Neutral Killing very broken right now?

[TheDarkestLight]

Muh people are starting to go off topic. This thread is not for this kinda thing. I'm not sure if TheDarkestLight is proposing a counter-argument or if he's just putting random input. If he is putting random input I ask that you please take other conversations to do with neutral killing elsewhere, as opposed to conversations about Serial Killer having a higher KPN than Arsonist which results in games with Serial Killer being harder for the town. If you are inputting I'd like to note that this thread is not about how hard it is for the neutral killing to win but rather the effect adding a neutral killing random to a save has on the town alignment.

cookies4you actually came up with a pretty decent idea. Because that will make up for the problem that if Arsonist is lynched his douses will be meaningless in terms of deterring on town. Maybe that could be a toggle-able option that the night he dies / the night after the day he dies his burns will go off so Arsonist is actually a scary character, for the town.

It was a counter argument, also it was to give slight insight as to what you're supposed to do because some people complain about how things are weak when they play it wrong.

Also the Arsonist thing would be useless, and it appears that it will be a kind of troll option. It does not help the Arsonist whatsoever. Does the random guilty voter dies for Jester change anything? Yes, it makes the town not want to lynch him. If the Arsonist had this option on, he could just claim arson and say, "Oh I'm Arson and you can't lynch me or else all my doused targets will die, so instead you have to let me finish dousing the rest of you so you can die anyway."

There is absolutely no problem with Neutral Killers right now.

[Damus_Graves]

Don't make your arguments attacks. There are better ways to get your point across.

[TheDarkestLight]

I apologize sir. I will attempt to refrain myself from doing such again.

[Deantwo]

You guys are misunderstanding the subject of this thread again.

The problem (as for as I understand), is about the RANDOM CATEGORY Neutral Killing and not the roles in it.

Just wanted to make this clear.

It is right now possible to find out what role came out of this random category pretty much from day 2 or 3.
I guess this could be solved by the host if he simply use Neutral Evil instead, but yeah.

[Kirdaiht]

You know, this entire problem can be avoided by taking balance in account when you build your save. Don't mash a bunch of randoms together and expect it to work, but try to work out the possibilities.
If you find that your save will be too easy on the town if the neutral-killer rolls an arsonist, don't use neutral killing in your save. Try a confirmed serial-killer or a mass murderer instead.
There is really nothing wrong with the arsonist as it is, and any change that would make the impact of an arsonist equal to the serial-killer would most likely result in over-powering the arsonist or under-powering the serialkiller.

[Lazers]

You guys are misunderstanding the subject of this thread again.

The problem (as for as I understand), is about the RANDOM CATEGORY Neutral Killing and not the roles in it.

Just wanted to make this clear.

It is right now possible to find out what role came out of this random category pretty much from day 2 or 3.
I guess this could be solved by the host if he simply use Neutral Evil instead, but yeah.

Killing roles are obvious for a reason. Because they can, uh, kill. Other neutrals don't have that ability, so they rely on stealth instead. How is this an issue? That isn't even considering that other killing slots function basically the same way

[yzb25]

Muh, I was scared this would happen xD. The thread has grown so ridiculously huge that people aren't even bothering to read it and are reading the last couple of posts, so the same counter arguments are coming up again .

This thread relies on one simply logical idea: PEOPLE DYING AT A SLOWER RATE = MORE TIME FOR TOWN TO WORK OUT WHO IS EVIL WHICH MEANS = MORE LIKELY WIN FOR TOWN. If one NK kills the town faster than another then he would make the game harder for the town, generally.

NOTE: Deantwo was kinda close but uh, what this thread is about is the fact than in the neutral killing random you get Arsonist, Serial Killer and MM. The main reason they're added to saves nowadays is to make it harder for the town. Let's face it, we see NKs every game, and they are rarely incorporated in an interesting way, as opposed to the cult.

The problem is with this is that they deter on the town to different levels. Arsonist has a much lower KPN than a Serial Killer because his douse targets could die, he needs a night to set his burns off and if he gets lynched all his hard work is for nothing. On the other hand SK is a consistent (kills rbers anyway) fighter that even if he's lynched d5 still managed to contribute a decent 3 or 4 kills to the game and deter on town.

Now, there are solutions to this. For example, SIMPLY NOT USING NEUTRAL KILLING RANDOM AND USING MORE NEUTRAL EVILS/BENIGNS INSTEAD XD. But the problem is that even if we sit here and say how things should be, it doesn't change things for everyone else. 90% of mafia saves are standard 9-3-3s or slight variations and the key feature of the 9-3-3 is there are always 3 maf and THERE IS ALWAYS A NK RANDOM TO DETER ON TOWN.

Now, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ARSONIST BEING HARDER TO WIN WITH, OR SERIAL KILLER BEING EASIER TO WIN WITH. This thread is about PURELY what I just said. Anything else can be discussed elsewhere.

The best proposed solution to make SK have the same KPN as the other NKs I've seen is making it so that the SK has some sort of limit on his consistency e.g. every third time he tries to kill he must rest instead or something.

P.S. Lazers, if you're not going to listen and just throw accusations at people, you may as well not bother even debating. I will never be able to pull you to my side with that attitude. So you may as well leave or directly address my debate.

P.S.S. Yeah TheDarkestLight, Arsonist killing doused at night probably wouldn't resolve the problem well. Arsonist is a very fragile role and making even small changes can screw everything up. But I still feel like you're not getting what I mean?

[Damus_Graves]

Your problem is that Arson doesnt kill as consistently as SK but then you say thats not the problem. Then you say that is the problem. I believe that this thread has run its course. If you'd like me to reopen it for continued discussion please PM me with a clearly stated discussion topic as well as the reason for your desire to reopen it.