M-FM XXVI The Frozen Throne Gamethread - Page 2
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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Mal'ganis View Post
    What are your thoughts on Daralan, Captain?
    Well then. I was not going to chase it here but I read you as experienced as in you have played at least a few games, too much to be this dodgy unintentionally. I read your push on me as hollow and an effort to appear to be scum hunting while fishing for town points. I see you as leaning slightly scummy and am interested to see how you react to a bit of pressure.

    -vote M-FM Mal'ganis

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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    Why explain your scummy actions or even explain how 'faking com leads' relates to alignment when you can just dodge questions. You do realize I am just going to keep poking you until you hit the rest of the towns radar or you take a moment and make some sense.
    Faking com makes you harder to read. Townies want to be easy to read. I kinda figured this was common sense. There's zero reason to make yourself harder to read.

    You can keep poking me but anyone who actually knows me (rather than attempt to impersonate me) knows that I'm aggressive but trying to be more cooperative. So yes, I do want people to explain how you actually are town and how breaking out of RVS is scummy which you certainly are implying is scummy.

  11. ISO #61

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Mal'ganis View Post
    Faking com makes you harder to read. Townies want to be easy to read. I kinda figured this was common sense. There's zero reason to make yourself harder to read.

    You can keep poking me but anyone who actually knows me (rather than attempt to impersonate me) knows that I'm aggressive but trying to be more cooperative. So yes, I do want people to explain how you actually are town and how breaking out of RVS is scummy which you certainly are implying is scummy.
    To be direct- I never tried to pretend to be you. I have no idea who you are and I have no idea where this idea came from. I consider com hunting a total waste of time because if you are wrong all those 'meta tells' you were playing off have screwed up your read. Also a lot of people seemingly depend on others reading their coms for their defense (Which I find slightly BM.) "If you knew me this is how I play every time I am town." Thats a shitty cop out and half breaks the purpose of having accounts to begin with. If the host wanted com meta he would not have us playing on anons to begin with.

    I think you are scummy because you misrepresent what I am saying. You dodge questions and your FoS doesn't look like you put very much thought into it. You seemingly did not even bother to read my answers to your questions and you contradict yourself in your statements.

    I try to be open minded. I am not saying "I am certain you are scum". I am just saying some of your behavior sets off alarms for me and the lack of explanation from you as to your thought process behind your comments makes me extremely uncomfortable.

  12. ISO #62

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Dalaran, I've asked you what you dodged. You haven't answered me. I don't know what it is I'm not explaining.

    You haven't given an explanation for your pointless questions (the journalist is another).

    It's incredibly frustrating that I'm trying to have a dialogue and all I'm getting is unexplained conclusions. If you are town, this is not helping and we are having an epic failure of communication.

  13. ISO #63

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Depending on the answer you may be able to give a sort of private message to the journalist when he interviews. This would be very useful for things like the journalist confirming himself to that player via code or communicating information you do not want to be public. Such as if you were healed/role blocked some specific night and want that info known to confirm a doc/escort claim down the road.

    These are all very useful things you can do with a journalist depending on how the host plays the role.

    I agree that we have some communication issues. The rest of the information is in the previous posts.

  14. ISO #64

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    All theoretically accurate, but it should have been asked pregame. The fact you're just asking now looks like grandstanding. The thread has been open for weeks if not months to elaborate. The journalist question comes to light now, really? It looks like diversionary tactics but maybe I'm on tunnel vision. That's my problem. It's useless baseless setup spec. Plus, we have no way of knowing a journalist even exists.

    The biggest thing that gives me pause is scum engaging in that after multiple references to punishing a player for such seem a little foolish and suboptimal for scum.

  15. ISO #65

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Honestly, I can totally see where Mal'ganis is coming from and I at the same time I can understand Dalaran's explanations (even if I do not agree with some of his ideas). What I'm seeing here though is a lack of proportionality between the inconsistencies found and the conclusions drawn from them. What I mean is that what you guys are arguing as scummy isn't scummy enough to seriously FoS someone.

    This conflict can be solved more easily if you stop posting a lot at once and rather ask a concise question you want answered from the other. It makes it a lot more likely that you will find what you are looking for in the other.

  16. ISO #66

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    -unvote


    I should reflect on this some and today is international table top gaming day. Going out to friends for fun. I will check in periodically but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get a day 1 lynch off.

    Plaguelands, I'd like you to elaborate on how Dalaran can be town. Even if I was wrong (still don't think I was but I'm more open), let's at least get a town out of this.

  17. ISO #67

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Mal'ganis View Post
    Plaguelands, I'd like you to elaborate on how Dalaran can be town. Even if I was wrong (still don't think I was but I'm more open), let's at least get a town out of this.
    Well, I didn't say that whatever he said makes him town, but it doesn't make him scum in my eyes either. He's rather neutral leaning slightly scummy to me. I'll explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    -vote M-FM Plaguelands

    I found the wolf guys. Gg
    He is using off-site lingo. We can only draw the conclusion from this that he either slipped and is from another site or he is faking being from another site to be harder to read. It's not a big deal either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    What is considered the town?

    And without some speculation as to how roles will play out or what roles are in the game we are in for a very dull D1. Even if the discussion itself is of little value to the game itself it will still provide some insight to the level of skill a player has, the amount of attention he pays to detail and how he reasons things out. All these things are invaluable tools to players that would hunt for a slip or divine the motive behind a players words.
    I agree the question he asked is contradicting the impression you'd get from someone using the word "wolf", namely as you said: This person is new because he cannot draw an obvious answer by himself. Then he does a 180 and starts talking from experience/knowledge, giving off the impression that he has a few games under his belt and therefore formed a solid opinion on how a D1 should look like (an opinion I don't agree with completely but there has always been opposing opinions like this on D1).


    This is enough to explain what problem you have with Dalaran because at this point you have put a FoS on him. So why do I not see Dalaran as scummy as you do? It's because the conclusion you can draw from Dalaran's play so far cannot lead to him being scum.

    Why would a player fake being new? The obvious answer to me is: He wants to avoid attention by seeming less skilled than he is. Who would want to seem like that? Scum.. and TPRs. Also citizens faking TPRs, if we want to add another WIFOM layer. I wouldn't FoS someone based on that, I'd probably only call him out to that.

    Now for another matter: he didn't even succeed at faking being new. As I explained, the opinion he gave looked to be from someone who is experienced. So can we really say that Dalaran tried to fake being new if he didn't even seriously try and failed at this in the very same post he attempted it?

    I hope this accurately reflects my view on why Dalaran's behaviour doesn't seem scummy to me up to that point.

    Now because you also touched upon it: It is indeed questionable why Dalaran would ask questions now instead of pre-game, especially because the answers to them are not very hard to figure out. They are very simple questions and thinking of them should have happened pre-game. This seems pretty scummy because as you said, it's an attempt to gain easy townpoints (even if not many, I don't award town points like candy, don't know about you guys). Dalaran's defense though is that he wanted to create the norm that asking questions should be normal (if I understood that correctly). While unnecessary because people have always asked questions during games the whole time I've been on this site, I can see where he is coming from and while his defence does not clear him completely in my eyes, I decided to give him the benefit of doubt because it's D1 and the game has just started out.

    Conclusion overall: Slightly scummy, nowhere near enough to cast a vote on him. Talking and asking him questions would have sufficed in my eyes. It makes me assume though that Dalaran does not react well to pressure.

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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    Well, I didn't say that whatever he said makes him town, but it doesn't make him scum in my eyes either. He's rather neutral leaning slightly scummy to me. I'll explain.



    He is using off-site lingo. We can only draw the conclusion from this that he either slipped and is from another site or he is faking being from another site to be harder to read. It's not a big deal either way.



    I agree the question he asked is contradicting the impression you'd get from someone using the word "wolf", namely as you said: This person is new because he cannot draw an obvious answer by himself. Then he does a 180 and starts talking from experience/knowledge, giving off the impression that he has a few games under his belt and therefore formed a solid opinion on how a D1 should look like (an opinion I don't agree with completely but there has always been opposing opinions like this on D1).


    This is enough to explain what problem you have with Dalaran because at this point you have put a FoS on him. So why do I not see Dalaran as scummy as you do? It's because the conclusion you can draw from Dalaran's play so far cannot lead to him being scum.

    Why would a player fake being new? The obvious answer to me is: He wants to avoid attention by seeming less skilled than he is. Who would want to seem like that? Scum.. and TPRs. Also citizens faking TPRs, if we want to add another WIFOM layer. I wouldn't FoS someone based on that, I'd probably only call him out to that.

    Now for another matter: he didn't even succeed at faking being new. As I explained, the opinion he gave looked to be from someone who is experienced. So can we really say that Dalaran tried to fake being new if he didn't even seriously try and failed at this in the very same post he attempted it?

    I hope this accurately reflects my view on why Dalaran's behaviour doesn't seem scummy to me up to that point.

    Now because you also touched upon it: It is indeed questionable why Dalaran would ask questions now instead of pre-game, especially because the answers to them are not very hard to figure out. They are very simple questions and thinking of them should have happened pre-game. This seems pretty scummy because as you said, it's an attempt to gain easy townpoints (even if not many, I don't award town points like candy, don't know about you guys). Dalaran's defense though is that he wanted to create the norm that asking questions should be normal (if I understood that correctly). While unnecessary because people have always asked questions during games the whole time I've been on this site, I can see where he is coming from and while his defence does not clear him completely in my eyes, I decided to give him the benefit of doubt because it's D1 and the game has just started out.

    Conclusion overall: Slightly scummy, nowhere near enough to cast a vote on him. Talking and asking him questions would have sufficed in my eyes. It makes me assume though that Dalaran does not react well to pressure.
    I appreciate the day 1 effort. Even on this site's meta.

  23. ISO #73

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Mal'ganis View Post
    And there's the OMGUS. I was wondering how long it would take.

    Captain, explain to me how Darlan is town please. Maybe he's deliberately being fake but there's nothing real about his posting so far.
    I plead the fifth

    my explanation would cause behaviors to change and make it harder for me to form reads

  24. ISO #74

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Sheep View Post
    I appreciate the day 1 effort. Even on this site's meta.
    I try. I am of the belief that D1 is actually useful. On that topic: a debate on debate.org has been brought to my attention where behavioral analysis on D1 was debated and I felt myself agreeing with the pro-advocate. I wonder if I'm allowed to post it.

    Am I allowed to post a link leading to debate.org?

    If not, try to google it if you are interested in such a thing. Beware though that it's rather lengthy. If my little wall of text made any of you irritated because it was already too long for you, do not bother looking it up.


    For the sake of creating activity I'd like to ask people to post what they think of the current situation of Dalaran vs Mal'ganis. And no, it does not have to be as long as my read. I'd just like to see people post as a change of pace. I think fondly of the early FMs where D1 was actually full of activity.

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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    When interviewed by a journalist would my response be posted verbatim or is the article revised by the journalist for publishing the following day? For example would I be able to include a message for the journalists eyes only?

    Journalist just picks a target and they get to make an interview that will be posted at day start. No article revisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    Am I allowed to post a link leading to debate.org?
    Sure
    Due to a decent amount of players still not showing up day 1 and like every other day will be 48 hours. Nights also will be 48 hours. Sorry about messing with the times, just want to make sure people get to post.

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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Spoiler : Plaguelands read Quote :
    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    Well, I didn't say that whatever he said makes him town, but it doesn't make him scum in my eyes either. He's rather neutral leaning slightly scummy to me. I'll explain.



    He is using off-site lingo. We can only draw the conclusion from this that he either slipped and is from another site or he is faking being from another site to be harder to read. It's not a big deal either way.



    I agree the question he asked is contradicting the impression you'd get from someone using the word "wolf", namely as you said: This person is new because he cannot draw an obvious answer by himself. Then he does a 180 and starts talking from experience/knowledge, giving off the impression that he has a few games under his belt and therefore formed a solid opinion on how a D1 should look like (an opinion I don't agree with completely but there has always been opposing opinions like this on D1).


    This is enough to explain what problem you have with Dalaran because at this point you have put a FoS on him. So why do I not see Dalaran as scummy as you do? It's because the conclusion you can draw from Dalaran's play so far cannot lead to him being scum.

    Why would a player fake being new? The obvious answer to me is: He wants to avoid attention by seeming less skilled than he is. Who would want to seem like that? Scum.. and TPRs. Also citizens faking TPRs, if we want to add another WIFOM layer. I wouldn't FoS someone based on that, I'd probably only call him out to that.

    Now for another matter: he didn't even succeed at faking being new. As I explained, the opinion he gave looked to be from someone who is experienced. So can we really say that Dalaran tried to fake being new if he didn't even seriously try and failed at this in the very same post he attempted it?

    I hope this accurately reflects my view on why Dalaran's behaviour doesn't seem scummy to me up to that point.

    Now because you also touched upon it: It is indeed questionable why Dalaran would ask questions now instead of pre-game, especially because the answers to them are not very hard to figure out. They are very simple questions and thinking of them should have happened pre-game. This seems pretty scummy because as you said, it's an attempt to gain easy townpoints (even if not many, I don't award town points like candy, don't know about you guys). Dalaran's defense though is that he wanted to create the norm that asking questions should be normal (if I understood that correctly). While unnecessary because people have always asked questions during games the whole time I've been on this site, I can see where he is coming from and while his defence does not clear him completely in my eyes, I decided to give him the benefit of doubt because it's D1 and the game has just started out.

    Conclusion overall: Slightly scummy, nowhere near enough to cast a vote on him. Talking and asking him questions would have sufficed in my eyes. It makes me assume though that Dalaran does not react well to pressure.


    So with everything I have posted your read comes down to: Everything I have done is neutral but because I asked host questions I am slightly scummy? I do like the post though. Its nice to see another player came to actually play instead of trying to float by into the late game.

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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    Spoiler : Plaguelands read Quote :



    So with everything I have posted your read comes down to: Everything I have done is neutral but because I asked host questions I am slightly scummy? I do like the post though. Its nice to see another player came to actually play instead of trying to float by into the late game.
    You could summarize my post like that if you only look at what people do and completely dismiss how they're doing something. Which is kinda stupid. Take scum for example: They will attempt to scumhunt to seem like they're town aligned. It's important for us to figure out how they're doing it to catch them. To use your style of defense they'd say "So everything your read on me boils down to is that I'm scum because I'm trying to scum hunt?"

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    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    You could summarize my post like that if you only look at what people do and completely dismiss how they're doing something. Which is kinda stupid. Take scum for example: They will attempt to scumhunt to seem like they're town aligned. It's important for us to figure out how they're doing it to catch them. To use your style of defense they'd say "So everything your read on me boils down to is that I'm scum because I'm trying to scum hunt?"
    I agree that how a player goes about something can show motive. But you did not say as much in your read earlier.

    Would you say that Mal'ganis intentionally misrepresent my comments, that is it just a communication issue, or that it is his issue with tunnel vision?

  41. ISO #91

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    I agree that how a player goes about something can show motive. But you did not say as much in your read earlier.

    Would you say that Mal'ganis intentionally misrepresent my comments, that is it just a communication issue, or that it is his issue with tunnel vision?
    Sigh. At this point I don't even know if you're intentionally misrepresenting what someone said or if you just don't notice it yourself. How could you not see that the entire paragraph about you asking the questions was about how you asked them. If it was simply that you were asking questions at all I could dismiss that, but there is more to Mafia than just actions, there's intent and motive.

    Now to explain what I mean that you're misrepresenting what people say: For one, Mal'ganis felt that you were twisting his words. Now I hadn't looked at that too closely (because you don't notice straight away when it doesn't happen to you), but you were able to do just that twice in a row with my posts. It's like your whole play so far consists of discrediting people and that's not what a town player should do.

    Now for your question, earlier I said that I think this could be resolved by asking concise questions to the other, but I'm fairly confident that when I go through the conversation again I will find the same phenomenom that I've experienced already.

  42. ISO #92

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Let's take a look at this early interaction. For context, Mal'ganis has already voted you (a vote that I think came too early based on too little) and given the reason that you are fake. After you asked him for clarification, he explained himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Mal'ganis View Post
    We are not all friends. Not even close. There's at least six enemies to me in the game. So don't even try it.

    If you have tone to focus on, then today's posts are not "devoid of content" your words.

    Let's try assuming you are new.

    You are new. You come onto a site, called sc2mafia, and assume wolves rather than mafia are in the setup. Nothing even remotely suggest wolves. This limits the possibility that you're new to very remote at best as someone new would assume mafia. The fact you attempted to reinforce this with a question that even a moderate player of social deduction could figure out. 51% of the town must logically mean 51% of the group. It's not like we automatically eliminate scum votes from the lynch. That would make the game boring and pointless. Such a question is fake.

    So if you want me to move, I'll need to see something genuine from you.
    I believe that the conclusion you can come to so far, depending on what perspective you have, can very well be the same that Mal'ganis came to in the highlighted part. As I explained in my read, this wouldn't be enough for myself however to push a vote onto you.
    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    Genuine you say?

    Well for starters I really do not care if you move or not. I am reading your FoS as: This player is pretending to be from another site so he is scum. Well that tickles me pink and I doubt anyone would read as much and agree to jump in your train bid.

    I do not think you actually believe I am trying to make myself look like I am from another site. Obviously the question was silly. All I had to do to get that answer was look at the votes to lynch. I find players are more willing to ask questions when its the 'norm' and not an outstanding action. I do not think I have ever played an open game where someone asked some question and I had to stop and say "Man, I didn't even think of that". It helps to have multiple people's thoughts to dig through and those simple discussions often lead to some interactions (Just look at ours)

    I like to give people the benefit of a doubt so I am trying to avoid focusing on the possibility you are just trying to leech some town cred by misrepresenting me. That said I see your posts as more of a reaction fish than anything else. It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though.
    In the part I highlighted, you misrepresent what he said. It's not that you're pretending to be from another site. It's that you've made it clear you're from another site and yet asked such a silly question for reasons we can only assume but the ones I can think of do not help your case. Now, you said you wanted to create the norm where asking questions is normal and even somewhat expected. Do you honestly believe that this is how you could make this happen? The question at best helped to clear a confusion. The result is that you wouldn't come close to what you expect, it'd make people ask questions if they're confused.

    Your later journalist question was way better suited for this purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    [...]

    You directly contradict yourself here in the same comment. This suggests you are just trying to come up with reasons to say I am evil and that you do not even believe in what you are writing. Am I pretending to be new or am I pretending to be experienced? Kindly make up your mind.

    [...]
    In this highlighted part, you misrepresent what he said again. He said that you want to seem knowledgable, not experienced. Yet you said he does. Is being knowledgable the same as being experienced? Not necessarily, depending where you're coming from. You can be knowledgable while being new, not because you play a lot of Mafia but because you have gained this knowledge through one way or another. If he really meant knowledgable as in experienced is something only he can now. If he meant experienced then I can only point to my read and say that yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone pretending to be new to then contradict this image by wanting to show that he's an experienced player.

    The rest of the defense in the post I quoted last is okay but still amouns to you trying to discredit him as a player rather than discrediting his arguments. One might think they're the same thing but I believe there's a difference.

    Now for you saying he is misrepresenting what you said, please give me some quotes. I can only see that you're very obviously misrepresenting what others are saying but I'm having a harder time finding where Mal'ganis does the same to you.

  43. ISO #93

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    [...]
    In this highlighted part, you misrepresent what he said again. He said that you want to seem knowledgable. Yet you said he's saying that you're experienced. Is being knowledgable the same as being experienced? Not necessarily, depending where you're coming from. You can be knowledgable while being new, not because you play a lot of Mafia but because you have gained this knowledge through one way or another. If he really meant knowledgable as in experienced is something only he can know. If he meant experienced then I can only point to my read and say that yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone pretending to be new to then contradict this image by wanting to show that he's an experienced player.

    The rest of the defense in the post I quoted last is okay but still amounts to you trying to discredit him as a player rather than discrediting his arguments. One might think they're the same thing but I believe there's a difference.

    Now for you saying he is misrepresenting what you said, please give me some quotes. I can only see that you're very obviously misrepresenting what others are saying but I'm having a harder time finding where Mal'ganis does the same to you.
    Fixed the highlighted part to clear up misunderstandings.

  44. ISO #94

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    Sigh. At this point I don't even know if you're intentionally misrepresenting what someone said or if you just don't notice it yourself. How could you not see that the entire paragraph about you asking the questions was about how you asked them. If it was simply that you were asking questions at all I could dismiss that, but there is more to Mafia than just actions, there's intent and motive.
    I saw the paragraph. It contains you talking about what my motives could be. It does not talk about 'how' I went about this. It skips the how and cuts to the read in most respects. I do not feel that in any way I misrepresented what you said there. My response was to suggest that the read makes more sense with that additional information.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    In the part I highlighted, you misrepresent what he said. It's not that you're pretending to be from another site. It's that you've made it clear you're from another site and yet asked such a silly question for reasons we can only assume but the ones I can think of do not help your case. Now, you said you wanted to create the norm where asking questions is normal and even somewhat expected. Do you honestly believe that this is how you could make this happen? The question at best helped to clear a confusion. The result is that you wouldn't come close to what you expect, it'd make people ask questions if they're confused.
    This is moderately obnoxious and would not be an issue at all if people were not com hunting. I am not from another site. Let that be the end of that. I guess there is a bold line between trolling and pointing things out that can not be blurred.

    I wanted conversation and I have it. I am rather happy with all the discussion that has come from an odd host question. We could after all still be laughing about the origin of our names right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    In this highlighted part, you misrepresent what he said again. He said that you want to seem knowledgable, not experienced. Yet you said he does. Is being knowledgable the same as being experienced? Not necessarily, depending where you're coming from. You can be knowledgable while being new, not because you play a lot of Mafia but because you have gained this knowledge through one way or another. If he really meant knowledgable as in experienced is something only he can now. If he meant experienced then I can only point to my read and say that yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone pretending to be new to then contradict this image by wanting to show that he's an experienced player.
    Because I substituted the word experienced for knowledgeable I am twisting his words? Honestly. Read his post. Its the same message either way. If you are going to be that technical its going to be a very long game and you will find such issues in every interaction. I do not feel that I twisted his message in the slightest and I am surprised you do not see this as him twisting my words. He said I am trying to appear that I am new and he also said I am trying to appear I am knowledgeable. You would have to amend the way you view the intention of my post to something really strange in order to make any sense of that. I would sooner call it a contradiction because that makes sense to me. Its a logical conclusion that fits. And if you read through the posts and came to this conclusion I will just take your answer as you do not see him manipulating my words at all.

  45. ISO #95

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Plaguelands View Post
    The rest of the defense in the post I quoted last is okay but still amouns to you trying to discredit him as a player rather than discrediting his arguments. One might think they're the same thing but I believe there's a difference.
    I agree that there is a very big difference and I do not believe I cut to character assassination at any point. The closest thing I have said is "It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though." I pointed out that his original FoS was weak which is something you agree with. And I pointed out that he is manipulating my words which you disagree with. Neither of these things discredits him as a player any more than you are discrediting me as a player here. Its an attack on the argument presented and not on the player making it.

  46. ISO #96

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    You've also said I have dodged questions multiple times, and implied that was scum motivated. I asked you what questions I missed, and you have yet to respond. Also, such behavior is very unlikely to be scum motivated. Scum have no incentive to miss questions at all because it removes their opportunity to persuade others that they are town.

    Substituting my words for a word that is easier to discredit is scummy. Appearing knowledgable and experienced are two totally separate things. Appearing knowledgable engenders a feeling of trust to get people to follow you because this guy knows what he's doing. It's a pretty common scum tactic.

    Appearing experienced on the other hand obviously is not alignment indicative. That also makes someone a threat to every opposing faction in the game. It is something that rarely helps out anyon in an anonymous com game with no PR information out.

    I am also interested in hearing your response to #92 for the section where I have supposedly misrepresented you.

    Finally, when I also want D1 to be useful, the slightest thing scummy can be used for a serious vote. A wagon should develop on that player. It is frustrating that players still want to troll around when Day 1 has the closest thing to a natural state and scum cannot fashion a narrative to the game

  47. ISO #97

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    I will respond in a little while. I found that they leaked 4 episodes of the new Game of Thrones : ). 2 left

    I did not respond yesterday because I felt like you were really getting frustrated. When I was pushing I did not really notice there could be somewhat of a language barrier and I felt somewhat guilty for it.

  48. ISO #98

  49. ISO #99

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    I saw the paragraph. It contains you talking about what my motives could be. It does not talk about 'how' I went about this. It skips the how and cuts to the read in most respects. I do not feel that in any way I misrepresented what you said there. My response was to suggest that the read makes more sense with that additional information.
    With "how" I mean the way someone is doing something. For me, that would be how you are asking the question (as opposed to only the what: you are asking the question). This includes for me: What your question is, what your motive could be for asking this specific question. I am of the belief that I already talked about these things in my read. As such I disagree that I did not mention the "how" in my read.

    This is moderately obnoxious and would not be an issue at all if people were not com hunting. I am not from another site. Let that be the end of that. I guess there is a bold line between trolling and pointing things out that can not be blurred.
    You can even find tells in trolling believe it or not and I am of the belief that anything said in a FM is said intentionally. This obviously then leads to the question of the use of the word "wolf" so it's natural that this would strike people as odd, however annoying you find that. It's not about COM hunting, it's about finding out the motive for using an uncommon word.

    Because I substituted the word experienced for knowledgeable I am twisting his words? Honestly. Read his post. Its the same message either way. If you are going to be that technical its going to be a very long game and you will find such issues in every interaction. I do not feel that I twisted his message in the slightest and I am surprised you do not see this as him twisting my words. He said I am trying to appear that I am new and he also said I am trying to appear I am knowledgeable. You would have to amend the way you view the intention of my post to something really strange in order to make any sense of that. I would sooner call it a contradiction because that makes sense to me. Its a logical conclusion that fits. And if you read through the posts and came to this conclusion I will just take your answer as you do not see him manipulating my words at all.
    In the end however the fact remains that Mal'ganis feels like you misrepresented what he was saying. You could've asked him how you had done so, I'm sure the dialogue between you two could've been more constructive that way. What I saw was that you tried getting answers from him to some vague question and it was not clear to me if it was hidden inbetween one of the posts or if you just wanted answers to some specific accusations and I for one had no clue what question you were referring to when you asked him repeatedly and even told him you wouldn't let the matter drop. But maybe I'm the odd one here in that regard, this specific aspect is not a big deal to me either way though, keep in mind that if you want clear answers you need to ask clear questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-FM Dalaran View Post
    I agree that there is a very big difference and I do not believe I cut to character assassination at any point. The closest thing I have said is "It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though." I pointed out that his original FoS was weak which is something you agree with. And I pointed out that he is manipulating my words which you disagree with. Neither of these things discredits him as a player any more than you are discrediting me as a player here. Its an attack on the argument presented and not on the player making it.
    It is the tone however that makes me think that it is more of discrediting the player with some arguments though, especially one of your early arguments that his accusation boils down to you pretending to be a new player is why you're scum (and I already argued that I think this is not really accurate from my POV). It aims to make the player in question seem "dumb" for his actions if you didn't realize. There were some who agreed with you, people who haven't done jack shit this game I might add and these will see Mal'ganis automatically as the weak side throughout the dialogue without even giving a thought of their own. If I had name what you did with one word, I'd say "manipulation".

  50. ISO #100

    Re: MFM XXV The Frozen Throne

    Yes Lord but it was not my intention. I expected my vote to break us out of RVS and have everyone start engaging in the thread rather than spamming. Instead, when I tried to pull others into to have a more dynamic discussion I got nothing.

    I am pretty sure Plague is town from his responses. Given his dialogue contributions, I don't expect to be voting him unless there is a cult or cop guilty. His actions are trying to stop what he sees as a TvT fight or at least has a decent possibility. Because I am unlikely to get a lynch there because LOL day 1, I am giving Plaguelands wideroom to see what he uncovers. I think he's wrong but it is important not to get so caught up in our own opinions being right.

 

 

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