Escort = Ridiculously Underpowered?

[Auckmid]

I just started playing Mafia again last night. 14 players. For the anti-town roles, there was a GF + 2 Random Mafia + 1 SK. GF is immune to roleblockers + SK kills roleblockers. Escort could not detect people who are immune to getting RBed. Effectively, of the 4 anti-town roles, the Escort has no effect on one, while another one kills her if targeted. Effectively, the Escort can only disrupt the actions of 2 of the anti town players

...

Only joking! One of the random mafia's was a Consort, who is also immune to roleblocks! Leaving 1 anti town player for the Escort to RB without dying, plus 6 town PRs whose night actions can get messed up by the Escort! Also, the one Mafia who isn't immune to RBing is a Framer, so Escort has no way of knowing that its RBs are being effective.

..........................


Seeing the problem here? This was actually an extremely standard game. Game was balanced other then this, with all the expected default options being chosen.



Message of the story: I would like to repeal this change made to the Escort...

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...tion-Remove-it

Options are cool when used correctly. However, people are idiots, and this option has turned default. Escorts detecting people immune to RB causes the role to be fairly balanced. Being able to hunt for the GF was a big reason why Escort was balanced. However, Escorts who cannot detect RB immunities vary from somewhat UP to incredibly UP.

SC2 Mafia is unique because it relies on the fact that all Town roles are of similar strength. The only thing which the option does is mess up the balance by severely decreasing Escort power. This options was originally implemented as a "Why the fuck not?" sort of thing. However, since the option has turned default, and messes up with the balancing of the Escort, it is also messes up with the balancing of standard games. Please remove it.

[Mugy]

I fully agree with this, this either needs to be default on or needs to be forced on.

[Reemus]

that s the idea of Escort. He can tell if he cant block and if he gets killed LW finds SK(if killed by unlucky target.) Just like Consort. It is fine.

[Slaol]

Escort used to be the Power Role hunter.
It could detect Godfather for immunity, and it could die to Serial Killer naming the target in their LW, if used, the removal of the detection has severally weakened the Escort, yes. The problem with things like this option is that they exist with the theory that a host will decide how to use them differently, but they never do. So, 100 times out of 100, Godfather is built in and Escort can't do a thing about it.

The answer is a slight twist on our favorite saying- Mafiosos are important!
My save has no built in Mafia. Godfather can random, but vast majority of the time it is a Mafioso. I leave Godfather undetectable by Escort, but the low frequency of his spawning makes it so the Escort can, usually, block any Mafia role (Consort not immune to blocking), and still can hunt Neutral Evils.

People chose Godfather over Escort when they decided to allow the removal of the detection, the answer is to choose Mafioso over Godfather in your personal save.

The Escort option is one that should remain, but no game should be built to make any role useless. If a save has GF built in then Escort should detect him, if a save (like mine) has a rare occurrence of a Godfather then the option is fine.

Edit: It is ALL about building the save properly, which most people refuse to do.

[Auckmid]

Escort used to be the Power Role hunter.
It could detect Godfather for immunity, and it could die to Serial Killer naming the target in their LW, if used, the removal of the detection has severally weakened the Escort, yes. The problem with things like this option is that they exist with the theory that a host will decide how to use them differently, but they never do. So, 100 times out of 100, Godfather is built in and Escort can't do a thing about it.

The answer is a slight twist on our favorite saying- Mafiosos are important!
My save has no built in Mafia. Godfather can random, but vast majority of the time it is a Mafioso. I leave Godfather undetectable by Escort, but the low frequency of his spawning makes it so the Escort can, usually, block any Mafia role (Consort not immune to blocking), and still can hunt Neutral Evils.

People chose Godfather over Escort when they decided to allow the removal of the detection, the answer is to choose Mafioso over Godfather in your personal save.

The Escort option is one that should remain, but no game should be built to make any role useless. If a save has GF built in then Escort should detect him, if a save (like mine) has a rare occurrence of a Godfather then the option is fine.

Edit: It is ALL about building the save properly, which most people refuse to do.

You are correct. However, if you expect the general public to be smart, you're going to be disapointed everytime. While I normaly do agree that "Options are good", this particular option is getting abused way too much by becoming default, causing me to believe that removing it would be the only good solution.

[Slaol]

You are correct. However, if you expect the general public to be smart, you're going to be disapointed everytime. While I normaly do agree that "Options are good", this particular option is getting abused way too much by becoming default, causing me to believe that removing it would be the only good solution.

I am completely against the removal of the option. As much as I can dread the public to fail in their save building, we should not destroy the work of art that is Mafia for the people that aren't going to give it the same time as the people who appreciate the proper order of the game.

If we removed every role and option that pubs misuse we wouldn't have a game any more.

[Damus_Graves]

I disagree with the removal of this option.
I actually disagree with the fact that Escort can detect if someone is "Immune to Roleblocking" and instead should be informed that their efforts to roleblock someone was prevented.

Ways to prevent a roleblocking:
Jailed targets
Dead targets
Godfather target
Veteran target
Consort target

[Slaol]

I disagree with the removal of this option.
I actually disagree with the fact that Escort can detect if someone is "Immune to Roleblocking" and instead should be informed that their efforts to roleblock someone was prevented.

Ways to prevent a roleblocking:
Jailed targets
Dead targets
Godfather target
Veteran target
Consort target

This is a far superior option that should replace the current Escort option. It would allow potential information, without being such that people would turn it off 100% of the time. I would gladly turn this on in my own save, and mine is built for Godfather to be a wrecking machine.

Also-
Amnesiac
Coroner
Mayor
Citizen
Mason
Not acting Cultists

Plenty of possibilities for what 'Your roleblock was prevented', but not all will appear in a game, so some 3/4/5 will appear in each game. Most roles want to target about 3-5 enemy roles in each save.

[Auckmid]

I am completely against the removal of the option. As much as I can dread the public to fail in their save building, we should not destroy the work of art that is Mafia for the people that aren't going to give it the same time as the people who appreciate the proper order of the game.

Republican?

If we removed every role and option that pubs misuse we wouldn't have a game any more.

I've been playing Mafia every since it came out, approaching 2 years ago. This is the first time that I believe that an option is being so badly misused that it needs to be removed

[Auckmid]

I disagree with the removal of this option.
I actually disagree with the fact that Escort can detect if someone is "Immune to Roleblocking" and instead should be informed that their efforts to roleblock someone was prevented.

Ways to prevent a roleblocking:
Jailed targets
Dead targets
Godfather target
Veteran target
Consort target

If the escort RBs Veteran/Consort/Escort/(possibly?)Jailor, it also gets the "immune to RB" message. Jailed one is the only thing new.

[Damus_Graves]

My suggestion requires Veteran to be immune to roleblocking at all times.

[Auckmid]

My suggestion requires Veteran to be immune to roleblocking at all times.

?

Isn't it like that already?

[Damus_Graves]

?

Isn't it like that already?

I believe it is only immune on alerts atm

I actually didn't know about the other immune to RB targets in game.
Perhaps that should be advertised more?

[Auckmid]

I believe it is only immune on alerts atm

I might be wrong, but I don't think so...

[Slaol]

Republican?

I live in Texas, but no, actually. I am 1/1 in presidential elections.

I just have a high opinion of the game, and find the art and it's enjoyment by those that appreciate as such art to be more important than a single complaint. Also, Damus suggested a tweak on the idea that would be a better option, and/or make a better built in factor. I have many options that I should should be removed. But I would never petition them. The game is an art, and art needs interpretation. The more options the game has the better it is as a whole, and the more possibilities. Sure trolls and pubs exist, but we should tweak things to keep the art, not bend the game to the whim of those that misuse it.
Survivor- 4 vests = full game invulnerability 99/100
Sheriff- 'detect Mafia' = can only be changed for a troll save
Godfather- 'can kill without mafioso' = can only be changed for a troll save
Blackmailer- 'victim can talk on trial' = mostly negates the role
Mayor/BG- 'can not be healed' = No.
Serial Killer- 'wins ties over Arsonist' = this has no more place since Mass Murderer has joined the tie breaker queue
Mass Murderer- the entire role = awful
just to name a few.

Edit: VETERAN IS ALWAYS IMMUNE TO ROLE BLOCKING!

[Auckmid]

I just have a high opinion of the game, and find the art and it's enjoyment by those that appreciate as such art to be more important than a single complaint. Also, Damus suggested a tweak on the idea that would be a better option, and/or make a better built in factor. I have many options that I should should be removed. But I would never petition them. The game is an art, and art needs interpretation. The more options the game has the better it is as a whole, and the more possibilities. Sure trolls and pubs exist, but we should tweak things to keep the art, not bend the game to the whim of those that misuse it.

I have a feeling that our views are too different to make a breakthrough on each other. However, my radical view on the matter is that Mafia is a game. Games should be made to be as enjoyable as possible. If something is decreasing the enjoyment, it should be removed. A game is based on how good the sum of it's parts are. I believe that arguing against removing something which detracts from the game because "art is more important than a single complaint" is completely crazy, and beliveing that Mafia is "art" does not mean that you have a higher opinion then anyone else on the game. If I didn't care about the game, I wouldn't be visiting the website one and a half years later.

Survivor- 4 vests = full game invulnerability 99/100 (Not that common of a problem, plus, in my town, Survivours die if there is no one better to lynch)
Sheriff- 'detect Mafia' = can only be changed for a troll save (Few games where Sheriff should not be able to detect Mafia)
Godfather- 'can kill without mafioso' = can only be changed for a troll save (See above)
Blackmailer- 'victim can talk on trial' = mostly negates the role (Option very rarely selected)
Mayor/BG- 'can not be healed' = No. (Prevents the roles from being OP in certain setups)
Serial Killer- 'wins ties over Arsonist' = this has no more place since Mass Murderer has joined the tie breaker queue (For the most part, completely insignificant)
Mass Murderer- the entire role = awful (We're not talking about removing a role, we're talking about removing an abused option)
just to name a few.

Edit: VETERAN IS ALWAYS IMMUNE TO ROLE BLOCKING!

There are options which are generaly poor options. However, This option is different from all the options above because it is misused in almost all setups. All the options above are either very minor or rarely misused to that great of an extent.

[Slaol]

If something is decreasing the enjoyment, it should be removed.

Citizen.
Yes, the whole is a sum of it's parts. And the whole is a piece of art.

[Nick]

Shaddup.

Mafia is popular because it is not a thinking game.

You'll only make Mafia rating go down.

[RLVG]

TL;DR

Public players. They fuck up the game, one way or another.





My setup contains 2X Town Random, 2X Town Protective and the Escort are immune to RB / Detects RB Immune (GF & Consort) / Consort doesn't detect immune.

Most of the setup includes using your mind, but I removed it and made a new setup because everyone are too fucking stupid.

Escort: X is immune to roleblocking, he is the Godfather. (Trial) I'm the host and I know how the setup works, check Escort & GF rolecards. (Lynched)
Later the day, the GF was found innocent because he claimed veteran that were on alert. Enough players died to prove Doctors impossible, so I should've outright died.

... In fact, Other player as Spy:
Mafia visited X and Y, Z got killed by Neutral Killer and was Consort while Y got killed by Veteran. There's a random Mafia and GF left.
I'm X, and suspected to be mafia because a sheriff checked me (random / framed)... HOW THE FUCK?
If I were secondary mafia, it's impossible to visit self unless witched and I were the survivor. Janitors can visit other mafia yes, but not himself and doesn't visit unless target is dead.



Pubs are too stupid for setups with basic logic that has a balance of pro / con.

It's because of the pub that most roles are underpowered because none utilizes them at all, including making setups that doesn't make sence or is scum favoured. Why do pub play the game if they only win 20% of the time or less because of their lack of logic?
Doesn't help that 70% of players plays with the graveyard closed.



I'm consindering to quit SC2 Mafia untill we get global play so that I may at least play with the smart ones back in the american servers, since the game is too dead to have any ranked in EU.