limit jailor to 1 execution

[yzb25]

Isn't the reason obvious?

The average modern game of mafia lasts 5ish days until one alignment has a sure-fire win. Limiting a jailor to 3 or more executions is pointless as he pretty much has infinite executions while it matters! (Bearing in mind he won't jail on lynch days and he's unlikely to always execute a target). How many games do you see with a 3 kill jailor where the jailor goes "Oh crap, soz guys out of executions."? Few.

And if two jailors survive to the mid game (and by mid game I mean 6 or 7 players left), it's almost always gg for the evils. I mean like, even if the evils are on par in terms of numbers with the town, they're still probably screwed by town killing scum faster at night than scum killing town at night! How fucking ridiculous!

Also, because of the strength of jailor, vigilante becomes simply weaker. Be honest, is there truly any situation where you'd say "Vigilante isn't even equal to jailor in this situation! Vigilante is simply better in this situation!"? There are very, very few situations where this would apply and even in those situations that's probably just because it's a cult save and the host did the right thing and heavily limited the jailor's executions. (So not worthy of a 1/3 chance when the chances are you want vigi 1/10th of the time)

Jailor is also much easier to confirm than it's town killing counterparts.

BUT THAT'D ALL CHANGE IF JAILOR WAS LIMITED TO 1 KILL!

He'd have a sane level of confirmability for a town killing, he'd be far more tactical with his last execution and would fear running out, he'd be par with vigilante, and, what's more, he wouldn't be so ridiculous in double jailor situations stopping scum kill while killing scum themselves! It'd be the best mafia christmas present EVER dark.revenant!

Plus, in a really weird way, this will get rid of failors in public games! If the jailor only has 1 execution he's far less likely to waste it on an afk doc he found n1, or even a crappy jester!

P.S. If you did do this however I'd think it'd only be right to remove him from town power, as he wouldn't be as auto-confirm any more.

P.S.S. You're probably feeling naturally opposed to this idea because this is a big change to mafia! You'll miss the happy days of whiping out the whole scum and stopping them kill anyone easily, single-handedly as jailor and getting praise from the town! "Good jailor!" they said, I bet! And you know what? That's ok! That's natural! But do you know what the solution is? Man the fuck up.

[kyle1234513]

theres an option to make jailor only have 1 execute, if you dont like it a certain way just make sure your save is the way you want it to be, ie jailor only has 1 execute.

the trick to make your save always picked, is "create private game, and then open game to public" and it will always be your save.

people should have the option to customize how they want, ie give jailor multiple executions, its all their opinions but thats what it is, their customized idea of what they want, thats why its called "custom save"

[yzb25]

theres an option to make jailor only have 1 execute, if you dont like it a certain way just make sure your save is the way you want it to be, ie jailor only has 1 execute.

the trick to make your save always picked, is "create private game, and then open game to public" and it will always be your save.

people should have the option to customize how they want, ie give jailor multiple executions, its all their opinions but thats what it is, their customized idea of what they want, thats why its called "custom save"

Oh yeah, that was the other thing I wanted to mention. Unfortunately, some restrictions have to be forced into place because the mainstream mafia players have grown accustomed to a certain way and won't change it themselves.

Freedom in saves isn't always for the better. It's going to sound arrogant but, often the people who play the game far more understand the game far better and should make decisions above the mainstream. Does Blizzard listen to the community when balancing starcraft 2? No. Is starcraft 2 one of the most balanced games in existence? Yes.

Even if you put the option automatically on 1 execution, people will just put it up to 3 executions. Most mafia games I see the jailor almost always has 3 exections.



As for doing the make game public thing, meh. I honestly don't care enough to wait 15 minutes for a second lobby to fill up AND risk the game never even starting due to leave trains or game taking too long to connect. (But I've got the patience to make a long thread about a balance issue on forums and whine - what dedication xD)

P.S. You think most people actually care about their saves!? Naw! Most people don't give a crap about their saves and have just done a -save from another save! Depressing but, alas, true.

[kyle1234513]

what you are describing is something that is completely game breaking overpowered and nerf is imminent, but it just isnt, people can be failors, or true jailors and save the town, because it can swing its whats important and what makes it fair. a smart jailor could save the town, and execute all the mafia, or neutral killer and 2 maf, what have you, and be extremely clutch in saving the town, the other possibility is he totally fails and executes randomly, or without thinking, and does more harm than good, this is just as likely, which is what makes it fine.

and there could be lynchings most days and jailor never even gets the chance to execute more than once. these are all possibilities.

overall, its up to the jailors skill to be good or bad for the town. forcing jailor to always have 1 kill would be bad because if hes wrong once he no longer has the chance to redeem himself later in the game, and he woldnt be able to kill the person who was outed as janitor, or forgery. only roleblock them or jail someone else in hopes they are godfather and can only stall the game longer.

jailor needs the option of multiple kills so that he can save the town in certain situations as opposed to heavily relying on openly claiming i jailed this person and no one is died. im jailor, come target me.

[Voss]

P.S. You think most people actually care about their saves!? Naw! Most people don't give a crap about their saves and have just done a -save from another save! Depressing but, alas, true.

how do you know this?

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

I think it depends on the save really.

Also, I won't deny that I would also do a random killing if I had 3 executions. IMO sometimes the trolls can be more damaging to the town if they are left alive. If i had only 2 executions on the other hand, I am likely to reconsider. I think 2 executions is good enough to prevent random executions, don't really know though.

[Raptorblaze]

As someone who plays town killing a lot, 2 executions is generally the best balance for a skilled jailor. It causes you to think carefully before executing while still providing a second chance if you screw up. Also you have to remember that most towns are rather lynch-happy, which severely limits a jailor's kill opportunities in the first place. A game might last 5 days, and the town might only not lynch one of those days anyway.

[powerofdeath]

Situation where vig > jailor
Lynch somebody everyday

I put 2 executions in my save for jailors instead of 3

[Slaol]

I generally feel Town Killing should be Town's strongest set of roles. Jailor, Veteran, Vigilante, Marshall. These roles are gambits. Containing a lot of power and being expected to sink or swim. They should be given the maximum amount of options and allowed to try to single handedly win the game, while being VERY likely to singlehanded lose the game.
Raptorblaze is correct to say that Town is regularly going to lynch, especially with the implementation of Kidnapper and Marshall increasing the frequency and amount of lynches.

I see no reason to lock this option to 1 execution.

[yzb25]

Thankyou for the feedback, by the way. I might come across as in a bad mood but I genuinely enjoying pooing on roles like this and the feedback helps me develop my own thoughts.

how do you know this?

Generally when you make something and it takes a solid 20 minutes (assuming you really, REALLY care about your save it tends to take 20 minutes to think up and then create), you have this general psychological thing that makes you want to show it to others. Because your creation feels worthless if noone else admires / criticizes it. Also, people don't hold back on the internet 90% of the time - The anonymous factor means they don't even try to control their impulses. So if people got an urge to show eachother saves that they made, there'd be 10 or 11 people saying "repick me! repick me!" instead of 1 or 2. This leads me to the explanation that most people just copied a save off someone else and therefore did not create it and therefore have no impulse to show it to others.

I think it depends on the save really.

Also, I won't deny that I would also do a random killing if I had 3 executions. IMO sometimes the trolls can be more damaging to the town if they are left alive. If i had only 2 executions on the other hand, I am likely to reconsider. I think 2 executions is good enough to prevent random executions, don't really know though.

Your argument about saves is just Kyle's coming up again in a different form. It's freedom of saves to make them more customizable vs. controlled, balanced saves that lack customization but are guaranteed to be good. The thing is, maybe there are SOME saves (few and far between, even though I've never seen one there's probably one person who uses it) that DO use 3 kill jailors in a BALANCED way. But the point remains that the majority don't know how to use this power and 90% use 3 execution jailors and 99% of that 90% use the 3 execution jailor badly.



Uh, when it comes to TWO executions, meh. I guess two executions makes you think harder, but considering how jailors usually WANT (And I mean want, not as in you kill an extra scum in jail for the ego boost), you usually WANT 2 executions, if you give 2 executions, you're not really putting much strain on jailors. No, it'd be much better to make jailors squirm with 1 execution force 'em to strain like the other town killings.

"overall, its up to the jailors skill to be good or bad for the town. forcing jailor to always have 1 kill would be bad because if hes wrong once he no longer has the chance to redeem himself later in the game, and he woldnt be able to kill the person who was outed as janitor, or forgery. only roleblock them or jail someone else in hopes they are godfather and can only stall the game longer.

jailor needs the option of multiple kills so that he can save the town in certain situations as opposed to heavily relying on openly claiming i jailed this person and no one is died. im jailor, come target me." - KYLE

Of course, even if you use that 1 execution on a doctor, you've fucked up, but you can still get a decent score overall. It's not too late to get valuable information and get a couple of scum lynched and wipe the slate clean.




To reply to raptor, power and slaol I'm gonna use another post. This one's getting too long.

[yzb25]

As someone who plays town killing a lot, 2 executions is generally the best balance for a skilled jailor. It causes you to think carefully before executing while still providing a second chance if you screw up. Also you have to remember that most towns are rather lynch-happy, which severely limits a jailor's kill opportunities in the first place. A game might last 5 days, and the town might only not lynch one of those days anyway.

The only new thing you brought up is about the lynches. So, I'm going to explain some lynching logic.

(I pretty much talked about executions to white boy, anyway. Even though 2 executions is IDEAL and what you WANT, you don't wanna give the town what they WANT, you wanna give the town a little less to, you know, make 'em squirm and give 'em a challenge =3)

If you're guiltying scum every day, well then, the town is winning anyway! Right? And if town's lynching all the wrong people, well, town's fucked anyway! xD. Think about it, if the town is lynching a bunch of goodies, then the doctors don't know who to heal, the investigatives don't know who to investigate, the powers have too many people to interrogate, everything turns on its head. This applies with 3 kill jailors and 1 kill jailors, even if they could jail during lynch days.

So, the example above, I'm not going to even consider because, well, his executions are insignificant - he cannot even use 1 rationally.

Well, now let's consider the OTHER possibilities now, where jailor DOES have enough jail nights to use his kills. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to split this into three situations which I believe to be the most common examples of when he can use his executions.

Early game non lynch: The town has no leads in the early days, so the jailors are jailing every night. If there are no leads, how can the jailor really execute anyone without rdm? He can kill the suspicious investigator who perhaps only gave the target he checked last night but he can't really be sure! If we only had 1 execution we would stop this early rdm example. The chances are, if he uses his executions, he kills a town! 2/3 of players are towns. And with the addition of kidnapper, that investigator may be acting suspicious deliberately because he thinks you're a kidnapper and is trying to seem like a witch! The odds are simply against you! By reducing it to 1 execution we totally get rid of the temptation to rdm and we force the jailor to think alot more! He can still be of use to the town interrogating people - he's not useless! Just... refined =3.

Late game scum: It has reached a point where there are no lynches due to a high concentration of one scummy alignment and the balance has crumbled. For example, there's 3 mafia and 3 town. Now, be honest with yourself. Do you REALLY think it's fair a town killing steamrolls mafia at this point, when with some simple lynch logic you can easily find all the mafia? I mean, veteran has a slim chance of killing the gf if he's not found yet but that's about as likely as a bodyguard killing the godfather and getting healed. Perhaps a vigilante can kill a mafioso while getting healed, too! Now, let's look at jailor! He could potentially kill the godfather, the consort, and the framer without losing a single town with his 3 executions. Now, I'm no expert at balance but uh... *cough* fucking ridiculous *cough*. But if we limited him to 1 execution, (He'd probably still have his 1 execution because of the natural instinct to save things we only have 1 of) he'd help the town edge ahead and just like in the other examples of town killings - he'd be on par! And a slim win is far more badass than an imba steamroll, if you ask moi!

Late game town: Muh, 5 town and 1 mafioso. All the killings do a fair job in this situation.

Do you see what I mean? Even if on the outside 3 killings looks par / better, when you look deeper you see that actually 1 kill is far sexier.

Situation where vig > jailor
Lynch somebody everyday

I put 2 executions in my save for jailors instead of 3

Again, I explained the 2 exes vs 1 exe argument.

The lynch logic here is similar to previous lynch logic from the perspective of the vigilante.

If the town is lynching loads of scum, well, the vigilante probably isn't really needed. If the town is lynching loads of their own then, well, the vigilante will probably fuck up just as much as everyone else - He has just as little proof as the lynching town and, even if he kills a scum, it'll probably come at the price of a couple of towns, which in this situation, is NOT a good exchange.

I'll save slaol his own reply =3. Not because there's an odd number and I have to make Slaol on his own! No, Slaol is speshul! Of course! =3

[yzb25]

I generally feel Town Killing should be Town's strongest set of roles. Jailor, Veteran, Vigilante, Marshall. These roles are gambits. Containing a lot of power and being expected to sink or swim. They should be given the maximum amount of options and allowed to try to single handedly win the game, while being VERY likely to singlehanded lose the game.
Raptorblaze is correct to say that Town is regularly going to lynch, especially with the implementation of Kidnapper and Marshall increasing the frequency and amount of lynches.

I see no reason to lock this option to 1 execution.

Yup, they should have no limits so you know what, they should all be allowed to kill 5 people n1 AT LEAST. After all, I see the town killings as a win or sink therefore they should have NO limits.

Well you could say "yzb25 you smartass! They do have limits! Just within rational reason!" Well we have very different ideas of rational reason! Just because you've got used to 3 executions doesn't make it rational. With your attitude good sir, we'd still have Apartheid! Doesn't that make you feel like a terrible person?

And you see no reason to lock to 1 execution? Haven't you seen how jailor is stronger than its counterparts and should be nerfed to their level? Haven't you seen how much sexier and cooler the tension of only 1 execution is? Haven't you seen Slaol? Are you blind?

None of the town killings can singlehandedly win the game. If the town is fucking up and lynching itself, there is no hope without great fluke. Maybe the vigi kills all the mafia by fluke, maybe by fluke and a stroke of stupidity all the mafia visit the veteran. The BG can only kill 1 scum.

[SuperJack]

If town is lynching alot, then they must be following some logical lead. LOL. No, they Don't. Town are mostly Sheep.

^^

[yzb25]

^^

I quickly got rid of that part in the edited version 20 mins later - town being logical IN A PUB GAME? What was I thinking? =3

[Slaol]

they should all be allowed to kill 5 people n1 AT LEAST.

That is a terrible idea.

Yup, they should have no limits so you know what, they should all be allowed to kill 5 people n1 AT LEAST. After all, I see the town killings as a win or sink therefore they should have NO limits.

I didn't say no limits.

Well you could say "yzb25 you smartass! They do have limits! Just within rational reason!" Well we have very different ideas of rational reason! Just because you've got used to 3 executions doesn't make it rational. With your attitude good sir, we'd still have Apartheid! Doesn't that make you feel like a terrible person?

... wut?

And you see no reason to lock to 1 execution? Haven't you seen how jailor is stronger than its counterparts and should be nerfed to their level?

Jailor is nerfed to the extent it needs to be anyway. Lynches prevent it from acting. Kidnapper removes it's auto-confirm feedback. It is still a strong role, but it is balanced until Jailors are spammed, which is true of every role.

Haven't you seen how much sexier and cooler the tension of only 1 execution is? Haven't you seen Slaol? Are you blind?

I am not blind. I have just played an exceedingly large amount of Mafia games. Enough to know the difference between a broken role and user error.

None of the town killings can singlehandedly win the game. If the town is fucking up and lynching itself, there is no hope without great fluke.

Well if they are doing that so often why worry about Jailor kills?

Maybe the vigi kills all the mafia by fluke, maybe by fluke and a stroke of stupidity all the mafia visit the veteran. The BG can only kill 1 scum.

Your choice to use 'fluke' as a word explains your lack of separation between what you expect roles to do at random, and the player decision making behind it.

Roles do not lose games.
Players lose games.

Due to this fact, the Jailor roles does not need to be limited in any way more than it is. You act as if Jailor having more than 1 kill is an instant lose for evils at all times, yet Town only wins ~40-45% of the time. Even with Jailor being one of the most common roles built in. Jailors kill Town just as often as they kill evil.

I would be curious, however, how many shots Vigilante should be locked to? You mention Bodyguard has 1 successful Guard, and making Jailor one Execution, so how many Shots does Vigilante get locked to and how many Alerts should Veteran have?

[Raptorblaze]

Ok then let me be perfectly clear about this. The only new thing you've brought up is that you're enormously butthurt about town being able to kill anything.

Not everyone wants a game where town has to solely rely on lynches in order to get anything done.

Your suggestion has been denied.