A change to the Framer

[yzb25]

I propose a change: Rather than the current version of Framers, Framers can make a player appear to be the role of a player from the graveyard to investigative roles.

For example, if a sheriff visits a lookout, a Framer can select a dead cultist in the graveyard and visit said lookout, to make the lookout appear to be a cultist to the sheriff.

Crimes given by the Framer still last forever, but now, the Framer transfers all the crimes from the player in the graveyard to the framed individual and will take away previous crimes. i.e. the Framer can give a lookout soliciting and conspiracy from the dead cultist while taking away trespassing. Detectives will see framed individuals visiting the same person that the person in the graveyard visited on their final night. (If the person that the graveyard individual visited is now dead, the framed individual will appear to have visited noone) The information lookouts receive will corroborate with the detective. Framers will also affect a coroner's information.

Why?

It would make the role a lot less all-or-nothing - the main use of the role right now is being able to trick a real sheriff into believing that someone is falsely mafia - this can cause complete chaos. From a town perspective, it is very difficult to tell whether a player who was found to be mafia was actually framed. So, due to how unlikely it is that a Framer successfully framed someone on the exact same night that a sheriff visited the framed person, the town usually just assumes that the player found to be mafia is actually mafia.

With this change, the town will be able to engage in some degree of deduction about what a Framer can or can't frame a player to seem like, and make some educated guesses. And, on the other hand, the Framer will have other uses even if he never lands the lottery frame. He may even partake in far more elaborate schemes to deceive investigatives who aren't sheriffs.

Or, if Framers can visit fellow mafia pals, (a toggle-able option) Framers could be used to make mafia chum seem innocent. (Probably only in a a save specialized for a framer)

[BananaCucho]

What if no one is in the graveyard yet? The majority of my successful frames are a n1 frame on an obvious sheriff target


The framer can't frame someone as killing or mafia until they are in the graveyard. I think that is too much of a nerf that makes sheriff way too powerful. Sheriff's claims are often countered by "that guy is exe" or "I've been framed", which offsets his ability.

[yzb25]

What if no one is in the graveyard yet? The majority of my successful frames are a n1 frame on an obvious sheriff target


The framer can't frame someone as killing or mafia until they are in the graveyard. I think that is too much of a nerf that makes sheriff way too powerful. Sheriff's claims are often countered by "that guy is exe" or "I've been framed", which offsets his ability.

It may take a while to warm up, and it may only do a couple of good things the entire game, if ANYTHING, but this is the case for most mafia deceptions - their contribution throughout the game isn't constant / immediate. Plus, most of the time framers went through the entire game doing NOTHING because they couldn't get a single lottery frame off. At least now they'll usually be able to do something consistently.

As I said in the OP, the town will almost always lynch regardless of the possibility of a framer, because they have no way of telling otherwise and the chances are so low anyway. So they'll just take the small risk. Removing this early-game feature won't change much. Executioner claims are far more useful for wriggling out of tight situations, and witch manipulation sounds more believable than framing.

So, overall, I don't think the issues you raised are detrimental enough to discount a change like this. And, like most deceptions, framers would still have the capability to pull massive deceptions, but it requires more skill than a partially lucky frame on n1.

[Mikecall]

Seems a little overpowered with the way it can get either the crimes or roles of the graveyard and apply it to someone, how would it work in the way that they would get the role from the graveyard onto that specific person?

[yzb25]

Seems a little overpowered with the way it can get either the crimes or roles of the graveyard and apply it to someone, how would it work in the way that they would get the role from the graveyard onto that specific person?

I imagined that, at night, there'd be grey boxes next to all the dead people you could visit (their names would reappear on the number card) and red boxes next to all the alive people you could visit. The red boxes would signify who you wanted to frame and the grey boxes would signify what corpse you wanted to use. (You'd visit the framed target, the same as before)

The crime manipulation does seem very powerful. But I feel it also has ways of screwing up its crimes like the old framer did. If you just put crimes on someone willy nilly and they later become a confirmed town, it can guarantee there's a framer (or at the least bring an investigator into question). And, naturally, it's a huge weakness for the framer that they're limited to using roles that everyone can see have already died at least once.

However, I think that a part of this role that could be majorly op is the ability to graveyard an innocent+frame a mafia buddy, (if that option is ticked). They'd probably need to put in an option like ("sheriff finds suspicion regardless of framer") so that sheriffs aren't so easily duped by framers defending their buddies.

[Frog]

Original idea, but I think there might be issues when the witch comes into play. Normally when a framer is targeted by the witch, the framer's target will simply change. As with a bus driver being witched (2 targets), it makes things a little messier.

[Slaol]

Id just buff it to having him sslect any player, alive or dead.

Using the dead lets him know most likely.
Targetting the mafia lets him frame as mafia
Targetting a mafia to look like the gf gives immunity
Targetting random townies can mess with which crimes in terms of investigator

Frankly this sounds really good

Like a weird beguiler of investigwtive results

[Cryptonic]

Id just buff it to having him sslect any player, alive or dead.

Using the dead lets him know most likely.
Targetting the mafia lets him frame as mafia
Targetting a mafia to look like the gf gives immunity
Targetting random townies can mess with which crimes in terms of investigator

Frankly this sounds really good

Like a weird beguiler of investigwtive results

Can you frame Mafia as Town? ;o

[lingsarecute]

Can you frame Mafia as Town? ;o

...yeah that sounds OP. Make him unable to frame mafia lol

[Slaol]

Can you frame Mafia as Town? ;o

In this change, yes. It would be vulnerable to investigator based on the crimes mechanic, and could replace his immunity to detection.

Buff and nerf at the same time

[Cryptonic]

In this change, yes. It would be vulnerable to investigator based on the crimes mechanic, and could replace his immunity to detection.

Buff and nerf at the same time

That works, then, if his immunity option is removed.

[yzb25]

Id just buff it to having him sslect any player, alive or dead.

Using the dead lets him know most likely.
Targetting the mafia lets him frame as mafia
Targetting a mafia to look like the gf gives immunity
Targetting random townies can mess with which crimes in terms of investigator

Frankly this sounds really good

Like a weird beguiler of investigwtive results

Thankyou . While I like the fact that such a change to my change would open up many more options for the framer, I feel there'd be a few cons that would need to be taken into consideration -

1) It would be a bit annoying for the town as they wouldn't have many ways of telling who is or isn't being framed. In the current form, the town can engage in a lot of deduction to separate the framed data from the real data, because of graveyard info. With your change, if live people can be selected too, most of that deduction is completely turned on its head.

2) I also feel it would kinda simplify some of the mechanics to the current proposed change. For example, you could basically just frame people and select the Godfather to deceive detectives / lookouts into thinking the target is a killer. Then you could deceive sheriffs by simply selecting one of your own mafia buddies and then selecting who you wanna frame. Furthermore, in a sense, it'd kinda just be a straight buff as you could still play the Framer in the old way by selecting your live mafia buddy and then picking random people, with the same effect of just picking people to frame.

3) There would be a lot to gain from just framing just for the hell of it, even if you're just framing randomly, which I don't think is something we'd want to encourage.

[DarknessB]

I agree that this is an interesting idea that would put a lot more strategy into the Framer role than currently exists now. That said, if the Framer is able to select any player, either living or dead as the lead to be found, it could be useful to have a game setup option to limit the Framer to a set number of "framings" (something in the 2-4 range?) as to encourage more strategic / planned use of the ability, as opposed to an ability that just gets randomed and which could potentially throw off the town every single night.

[Cryptonic]

I agree that this is an interesting idea that would put a lot more strategy into the Framer role than currently exists now. That said, if the Framer is able to select any player, either living or dead as the lead to be found, it could be useful to have a game setup option to limit the Framer to a set number of "framings" (something in the 2-4 range?) as to encourage more strategic / planned use of the ability, as opposed to an ability that just gets randomed and which could potentially throw off the town every single night.

That's how the role is now. Has the chance to throw off town every single night lol. How often does it actually happen, though.

[DarknessB]

I see what you mean, and agreed that it's rare for a Framer to mess up more than one lead per game (despite being able to frame every night). That said, if you're giving the Framer the ability to control the fake leads (among different options), that's a pretty good buff to the role, especially in the hands of a smart player and in terms of being able to conceal fellow Mafia members as Town (which is deceptively strong). I'm okay with the current Framer having unlimited frames because the ability is a bit haphazard and can't be controlled by the Framer, in terms of what lead shows up exactly -- it's more chaotic in nature than overtly strategic. Current Framer also can't really protect fellow Mafia members so it's strictly an offensive deception role as opposed to being both offensive and defensive (the proposed variation where the Framer can frame Mafia members as Town).

That's how the role is now. Has the chance to throw off town every single night lol. How often does it actually happen, though.

[SuperJack]

Eh :9 just bring in the tailour into the game instead of chaning the framer right? or is that just more like forum mafia cause the mod isnt clever enougbw with the players to use a tailor right/#? i mean what the fuck you gonna do cause there only be 3 maifia in the game.

[Slaol]

Yzb25.

Your points can be reasoned as follows.

1: Framer is a deception role, so the idea of changing it in a way that makes it easier to understand is fundamentally against the roles existence. Then you should understand that while my ideas isn't as clean as yours, it is actually simpler to fathom than the current form.

2: Yes. It's got several dynamics. Framing as Godfather to defeat Detectives, framing as town to confuse investigator or provide defense, and of course framing as mafia for sheriffs. It most certainly is a straight buff, but the whole role could use it, and the removal of immunity to detection is a hefty balancing nerf. The buff lets framer play defense for his team, but prevents him from protecting himself at the same time as attacking town. It gives him versatility, but actually lowers his power cap overall.

3: Framer just frames 'for the Hell of it' right now, as that's his action. I don't see that as different.

[Slaol]

I enjoy that this is an offensive buff, giving framer the ability to fight detectives, and more control over how things appear. It is also a defensive buff in that it can make things immune including itself and allies. HOWEVER, the removal of immunity to detection while also being able to frame means that it is an overall nerf to peak power. It is a buff to both offensive and defensive abilities but an overall nerf.

[yzb25]

Yzb25.

Your points can be reasoned as follows.

1: Framer is a deception role, so the idea of changing it in a way that makes it easier to understand is fundamentally against the roles existence. Then you should understand that while my ideas isn't as clean as yours, it is actually simpler to fathom than the current form.

2: Yes. It's got several dynamics. Framing as Godfather to defeat Detectives, framing as town to confuse investigator or provide defense, and of course framing as mafia for sheriffs. It most certainly is a straight buff, but the whole role could use it, and the removal of immunity to detection is a hefty balancing nerf. The buff lets framer play defense for his team, but prevents him from protecting himself at the same time as attacking town. It gives him versatility, but actually lowers his power cap overall.

3: Framer just frames 'for the Hell of it' right now, as that's his action. I don't see that as different.

1) Uhh I don't think I was 100% clear about this one. I wasn't really talking about complexity - I was talking about the town's ability to deduce and discern the framer's deception and, in turn, the framer's ability to exploit the town's preconceptions to make a plan even more brutal. In other words, my change has a lot more potential for play and counter play than yours, in your change's current state.

However, I'm going to address this counterpoint anyway - You bring something important up. "Deception roles should be hard to understand, but simple to fathom."

The words "understanding" and "fathoming" are synonymous, but you're using them as if they're different, so in your context they must mean something different. "To fathom" is primarily concerned with deep meaning. "To understand" is primarily concerned with grasping the perceived meaning - the shallow, rather than the deep. To summarize, you want difficult for shallow comprehension, but easy for deep comprehension - So I'm assuming what you're saying is you want a role with an ability that is difficult to grasp on a basic level, but is actually rather simple on a deeper level.

I think I've misinterpreted this - because that suggests you literally want a role that is broad and hard to understand and confusing on the surface, but at the same time shallow and lacking in depth. This sounds counter-intuitive to me - Surely you'd want a role with which the basic mechanics that can be summarized in a few short sentences, but has the potential to go really, really deep and get really, really interesting.

I want to address this before going any further with this discussion about point 1.

2) Yo man! Uncool! I was discussing one thing, and you just took it and turned it into a discussion about balance?! wtf?! XD I was all like "yo these 'new mechanics' will allow framers to use godfathers to fool detectives/lookouts and mafialings to fool sheriffs. That would allow them to do simple things 90% of the time, with little thought." "This basically regresses the change (which was supposed to make things more interesting) into a straight buff as Framers will play the old way apart from when they're infini-sheriff-healing their maf buddies (which won't be much more interesting)."

Tbh, I did say the 'B' word, so I can see where I may have caused confusion. I wasn't saying "straight buff" because I was against the "buff" part - I was saying "straight buff" because I was against the "straight" part.

"Straight" refers to how my idea was reduced to a simple increase, rather than a change to make things more interesting. You're correct - your idea would be balanced, but that wasn't quite what I was attacking.

3) Upon more thought, if you're framing townies like a madman, because there are far more investigatives who could bump into your information hoaxes, the town is going to pick up on minor inconsistencies of investigative data far more quickly and deduce that there's a Framer. So I guess in both versions you have incentives not to frame townies like a crazy person. But, then again, I still feel there's a little more incentive in mine. Why? I dunno. I just feel that way =3. Ask me in 5 years if I made up this 3rd point literally just so I could have 3 points and I'll give you an honest answer.

My apologies if I lacked clarity somewhere. I'm re-reading your stuff and really trying to... fathom... the nuances of what you're saying, while trying to make my stuff as open as possible.