Half of the community asking for alignment!

[MeisterNeo]

Recently all the time i play, people ask for my alignment... (espacially jailors) and that is basicly a Cheat:

Crime: Cheating
Cheating is using methods unintended by the game (such as abusing Skype, lag screen, or forcing players to read their role cards) to gain an unfair advantage over other players.
Severity: High


I really have this in every single game and i don't plan to report hundreds of players for this... and I think people use this as a "tactic", while they have no idea that it really is a forbidden action.


So will it perhaps be possible to make this clear by using a loading screen message?

In 1 of the last games I played as janitor pretending coroner and after jailor asked I said "power" instead of "support" and i was lynched afterward just because of me writing "power" (he explicitly noted this to the whole town). I wrote in my lw that meta-gaming is considered cheating and another player explained that further... at the end our mafia team lost, and the jailor guy said "I didn't know that!"



Long story short: Half of the community asks for alignment and think this is the ultimate "tactic" to use in this game. I would like the admins to make sure this changes, because otherwise this will either continue, or half of the community gets into the watchlist.

[Glip]

Being forced to claim a role is an integral part of many mafia games. It is not against the rules to ask someone what their role is.

In fact, (Don't quote me on this, this is just my guess, I don't know for sure) I believe the only reason that asking players to read their role cards was outlawed in the first place was because of the very short timescale of the SC2 Mafia game, in which some settings only allow people approximately 20 seconds to defend themselves. Many people can't type that well or that fast to successfully communicate their role card to the town within that time, and so often would get lynched simply because they can't type fast enough.

For future reference, you can find the role cards for all the roles (including whether they are "Basic/Advanced" or "Power/Support") inside the help tab located in the upper left corner of the screen during a game. You would do well to start memorizing which roles have which alignments so that you will be more able to lie your way out of the lynch in the future. Not only that, but it'll also help in determining which roles are possible in a game in which the roles list includes "Adv. Town" with the "Exclude Support Roles" option turned on. As I said before, it is not against the rules to ask someone to claim a role, and knowing which roles are possible in a game and what their alignment is will help you to make a much more plausible claim and hopefully, convince the town not to lynch you. That is part of what the Mafia game is all about.

Back in olden times when people used to ask others to read their role cards all the time, I loved it whenever they would ask me to read mine, and I was a scum role. Being a rather fast typist, I could claim some town role, look up the role card for that role in the help tab, and then type it out, all within enough time for the town to decide I must be innocent because I read the role card correctly and then I get away scot-free. This is one of the many disadvantages of asking someone to read their role card, and one of the many advantages of the help tab. Asking someone to read their role card is now pointless because now that role card can be fabricated just as easily as the role itself was, and the town wastes the precious lynch time trying to get that information out of you instead of more useful information such as who you targeted each night and why.

[Nick]

@Glip
Even if it is easily obtainable through help, cheating is cheating. Newbies will need time to find the answer, jailor will execute because newbie replied too slowly. Can't expect everyone to metagame.

@MeisterNeo
Perhaps putting a WARNING sign in the jailor's role card will help. Unsightly, but they can't say they are not aware of it. Need to lobby the moderators.

[CmG]

Is this on eu? Almost everyone asks for alignment there because sc2mafia is almost non moderated there. As long as it is not moderated, you should just remember some role cards to fake claim on the stand. People will insta believe you and you might live another day. Works for me almost 90% of the time.

[MeisterNeo]

@Glip:
I know that, but "power/support" has never really been important to me until now (i know if roles are adv. or basic, because that is important to finding liars who for example claim an advanced town role). But this is a clear example of "Meta-gaming". Sure you can find it in help, or memorize it, but this makes it harder for noobs that really try to get into the game (which is already hard enough) who don't know the roles very well yet.

@Nick:
Yes something like that may help. I recently just ignore the role cards in most roles or read it only once at beginning, because i have memorized most of the abilities etc. So this new kind of asking roles really annoys me (more than a jester does at night!)

@CmG:
Yes it is eu. What do you mean "not moderated"? So we are just left alone over here? So no help for us? that is pretty disappointing I hope this will change when patch 1.5 comes and updates become alive again.

[Gzz]

Or hope in some people who get mods power for disciplinate the out of controll situation

[EliteMarine]

Or hope in some people who get mods power for disciplinate the out of controll situation

I am sure the mods are doing everything they can. We will see who is breaking the rules when the 1.5 is released.

[Raptorblaze]

@Glip
Even if it is easily obtainable through help, cheating is cheating. Newbies will need time to find the answer, jailor will execute because newbie replied too slowly. Can't expect everyone to metagame.

@MeisterNeo
Perhaps putting a WARNING sign in the jailor's role card will help. Unsightly, but they can't say they are not aware of it. Need to lobby the moderators.

I'd be in favor of this addition, but it would still have to wait until 1.5|


Until then, report them. We will be issuing retroactive sentences on all the offenders who have reports piling up in our reports forum.

[MeisterNeo]

I asked in the Answer Hall, the answer was:

Forcing to read entire role cards is a no as in "You can perform an action every night that does X"

I also think attributes is a no (support/power).

From what I understand Alignment is a grey area we dont generally punish for because its fairly easy to make them up on the spot, but I'll have to get Ambient to answer this because he is our Adjudicator.

Well so I guess I still have to wait for the real "official" answer. I won't write any reports if at the end it is just a "grey area" and all reports were pointless.

[cookies4you]

Asking for an alignment isn't cheating, anybody can easily come up with one.

Asking for a role-card, however, is different.

Unless you're like me, and you have excellent memory, most people won't be able to recall every single role in Mafia.

[cookies4you]

hi, ambient here. it is perfectly legal.

Archangel... Is that you?

[Duzero]

hi, ambient here. it is perfectly legal.

Stop right there, what is your role and alignment?

[creedkingsx]

hi, ambient here. it is perfectly legal.

Hi, Archangel.

[MeisterNeo]

So Meta-gaming is officially allowed now? that would be too funny... But I don't believe it as long as it was not said in my thread in the answer hall.

[stanoly]

Guys, 70% of the jailers don't even know all the alignments.... its funny cause 1/2 of the times jailers visit me i just say a wrong alignment and they still let me live xD

[Cryptonic]

One time, i was in a game, and d1 i was being an obvious vet
i was like "Who's sheriff, i'm doctor, I can save u bro"
and then I was jailed, and he executed me
and the jailor was also killed at night and his last will way like "LOL KILLED THAT NOOB DOCTOR"

[Lysergic]

So Meta-gaming is officially allowed now? that would be too funny... But I don't believe it as long as it was not said in my thread in the answer hall.

"Meta gaming" has never been banned (except one time in FM, and it didn't work out well).

Asking for an alignment, however, is roughly the same as asking for a role card read, and that is considered cheating.

In fact, (Don't quote me on this, this is just my guess, I don't know for sure) I believe the only reason that asking players to read their role cards was outlawed in the first place was because of the very short timescale of the SC2 Mafia game, in which some settings only allow people approximately 20 seconds to defend themselves.

Nope. It is banned because the role cards are only included to help new players. Allowing experienced players to use them as a form of attack is unfair to newer players who haven't memorized all the role cards. It has nothing to do with the time scale and everything to do with the fact that it's incredibly unfair for inexperienced players.

[Glip]

Asking for an alignment, however, is roughly the same as asking for a role card read, and that is considered cheating.

In fact, (Don't quote me on this, this is just my guess, I don't know for sure) I believe the only reason that asking players to read their role cards was outlawed in the first place was because of the very short timescale of the SC2 Mafia game, in which some settings only allow people approximately 20 seconds to defend themselves.

Nope. It is banned because the role cards are only included to help new players. Allowing experienced players to use them as a form of attack is unfair to newer players who haven't memorized all the role cards. It has nothing to do with the time scale and everything to do with the fact that it's incredibly unfair for inexperienced players.

Bah, you went and quoted me, even though I told you not to. XD

Most competitive games that pit experienced players against newbies are incredibly unfair for the inexperienced players.
That's sort of like playing a game of DOTA but banning everyone from using any of their skills because the new player doesn't know what they do yet, or how to fight back.
Inexperienced players aren't supposed to play as well as experienced players; they don't have any experience, but they have the resources necessary to learn how to fight back.
The role cards are all given in the help menu. They can get caught off guard not knowing some alignments at first, take note of their mistakes, learn, and be ready for the next time.

However, I will concede that asking someone to recite their role card or state their alignments is against the spirit of the game. It's no fun and it's out of character to catch someone by asking "As a doctor, are you a power or a support role?" I don't know if asking these questions should be banned, but I can say that I would never use them and that I would look down upon those who did.

[Blazer]

Bah, you went and quoted me, even though I told you not to. XD

Most competitive games that pit experienced players against newbies are incredibly unfair for the inexperienced players.
That's sort of like playing a game of DOTA but banning everyone from using any of their skills because the new player doesn't know what they do yet, or how to fight back.
Inexperienced players aren't supposed to play as well as experienced players; they don't have any experience, but they have the resources necessary to learn how to fight back. The role cards are all given in the help menu. They can get caught off guard not knowing some alignments at first, take note of their mistakes, learn, and be ready for the next time.

However, I will concede that asking someone to recite their role card or state their alignments is against the spirit of the game. It's no fun and it's out of character to catch someone by asking "As a doctor, are you a power or a support role?" I don't if asking these questions should be banned, but I can say that I would never use them and that I would look down upon those who did.

Power?

I agree. It's "fair" but kinda "cheap" at the same time.

[Lysergic]

That's sort of like playing a game of DOTA but banning everyone from using any of their skills because the new player doesn't know what they do yet, or how to fight back.

It's more like playing World of Warcraft (or some other MMO) and banning high level players who sit in the tutorial area killing every new person who signs up.

[creedkingsx]

/thread

[Gingerape]

It's more like playing World of Warcraft (or some other MMO) and banning high level players who sit in the tutorial area killing every new person who signs up.

But you can't do that silly. Starting zones are PvP disabled :3

[Glip]

It's more like playing World of Warcraft (or some other MMO) and banning high level players who sit in the tutorial area killing every new person who signs up.

In your example, it is literally impossible for the newbies to fight back, ever. That isn't the case in Mafia. In Mafia, they simply don't have the knowledge to fight back. They don't lack the capability, and they aren't being barred from gaining the knowledge either.

[AppleyNO]

But you can't do that silly. Starting zones are PvP disabled :3

The 85's kill the quest givers and bait the level two's to hit them.
So what Blizzard did was put level 90 elite's in starting area's.

[creedkingsx]

In your example, it is literally impossible for the newbies to fight back, ever. That isn't the case in Mafia. In Mafia, they simply don't have the knowledge to fight back. They don't lack the capability, and they aren't being barred from gaining the knowledge either.

in Mafia, knowledge is capacity. Asking a newbie to quote the second to last word of the second line of their role card is impossible to be expected.

[Blazer]

The 85's kill the quest givers and bait the level two's to hit them.
So what Blizzard did was put level 90 elite's in starting area's.

Nerd. BROTHER!

[MeisterNeo]

So I heard this only happens in EU servers... and is very rare in NA servers? Something about that EU servers are not moderated?

But that would also prove that it is forbidden... otherwise it would NOT just be in EU.

[Glip]

in Mafia, knowledge is capacity. Asking a newbie to quote the second to last word of the second line of their role card is impossible to be expected.

I'm not saying that it is to be expected. It isn't. Just as it is impossible to be expected that a newbie at DOTA would know to deny creeps, get last hits, and buy items in the right order of the right recipes to combine into the best items.

All I'm saying is that while I agree that asking someone to read their alignment is something that should not be done, I'm not sure if it should be a bannable offense to do so.

[Lysergic]

In your example, it is literally impossible for the newbies to fight back, ever. That isn't the case in Mafia. In Mafia, they simply don't have the knowledge to fight back. They don't lack the capability, and they aren't being barred from gaining the knowledge either.

That's why it's a metaphor. In my example, the newbies lack "experience" in the game (e.g. levels, good equipment, etc.). In Mafia, new players lack "experience" (as in the knowledge of how to lie effectively) and cannot get around being forced to read a role card.

Beyond that, this thread is not about whether or not role card reading should be illegal. Role card reading is not allowed. Period.

This is about whether or not asking for an alignment is the same as asking for a role card, and whether there should be an update to point out that this is also against the rules.

I'm not saying that it is to be expected. It isn't. Just as it is impossible to be expected that a newbie at DOTA would know to deny creeps, get last hits, and buy items in the right order of the right recipes to combine into the best items.

All I'm saying is that while I agree that asking someone to read their alignment is something that should not be done, I'm not sure if it should be a bannable offense to do so.

So, what, it should just be "frowned upon" to cheat by asking for alignment, but bannable to cheat by asking for role card reading?

"Don't do this, but you won't get in trouble if you do."

Not an effective rule.

[Glip]

That's why it's a metaphor. In my example, the newbies lack "experience" in the game (e.g. levels, good equipment, etc.). In Mafia, new players lack "experience" (as in the knowledge of how to lie effectively) and cannot get around being forced to read a role card.

In your example, it is impossible for the newbies ever to gain the "experience" necessary to combat the experienced players, as they are being barred from doing so by being infinitely spawn-killed before they can do anything.
That is not the case in Mafia. They are not being barred from reading the role cards in the help menu. They have access to all the information necessary, and have the capability to gain the "experience" needed to lie effectively.

Beyond that, I'll just agree that asking for alignment is akin to asking for role card reading, and if role card reading is to be banned, then so should asking for alignment be banned.

[Lysergic]

In your example,

That's why it's a metaphor.

[Raptorblaze]

Asking for their alignment (town/neutral/mafia) is allowed, anything beyond that such as if they are advanced/basic or power/support etc or reading specific parts of their role cards is banned. That's the standard I've been using for reports for a long time. There was an entire thread on the subject a few months back.

/thread

[LeaD]

newbies should stfu and click the fucking help button first time they play or read a damn FAQ on the wiki
every game should be played only if you've read the instructions prior (or went through a tutorial)

[Ambient]

Answered.