The things that blocks -Mafia- from reaching top10 ever again...

[Brodersen]

SEE attachment replay (but I think most people are more than familiar with this problem): -Mafia- Typical game start fail.SC2Replay

1) Games fail to load! Extremely frustrating for many players, and it appears the issue is with the map, not Battle.net.

SOLUTION TO 1):
Developers gotta take another look at the code I guess. I've heard it's a horrifying thing to watch, that you never fully recover from ;)


------------


2) Is the tedious 'Setup' process everyone has to endure at the start of every game. This blocks -Mafia- from being more mainstream and ever getting back into top10. Many games lose players in this setup process or even fails to start at all (quite common) because everyone relies on one person's action (afk/newb?) OR that enough people know about -repick and setups (and is paying attention). New players are also scared away by the complexity of this stage of the game (game too geeky/boring/seems hard to learn). People just want to play immediately, and a decently balanced setup with possibility for fun roles. People DON'T want to sit and wait for 1 person to tool around with setup options or return from afk. They simply want to play NOW!


Solution to 2): -Mafia- should have 2 modes, 'Normal' and 'Custom': First is the new standard mode, 'Normal', which is the new fast mainstream mafia, I'll try to explain.

The community/developers create a number of setups, that are popular/fun/diverse. Each of these setups are then displayed as button choices for each player, and the players can mouse over each to see the setup.
Players then click the setup they like to vote on and have 10seconds to do so. After 10 seconds the setup with the most votes are played. Players now pick their names/hats/characters and start!

Developers can update/change/add/remove setups over time, replacing unpopular ones with new ones. Better have a few flexible fun and popular ones, than too many wierd unpopular ones. It shouldn't become overwhelming.

Here's a suggestion for a "Standard" setup with all roles possible for a highly replayable game:
Godfather
Mafia Deceptive
Mafia Support
Neutral Killer (SK/MM/arso)
Any Random (exclude killing/mafia/town)
Any Random (exclude killing/mafia/town)
Sherif
Doctor
Investigator
Jailor
Town Killer
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Random
Town Random

Another suggestion could be a similar setup but with fixed cult/mason leader. The point is that these setups can be changed/added over time based on community feedback and popular demand, but it's not unlikely that people will stick to just a couple of popular setups that have great replayability due to "Random" roles.

Hope result: -Mafia- games become faster and fun to play and get into. After players have voted on their desired setup, the game starts after 10 seconds and you are up and picking your name/character/hat right away, with a balanced decent and tested setup.

No more confusion and waiting for new players, especially when host is AFK, or -repicking becomes a frustration. No more people leaving after minutes of waiting. No more troll saves or frustration during the setup process resulting in leavers. No more host having to reconfigure the setup whenever someone gets impatient and unhappy and leaves, which results in more delay and more leavers. No more figuring out who got a save at the start of every game. No more game start failures, leaving a horrible impression to new players. No more typing "Please all type -repick".

If players want to use a lot of time creating and experiment with the setup options, they can it in 'Custom'-Mode with their friends, or fool around alone creating a save without wasting 14 other peoples time.


"But what about leavers during setup?". If players leave at any point during setup, shouldn't matter. The voted game still starts after 10 seconds regardless of leavers. If there are less than a full game, then the game automatically just removes roles from the list (in a predefined order, set by the developers), when the game starts, to always ensure an "as balanced" setup as possible.


------------


3) New players don't know what Last Will is, and how should they? People don't read the Help, and even the help is bad at delivering this information. Last Will is too important a tool to be hidden away, and many people are wrongly lynched because they don't know about LW.


Solution to 3): Make a simple 'Last Will' button to open/close the LW, and in the pre-entered text ("Type your last will here"), instead write something like "Here you can write down your clues and notes in your Last Will.".


———————————————————————————

I had to add this quote from another play:

What you wish to be included into the game, in an effort to increase it's already fair popularity, would be something of a failed attempt as, unfortunately, it has already been attempted, and failed. The save mode, Ranked, was a call for pre-setup saves with the side incentive of points earned/lost each game, something that normally gives the mob of players a particularly enormous desire to play in the first place. Unfortunately this never took off into popularity due to the abysmal reality that it was of little interest to the targeted audience. Thus it would be a safe assumption to assume that your own suggested solution, which is really and truly only an excuse to complain and "debate", in some sense it would be argued an attempt to insult, among the poor few who have attempted to engage you with reason.

Oh boy.

You didn't make Ranked the default choice = nobody plays it, nobody knows it exists, nobody is told it exists, therefor no Ranked games are filled, and nobody can judge it's popularity because nobody joins it by default.

It's not the default setting = it CANT become the popular choice REGARDLESS of it being the most fun choice.

It is absolutely retarded to suggest that you can add an additional 'non-default' Mode and expect people to play it more than the default lobby they automatically join when they click the Play button.

No arcade map does this. No arcade map has a non-default mode that is more popular than the default mode you play when you click Play without fiddling with the Mode select.
Default will ALWAYS be filled fastest, and people like that, they want games that fill fast! They want to play right now.

Especially new players (mainstream audience you want to attract), why on earth should they know about Ranked Mode if they are new to the game, even if it's the mode that would have left them with the best impression of the game?

This should be so obvious, the next person who suggests it has already been proven in Ranked and wasn't more popular than default Custom is a fucking joke or troll.



New players want to get in and test the map immediately, and the way they currently do that, is clicking Play, entering a game where everyone often have to type -repick to pick a host to setup the game, and if not enough does that (or is AFK) then this can take long or in some cases even fail with people leaving the game and remaking (or leaving permanently), this is dead boring to watch.
Or what if you are new and become host, and are presentet with a crapload of options, and everyone is telling you you are noob and should type this and that ("repick me!", "no repick me!"). After you do that, someone else uses his setup, changes a few things on some roles, and start, you wait another 15seconds for countdown, then select name, and FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY you can actually start playing and trying the map. Zzz. After such a crapride, it's no surprise that if you also die early, you ain't coming back to this map, ever.

I can remember other Arcade maps I tried that also had a crappy setup/pre-game process that just made me go "whatever" and leave as well and try something else.
-Mafia- is the one and only map with a crappy pre-game experience (excluding picking a name, thats cool), that I'm still playing.

[TheDarkestLight]

Ranked is the same exact thing, and look at where that thing is.

[Mugy]

Creating separate modes will effectively destroy mafia's ranking even more. The popularity ranking is determined by the mode on the top of the list. People will be split into custom and normal or worse, completely return to custom while newbies wanting to play the game are stuck in the normal lobby that noone else ever joins. I think the current system isn't good, but there isn't anything better.

[Brodersen]

Creating separate modes will effectively destroy mafia's ranking even more. The popularity ranking is determined by the mode on the top of the list. People will be split into custom and normal or worse, completely return to custom while newbies wanting to play the game are stuck in the normal lobby that noone else ever joins. I think the current system isn't good, but there isn't anything better.

You are wrong here.

Nobody plays Ranked Mode or any other mode that is not the standard mode. The standard mode will always be the most played mode by a HUGE HUGE margin, it's what everyone selects by default, and what everyone base their experience off.

New people who are playing -Mafia- for the first time even more so. Why should they discover Ranked mode? Why should they care? They are still learning the game or already left because of a bad experience with trying to start one, and ain't coming back.

Go join a public game, wait until you are inside the game, and then ask people how many noticed the Ranked Mode before they hit play? How many have played a Ranked game?
The response you'll get is only a couple knows it exists, and will say that nobody joins it (because you have to plan with 14 other random people to go there and wait for you, and that's not gonna happen). BUT also notice that likely someone who did find Ranked Mode and did manage to play it once, actually enjoyed it and wouldn't mind playing it again if it was possible.

***

-Mafia-'s current state of popularity is severely hurt by a tideous and failed setup phase that bores people to leave or scares them away and occasionally even makes games fail to load.

As long as the developers and this community fails to realize a noticeable change is needed for this mod to strive again, the -Mafia will be forever stuck in a slowly decaying state, and eventually fade away, despite the actually gameplay when you finally get into a good balanced game, is brilliant worthy of a stable Top10 placement. With that said, I'll leave it to you.

[Mugy]

SO you're saying we should sacrifice the custom mode's popularity so that we can increase our chance of keeping new players?
I don't think it's worth it. I would rather -Mafia- be in its current state than have more players but with less variety of game-play.
If you keep playing the same setup you will get bored of it, full stop. Custom mode fixes this problem buy allowing anyone to host(depending on their luck) thus allowing a wide range of setups.
People who have played the "standard" mode for a while will want to play the custom mode, the custom mode will be less popular because the standard mode is default, thus there will be less custom mode games going.
People will get bored of standard and won't be able to play the custom mode. Mafia dies.

[vashliongod]

I have fell in love with this game since about 2011 and will continue to play it as long as it is available. with that been said, there are some valid points and invalid on both sides. no i did not notice a ranked button untill recently like a month ago. i still have yet to play a ranked game. since 2011 i have NEVER played a standard game. and what makes ppl leave is not the tedious set up proccess its how many cant agree on what a good save is and what is not my save usually has good feedback

godfather
mafia support
mafia deceptive
doctor
sherif
jailor
town protective
town protective
town investigative
town investigative
town core
town random
neutral killing
neutral evil
neutral benign.

it seems other ppl eith slam jailors or town killing roles or any randoms make the game unballanced as 4 mafia is rediculous.

the last will and death note are completely opposite. one is the box and the other is how i originally remembered it. they both should be a box and yes an easy access button should be implemented.

[Brodersen]

Ranked is the same exact thing, and look at where that thing is.

Do this: Go play 10 public games and DON'T offer the aid to host the game. Instead just shut up and watch how it goes. You will see games start fast, you will see games that don't start at all, and you will see horribly unbalanced setups and leavers. Then come back and try to persuade me that there is no problem at all, and -Mafia- is on its way to becoming a Top10 game.

Seriously though:
TheDarkestLight you really think the most popular mode will be the one where you constantly have to tell everyone it even exists in the first place?
""Hey everyone leave this lobby and come join Ranked mode! Before you click Play, you can select Ranked Mode in the dropdown box, we are 3 people already waiting!""


The purpose was to remove the horrible setup process that mainstream newbies can't comprehend and scares away new players, allow troll hosts to ruin games, or AFK hosts to prevent them from starting, so much in fact that games occationally fail to start at all on a regular basis. Games need to start faster and be balanced and fun. You think joining an alternate mode is faster? That is just the opposite of what I'm advocating.


TheDarkestLight you really think ANY non-default mode will become more popular than the default mode for ANY arcade map out there?

TheDarkestLight you really think anyone want to go to the default lobby and recruit unaware players to join your Ranked game instead, and go wait for you in Ranked until you can assemble a full team of 15, is a smart process to go through every time and will make Ranked popular?

If you think the popularity of Ranked Mode (regardless of its fun factor) can be compared to Normal mode in a popularity contest of what fills up fastest, yet Ranked is hidden for anyone who is not told it even exists and has nobody join it by default, then you are simply stupid and your opinion is not good for -Mafia- (no offence, but really)!



And btw, out of the few who have been able to play a Ranked game, many actually enjoyed it.
TheDarkestLight if you think the reason Ranked Mode is filled slowly is because it's boring, then you are badly mistaken. Ranked mode is fun, many who tried it enjoyed it, but it's slow to fill = people don't want to waste time waiting.
It's not default, and therefor automatically can never become the popular choice (you see the same thing for any other arcade map).

[Brodersen]

I have fell in love with this game since about 2011 and will continue to play it as long as it is available. with that been said, there are some valid points and invalid on both sides. no i did not notice a ranked button untill recently like a month ago. i still have yet to play a ranked game. since 2011 i have NEVER played a standard game. and what makes ppl leave is not the tedious set up proccess its how many cant agree on what a good save is and what is not my save usually has good feedback

godfather
mafia support
mafia deceptive
doctor
sherif
jailor
town protective
town protective
town investigative
town investigative
town core
town random
neutral killing
neutral evil
neutral benign.

it seems other ppl eith slam jailors or town killing roles or any randoms make the game unballanced as 4 mafia is rediculous.

the last will and death note are completely opposite. one is the box and the other is how i originally remembered it. they both should be a box and yes an easy access button should be implemented.

- People leave when they join the game for the first time, and is scared away or simply bored by a slow/complex setup process they don't want to endure every time they want to play. They don't come back.
- People leave when someone manages to start an horrible setup.
- People leave when some moron/troll gets to become host.
- People leave when everyone 14 players has to sit and wait for 1 newbie to explore the setup possibilities and create a new setup from scratch.
- People leave after waiting 30+ seconds and nothing happens.
- People leave, when not enough players -repick or knows the -repick command, or is afk waiting for the game to start.
- People leave when others start leaving, start is delayed as host has to remove a slot, and attempt to start again, at which time more people start leaving as well.
- People leave when others leave.
- People get tired with -Mafia- because it's slow.

^ This should be undeniable for everyone! ^

This is a bad experience, and from my analysis, one of the blockers that prevent -Mafia- from becoming more mainstream and increase it's popularity (and possibly reach Top10), instead of slowly fading away as it is now.

That's why I want developers to take action. Few people here seems to care.

[Brodersen]

If this community remains ignorant to changes — as currently is the case — then -Mafia- will continue to distance itself from one of the most played maps (was once top10), and eventually will slowly fade away.

[Mugy]

You cannot possibly expect the map to make up for a problem with the people who play it, many people who play this map are impatient.

For example, many want the days as short as possible, setup to be quick, night to be as short as possible but is obliging these people making the game as good as it can be? Absolutely not.

If you want to make the game fit these people for the sake of increasing its popularity rank, you may as well remove all setup options and give them the standard mode of which you are suggesting, but I don't want the people who play mafia to be like this. I don't think this idea would actually work(I outlined why in my previous post).

If people don't want to take the time to discuss or even look at the setup to make sure it's balanced, then I don't think I want them playing this game anyway. The current system does not cause leavers unless there is a troll in the host's seat.
The people who make it through the first tedious games are people who can actually learn how to play this map seriously.

The only change I can see coming from this thread is lowering the votes required to repick someone.

[Brodersen]

You cannot possibly expect the map to make up for a problem with the people who play it, many people who play this map are impatient.

For example, many want the days as short as possible, setup to be quick, night to be as short as possible but is obliging these people making the game as good as it can be? Absolutely not.

If you want to make the game fit these people for the sake of increasing its popularity rank, you may as well remove all setup options and give them the standard mode of which you are suggesting, but I don't want the people who play mafia to be like this. I don't think this idea would actually work(I outlined why in my previous post).

If people don't want to take the time to discuss or even look at the setup to make sure it's balanced, then I don't think I want them playing this game anyway. The current system does not cause leavers unless there is a troll in the host's seat.
The people who make it through the first tedious games are people who can actually learn how to play this map seriously.

The only change I can see coming from this thread is lowering the votes required to repick someone.

Yes there are kids that ragequit when they don't get a kill role, and don't want to be town (unless jailor/vigi/vet), and they want town to die, and days to be short.
But you are wrong that everyone wants that, in general town don't want days to be as short as possible so they can't talk. They want it to be short, but not as short as possible. I've played many setups where day was too short, and occasionally town complain that they can't talk and day is too short. That's just another reason to have community setups instead of having newbies decide.


And no, the behavior of the players IS the responsibility of the map maker. They have to deal with how players act, because who else can? The map fails where it requires too much action from unexperienced players. It demands that new players should sort out who should be host, and that host is responsible for quickly starting a balanced fun setup. This responsibility it too much and the map fails to realize this. Again it is the responsibility of the map, and in the end, failing to realize this problem only hurts the map's popularity, and then you can complain about it's uses all you want, but they don't care, they moved on.

Maybe some arrangement can be made that players with X points can setup a game, but most players are incapable/inexperienced, and the setup process of this map is costing -Mafia- severely on the popularity.

If you don't realize this, and sit idly by, then you will witness the map slowly fade away, mark my words. My previous argument still stands and I hope you read it carefully without the bias...for the maps sake.

[fred]

Let me put my two cents in here... Back in the past, Dark Revenant had plans to REINTRODUCE premade setups, with a shifting weekly setup featured by the community to boot. So it's not entirely out of question for him to still do such a thing.

[vashliongod]

No you are wrong, people don't want days to be as short as possible. They want it to be short, but not as short as possible. I tried this a few times, and town complain that they can't talk and day is too short. Also there is already a -skip command that can't be trolled with.

And no, the behavior of the players IS the responsibility of the map maker. They have to deal with how players act, because who else can? The map fails where it requires too much action from unexperienced players. It demands that new players should sort out who should be host, and that host is responsible for quickly starting a balanced fun setup. This responsibility it too much and the map fails to realize this. Again it is the responsibility of the map, and in the end, failing to realize this problem only hurts the map's popularity, and then you can complain about it's uses all you want, but they don't care, they moved on.

Maybe some arrangement can be made that players with X points can setup a game, but most players are incapable/inexperienced, and the setup process of this map is costing -Mafia- severely on the popularity.

If you don't realize this, and sit idly by, then you will witness the map slowly fade away, mark my words. My previous argument still stands and I hope you read it carefully without the bias...for the maps sake.

bam i love this idea players need to meet a certain point cap before being able to set up a game. i think were doing a lot of complaining and not a lot of solving.... i also think that lowering the repick is a good idea too. everybody that has a save wants their save played. i think the point that is being made here and i agree is ppl want to have choices options and not be guided into a rut. the varyation keeps the game fresh and exciting. but with variation comes confusion and dissagreements. its a tough role to fill for the devoloper. in my personal opinion take custom games out completely... and give variation pre made setups. masons vs cult,,,, 3-9-3,,,, deception (framer disguiser, spy exec jester) etc by doing this u will eliminate lengthy start times and avoid newbie setups.

[Brodersen]

bam i love this idea players need to meet a certain point cap before being able to set up a game. i think were doing a lot of complaining and not a lot of solving.... i also think that lowering the repick is a good idea too. everybody that has a save wants their save played. i think the point that is being made here and i agree is ppl want to have choices options and not be guided into a rut. the varyation keeps the game fresh and exciting. but with variation comes confusion and dissagreements. its a tough role to fill for the devoloper. in my personal opinion take custom games out completely... and give variation pre made setups. masons vs cult,,,, 3-9-3,,,, deception (framer disguiser, spy exec jester) etc by doing this u will eliminate lengthy start times and avoid newbie setups.

This! ^

In 9:10, people just want to START NOW, with a balanced/fair setup that has a chance for their favorite roles.

People HATE waiting, waiting for newbies/afk'ers, waiting due to disagreement, waiting due to host fiddling with his setup, waiting due to leavers and host has to remove a slot and restart countdown then another leaves, wait for people to -repick, wait for new random repicked host to repick someone with a save, etc etc.

^ This here is THE #1 place where -Mafia- can be greatly improved for a more mainstream player base, and hopefully a higher spot on the 'most played map' list. Because -Mafia- is a great game and deserves a top spot!

Newbies (average player) can't handle the Setup system. Let them instead vote on a fun working setup, and make sure a game starts after 10seconds, regardless. We would get much less setup fails, much faster game starts, and likely attract more players this way, for a faster and more stable overall experience.

[vashliongod]

This! ^

In 9:10, people just want to START NOW, with a balanced/fair setup that has a chance for their favorite roles.

People HATE waiting, waiting for newbies/afk'ers, waiting due to disagreement, waiting due to host fiddling with his setup, waiting due to leavers and host has to remove a slot and restart countdown then another leaves, wait for people to -repick, wait for new random repicked host to repick someone with a save, etc etc.

^ This here is THE #1 place where -Mafia- can be greatly improved for a more mainstream player base, and hopefully a higher spot on the most played map list. Because -Mafia- is a great game and deserves a top spot!

ty now excuse me im going to go play some mafia "[WCM] VashLionhart" say hi if you see me

[Brodersen]

ty now excuse me im going to go play some mafia "[WCM] VashLionhart" say hi if you see me

I play on EU :-/

But otherwise I would love to play

[vashliongod]

I play on EU :-/

But otherwise I would love to play

DAWWWW

[fred]

Note: Players with higher point totals are already favored in repicks. Hosts are determined by..well whoever was original host in the lobby.

[Cryptonic]

Note: Players with higher point totals are already favored in repicks. Hosts are determined by..well whoever was original host in the lobby.

The person with the highest points will always get Host if it is repicked. No one else matters.

[Raptorblaze]

I'm all for a point requirement to host but I doubt it'll affect anything. I'm also all for premade setups being available and prominent.
What I am NOT for is entirely removing the custom setup ability.

First, I would like to dispute one point... classic mode is not popular. At all. If anything, it's stigmatized in our community.

Second, You act as if people actually build entire setups every single game which is simply not the case. Typically a game begins, either the host or someone he repicks into loads their saved setup, MAYBE removes or adds a role to fit the player quantity, and then starts the game. Hell, most of the waiting time in setup is actually the start timer itself after you hit the button.

Third, You are asking for ranked but minus the ranked stats. That is indisputable because the entire point of ranks was standardized setups.

How about this, using anything other than premade setups requires the host to have say, 10k points? Newer players can still be the host but they'd only be able to select premades. Also I think the last will text change is rather unnecessary. What's good to put in a last will is best learned by observation rather than whatever the text happens to say. New players see experienced players leaving their investigation results etc and copy them. The lack of a last will button is because of screen constraints and I doubt there is anything DR can do about it.

[Brodersen]

I'm all for a point requirement to host but I doubt it'll affect anything. I'm also all for premade setups being available and prominent.
What I am NOT for is entirely removing the custom setup ability.

First, I would like to dispute one point... classic mode is not popular. At all. If anything, it's stigmatized in our community.

Second, You act as if people actually build entire setups every single game which is simply not the case. Typically a game begins, either the host or someone he repicks into loads their saved setup, MAYBE removes or adds a role to fit the player quantity, and then starts the game. Hell, most of the waiting time in setup is actually the start timer itself after you hit the button.

Third, You are asking for ranked but minus the ranked stats. That is indisputable because the entire point of ranks was standardized setups.

How about this, using anything other than premade setups requires the host to have say, 10k points? Newer players can still be the host but they'd only be able to select premades. Also I think the last will text change is rather unnecessary. What's good to put in a last will is best learned by observation rather than whatever the text happens to say. New players see experienced players leaving their investigation results etc and copy them. The lack of a last will button is because of screen constraints and I doubt there is anything DR can do about it.

1. I suggested that -Mafia- only had two setups, 'Normal' and 'Setup':

'Normal' Mode is where players vote on which community setup they want to play, and game starts after 10sec when the vote is counted in. Games start quick and setup is fast, reliable and balanced.

'Setup' Mode is like the game is now (no change here, except it is not the default mode).


2. I never said people make new setups every single game. Please quote me if you don't agree you misunderstood. But in some games people do fool around a long time with setup, changing settings. Also sometimes games don't start at all because people leave like a domino effect. Also some games start with horrible setups. I didn't say these things happen every time, But they do happen and is a problem amongst other problems with the setup system (besides scaring/boring people away from the game).

3. No, I don't want Ranked to be default. I want exactly what I wrote I wanted. If I only wanted Ranked to be default then I would just have said that.
(Or actually I just want the map to be more successful and player by more people. The gameplay is good and deserves more players and more attention, but atm it hinders itself with the setup system (and a few other things I could point out in another thread))

[Cryptonic]

So, you just want games to start faster? Maybe you should learn some patience, it's like 60 seconds tops.

[Brodersen]

So, you just want games to start faster? Maybe you should learn some patience, it's like 60 seconds tops.

No I don't want just games to be only faster. If I wanted only that, then I would have wrote just that.

I want the default -Mafia- to have a different setup system, like I described.
I wan't -Mafia- to become more mainstream and be played by more players, and I know what is blocking it from reaching that goal.

I think it's ignorant to think -Mafia- is done for and can't be improved in ways that will make it reach top10 again.
Maybe you don't know how to do this, but I think I do, and I got this thread and a few other ideas on where to start.

But with that said, reducing the amount of time people are just staring at the screen waiting for a game to start, is a good thin, and I argued for that as well.
People on the internet have patience like a school kid on cola, you know this from when websites are slow to load, or your waiting for a map to load. YES this hurts a games popularity if it's too slow (aka boring), and YES waiting for people to -repick and waiting for a game to start is amongst those things.

[Cryptonic]

No I don't want just games to be faster. If I wanted only that, then I would have wrote only that.

I want the default -Mafia- to have a different setup system, like I described.
I wan't -Mafia- to become more mainstream and be played by more players, and I know what is blocking it from reaching that goal.

I think it's ignorant to think -Mafia- is done for and can't be improved in ways that will make it reach top10 again.
Maybe you don't know how to do this, but I think I do, and I got this thread and a few other ideas on where to start.

Are you listening to anything anyone is saying?
Creating another mode will only lower the position that Mafia is in.

You want Custom to be changed into a verson w/ Preset saves.
Then you want Custom to be created again, putting it at the very bottom of UMS.

Everyone prefers to play Custom saves than preset, it's proven 100%... look at ranked.
Everyone will start playing Custom again, but now it'll be in like 500th position.

[FONT=Sarcastica]You're right! that's so much closer to the top 10.[/FONT]

[Damus_Graves]

What you wish to be included into the game, in an effort to increase it's already fair popularity, would be something of a failed attempt as, unfortunately, it has already been attempted, and failed. The save mode, Ranked, was a call for pre-setup saves with the side incentive of points earned/lost each game, something that normally gives the mob of players a particularly enormous desire to play in the first place. Unfortunately this never took off into popularity due to the abysmal reality that it was of little interest to the targeted audience. Thus it would be a safe assumption to assume that your own suggested solution, which is really and truly only an excuse to complain and "debate", in some sense it would be argued an attempt to insult, among the poor few who have attempted to engage you with reason.

[Brodersen]

Are you listening to anything anyone is saying?
Creating another mode will only lower the position that Mafia is in.

You want Custom to be changed into a verson w/ Preset saves.
Then you want Custom to be created again, putting it at the very bottom of UMS.

Everyone prefers to play Custom saves than preset, it's proven 100%... look at ranked.
Everyone will start playing Custom again, but now it'll be in like 500th position.

[FONT=Sarcastica]You're right! that's so much closer to the top 10.[/FONT]

Yes I am reading what everyone is writing, and quoting it and responding, so I don't see why you try to tell people I dont. You can read all my responses above.

If you are saying that moving the modes around, when creating a map, will reset it's popularity, then sorry I did not know that, and don't know how I should have. I'm not a map developer.

That's sad.

Everyone will obviously always play the maps Default Mode (aka "Custom"), because it's the default choice.

People click -Mafia-, and then click play. I dare tell you that 95% of people do this without even noticing the Ranked mode. They are oblivious of this mode.

You CANNOT determine which of two modes are the most popular, if you give them unfair premises and judge their popularity based on how many choses one other the other, when one is selected by Default when you click Play.
If you are suggesting that, then you are dumb, but I hope you are not.


People like me know about the Ranked mode, because someone once told me about it. I hadn't noticed it beforehand.
I have 3 times been able to join a group and play ranked mode. It took a long time to finally get enough players, but we enjoy it and it was fun.

Why don't I play it more then? Because it takes ages to fill a game for it (and often is impossible), since people don't automatically join Ranked, and don't know it exists. It might be more fun, but what is more important for people is that the game fills up fast. It's more important for me too. I want to play as many games as I can in the time I have to play. I don't want to waste hours only to play a single Ranked game, when I could be playing Custom repeatedly, despite the setup failures and remakes you get now and then.

If doing major changes like I propose, to increase -Mafia-'s appeal to mainsteam, will also put it down to 500th place, then yeah I guess we can't do that.

Then I guess we'll just have to sit and watch -Mafia- slowly fade away in popularity, until starting a game takes so painfully long that people abandon it all together OR someone comes along and develops a new Mafia game from scratch that is more streamlines and has some new twists and improved features/roles, that takes the win.

[Brodersen]

What you wish to be included into the game, in an effort to increase it's already fair popularity, would be something of a failed attempt as, unfortunately, it has already been attempted, and failed. The save mode, Ranked, was a call for pre-setup saves with the side incentive of points earned/lost each game, something that normally gives the mob of players a particularly enormous desire to play in the first place. Unfortunately this never took off into popularity due to the abysmal reality that it was of little interest to the targeted audience. Thus it would be a safe assumption to assume that your own suggested solution, which is really and truly only an excuse to complain and "debate", in some sense it would be argued an attempt to insult, among the poor few who have attempted to engage you with reason.

Oh boy.

You didn't make Ranked the default choice = nobody plays it, nobody knows it exists, nobody is told it exists, therefor no Ranked games are filled, and nobody can judge it's popularity because nobody joins it by default.

It's not the default setting = it CANT become the popular choice REGARDLESS of it being the most fun choice.

It is absolutely retarded to suggest that you can add an additional 'non-default' Mode and expect people to play it more than the default lobby they automatically join when they click the Play button.

No arcade map does this. No arcade map has a non-default mode that is more popular than the default mode you play when you click Play without fiddling with the Mode select.

This should be so obvious, the next person who suggests it has already been proven in Ranked and wasn't more popular than default Custom is a fucking joke or troll.

[Lazers]

How about DR actually adds new save types to the NORMAL mafia instead of sequestering them to Ranked?

Eh?

It's not like anyone would use them, but hey.

EDIT: Also, splitting up the two primary game modes actually would impact popularity and Mafia's place on the list. DR said himself that only one of the game modes contributes to popularity. Dividing people between them would push Mafia down the list. Won't work.

[Brodersen]

How about DR actually adds new save types to the NORMAL mafia instead of sequestering them to Ranked?

Eh?

It's not like anyone would use them, but hey.

Can I give you some respect points or kudos somehow?

Does DR have any stats on how many people actually play Classic or any of the other predefined setup suggestions that are presented to host?


— The top setup on the list should be one that has opportunity for all roles, and is as fairly balanced as possible.

— Players should be able to start a game after 10 seconds. We don't need to "take a time to familiarize ourselves with the rules" every time.

[Cryptonic]

Everyone will obviously always play the maps Default Mode (aka "Custom"), because it's the default choice.

This just isn't true. People play custom because they like playing their own custom saves. Even if Ranked was the default, everyone would play Custom still.

You CANNOT determine which of two modes are the most popular, if you give them unfair premises and judge their popularity based on how many choses one other the other, when one is selected by Default when you click Play.
If you are suggesting that, then you are dumb, but I hope you are not.

No..... because when Ranked came out, everyone flocked to it because it was new... then they all went back to Custom because they liked custom saves more....

Stop talking down to everybody, it makes you seem like a piece of shit.

[kyle1234513]

Let me put my two cents in here... Back in the past, Dark Revenant had plans to REINTRODUCE premade setups, with a shifting weekly setup featured by the community to boot. So it's not entirely out of question for him to still do such a thing.

if thats the case then zombie mode is a must!

imo we should have more standard included saves with more unique roles that arent addable to custom setups, in otherwords a prefixed game setup from the start cant customize it and is extremley fun. where clue, random, classic are

[Raptorblaze]

Oh boy.

You didn't make Ranked the default choice = nobody plays it, nobody knows it exists, nobody is told it exists, therefor no Ranked games are filled, and nobody can judge it's popularity because nobody joins it by default.

It's not the default setting = it CANT become the popular choice REGARDLESS of it being the most fun choice.

It is absolutely retarded to suggest that you can add an additional 'non-default' Mode and expect people to play it more than the default lobby they automatically join when they click the Play button.

No arcade map does this. No arcade map has a non-default mode that is more popular than the default mode you play when you click Play without fiddling with the Mode select.

This should be so obvious, the next person who suggests it has already been proven in Ranked and wasn't more popular than default Custom is a fucking joke or troll.

Ok let me get this straight... The only thing you are really asking for is for ranked but as the default mode instead of an alternate mode, and you think that ranked mode will somehow skyrocket in popularity even though it was extremely popular until people either a) liked custom more or b) realized playing on two different modes splits the popularity of the map as a whole as well which caused the map to take a divebomb and therefore have less players.

That's not anything new.....

[Brodersen]

This just isn't true. People play custom because they like playing their own custom saves. Even if Ranked was the default, everyone would play Custom still.

Now you are making stuff up. Your argument is simply not true, that people play Custom mainly because they want their save to be the one everyone should play.
No. Many people don't care or are oblivious, and just want to start a fair/balanced/fun setup (regardless of who hosts it) with most roles possible.
So much if fact that most are happy to give host to whoever can start such fair/balanced/fun setup. Nobody likes to wait in the setup phase, people want to play.



Most people play custom because it's the normal default game, and they clicked the Play button and this is what they get. Most people doesnt evaluate if they should play ranked or custom before they play. No they just click Play button.

Those few who know Ranked even exists, don't play Ranked because it wont start, and they don't want to waste time trying to introduce people to it and tell them to go into Ranked and wait. That's why it's dead. You need a group for it to work, and most people don't come in a big group of 10-15 people.
It was played a little when it was first introduced, but not much and it died quickly for reasons I already explained multiple times.


Go into a game and ask how many of them have tried Ranked. Ask how many even know it exists to begin with. Ask how many care...

Again, people just want to play, and star the damn thing already.

No..... because when Ranked came out, everyone flocked to it because it was new... then they all went back to Custom because they liked custom saves more....

Stop talking down to everybody, it makes you seem like a piece of shit.

It was being played more because it was new yes, but the default setup is, was and always will be the most played setup where games start fastest, and that applies to ALL Arcade maps that have multiple modes. Default is king. The increase in fun in Ranked doesn't make up for the slower game start of less people joining the lobby by default. That's why it failed.
...and because it had only 1 setup, I'm not suggesting only 1 setup, I'm suggesting a choice between a number of popular community setups, with many random slots.

I'm not insulting anyone, unless they try to put words into my mouth to make me sound wrong.

[Brodersen]

Here you go. Check the replay:

-Mafia- Typical game start fail.SC2Replay

[Raptorblaze]

I guess my position is that we should just have several premade setups as ready options (let's be honest though, no one actually plays classic mode) and then for people over 10k there should be a custom setup button they can hit when they are the host and TO HELL WITH MULTIPLE MODES BECAUSE IT WRECKS POPULARITY RATINGS.

[Raptorblaze]

Actually the fact that you are an EU player explains a lot about your arguments, since we have virtually none of those issues you've raised on NA. Have you tried switching to NA for awhile? You're fully capable without any additional cost now.

[ika]

Actually the fact that you are an EU player explains a lot about your arguments, since we have virtually none of those issues you've raised on NA. Have you tried switching to NA for awhile? You're fully capable without any additional cost now.

i think if he comes to na he might have to complain about all the trollages that goes on XD

[Doctective]

The problem here is that the game has sort-of been neglected... allowed to drop in popularity with non-issues being the "fixes."

If they did special setups, events and other things like that I think you'd see an increase in the playerbase. Someone could even try and talk to blizz to get an article on the custom or even some websites might do articles on it.

You never know until you try.

[Brodersen]

I guess my position is that we should just have several premade setups as ready options (let's be honest though, no one actually plays classic mode) and then for people over 10k there should be a custom setup button they can hit when they are the host and TO HELL WITH MULTIPLE MODES BECAUSE IT WRECKS POPULARITY RATINGS.

This is the best thing I've heard on this website ever.

Thanks for reading, understanding and responding

[Brodersen]

The problem here is that the game has sort-of been neglected... allowed to drop in popularity with non-issues being the "fixes."

If they did special setups, events and other things like that I think you'd see an increase in the playerbase. Someone could even try and talk to blizz to get an article on the custom or even some websites might do articles on it.

You never know until you try.

Yeah, but from what I've heard, making any changes or adding anything to the game at this point is impossible.

I've heard that the game code is so complex that nobody dare touch it, in fear of destroying it.

There are a few improvements that could be made here and there, to make the game more fun for mainstream (we already attracted all the "geek" I'm sure, (me included so no offence)). I'm sure, and I could write up a few I have in mind.

...Like adding a button for Last Will, with pre-text that explains its function better to newbies.

Small tweaks here and there to make the game more approachable, and maybe something to make "boring" roles more interesting, or expand on the achievement system to make replayability more addicting.

I was also thinking about changing Jailors or vigilantes so they would have unlimited executes EXCEPT if executing a town then they can't execute anymore. Things like that to motive newbies/trolls to not to execute carelessly d1. It was just an idea... ;)

[Brodersen]

Actually if I come to NA (though laggy as hell I imagine), then I expect there will be more -mafia- games played, and I will be less frustrated with the decrease in popularity.

[Doctective]

...Like adding a button for Last Will, with pre-text that explains its function better to newbies.

This is one of those non-issues.

[Mugy]

Since that you've now mentioned EU, the reason why EU dropped from 11th place and is now fluctuating between 20 and 100 is because when patch 2.0.4 was released, it broke the voting. Mafia fell to 122th place or something before voting got fixed. -Mafia- got fixed on NA in less than a day, EU took 3 or 4 days.
It hasn't climbed back up ever since.

Another thing, even if you implemented this and your concept worked, what's to say more people will play?
It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that the long setup contributes the most to making the game uninteresting to new comers. The majority of the problem is that -Mafia- isn't for everyone, some people simply dislike the fact you have to think outside the box to get an advantage over your enemies.
This isn't like normal sc2 where Marauders>stalkers therefore I see stalkers, I must build marauders. Some people like this style of game, others don't.