.

1-shot Autovest Mafia

Mafia Ninja

ALSO - since there are last wills/
I'd allow the possibility of a Forger role.


Final Mafia Line-up would look like:

1. Godfather (Bulletproof/Ninja) - must choose
2. Mafia Ninja
3. 1-Shot Mafia Bulletproof
4. Mafia Watcher
5. Mafia Roleblocker
6. Mafia Role Cop (Consig)
7. Mafioso
8. Forger

[Frog]

17 roles and only neutrals to go - this is much more manageable for game play and makes sense considering two 10 player setups.

Still thinking through how to change neutrals and neutral killing to work with mechanics.

Might have to amend mechanics a bit to make it work.

*On Mechanics:
Working out how player swapping will make sense while:
A) Maintaining balance
B) Not nullifying power roles
C) Allowing the neutral to pass of required

I think it's as simple as the 2 worlds must merge and everyone gains visibility of both worlds at a certain point.

That point may be at a certain combined player count, when one world of the two worlds reaches a certain size, or some combination.

I'll think through it.

Let's say in world A 1 Mafia is lynched, 1 Mafia is killed, leaving either one neutral killing, or one neutral turned Mafia. If they're subsequently lynched, by Night 2 there's basically 7 confirmed townies. So if there were a merge, the game would be broken. I'd put in a provision if that were to occur, like one citizen becomes a member of the Mafia. It's not perfect, but it deals with that highly unlikely scenario.

I'd say given the current death rate of 1 lynch, 1 kill, that'd be until D6 where 10 players are left. That's not factoring in the neutral killer or town killing. If it would, it would be until D4 where worlds merge. I'd say worlds should auto-merge on D4 or the day where combined players begin with 12 players, whichever comes first.

[Frog]

On neutral roles:
For the sake of balance, I'd make the neutral role the one I suggested.

Neutral -
Assume the vanilla role of the alignment of the first player lynched in your world. (Aka you flip vanilla)
If neutral killing is lynched first in your world, you take their role and flip as neutral killing. If you win, the other neutral killing wins.
If you are lynched first in your world, one random town in your world is killed and you lose.

Jester - is anti-town during day and night and punishing town most likely if vengeful upon lynch. Unbalanced.

Survivor - just needs to Mafia side to win. Unbalanced.

Equalist - no longer relevant with my suggested mech overhaul

Ghost - I hate vents. I can link you yayap's spiel on vents.

Lawyer - impossible with revised mechanics - and damned near impossible with the old ones

[Frog]

Last comment on the neutral killer-

The KPN is significantly lower than that of an arsonist.

I'd just use the exact two examples I suggest in the M-FM Rick and Morty setup.

That and I'm lazy to think of another neutral killing that would make sense.

That rounds it out to 20 role potentials total, which should be at the top end for ~20 player game.

[Frog]

I think this last comment should finish up with balancing the setup:

Mafia assigned kill must be compulsive.

There must always be 1 lynch a day.

The world with more votes on one player is the lynch that goes through.

In the event where both worlds have the same amount of votes on the lynch, the world with more players enacts the lynch.

Where both worlds have the same number of players, the lynch is randomized - although for balance I'd prefer it go to the world with more non-town players alive, I feel this would create mechanical hunting later on.