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[QUOTE=Quick;660176]I was thinking about this last night in bed. In this game, Scum hunting in the traditional sense is not even optimal since everyone is subject to change alignment. It lends itself to playing much more defensively and thinking about playing the game as both Town and Scum.[/QUOTE]
Since only two people, at most, will be converted, optimal town play to make things as best as you can for town. If you lynch cult, then you're on the road to victory, and if you get converted then you will have hopefully established yourself as a town leader who can then lead cult to victory.

Only 25% of the town, at most, is getting converted. If you're optimizing how to win as cult, you're trying to win an unlikely victory.

Originally Posted by Quick

I was thinking about this last night in bed. In this game, Scum hunting in the traditional sense is not even optimal since everyone is subject to change alignment. It lends itself to playing much more defensively and thinking about playing the game as both Town and Scum.

Since only two people, at most, will be converted, optimal town play to make things as best as you can for town. If you lynch cult, then you're on the road to victory, and if you get converted then you will have hopefully established yourself as a town leader who can then lead cult to victory.

Only 25% of the town, at most, is getting converted. If you're optimizing how to win as cult, you're trying to win an unlikely victory.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;660063]Why doesn't Town just wait for everyone to be converted, then everyone wins.

I'd max it @ 4 conversion (living & dead), then that's half the Town.[/QUOTE]
Mandatory lynch, and game ends the moment cult could win. If you're town and don't lynch cult during the 4v3 LYLO, you just lose.

The cult is actually capped at 3 living+dead members by the mechanics.

(Cult can only be converted following a mislynch, so 4 members means there were 3 mislynches. But then the six remaining members have to be divided among cult+town. At least three of those have to be town, otherwise cult could have ended the game by converting after the third mislynch. And then that only leaves room for three cult)

Note that I've changed the cult wincon to "Control 50% of the vote, or make it so nothing can stop you from doing so." so that if they get down a 2v2 or 3v3 that game doesn't risk coming down to chance from town and cult lining up their votes.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

Why doesn't Town just wait for everyone to be converted, then everyone wins.

I'd max it @ 4 conversion (living & dead), then that's half the Town.

Mandatory lynch, and game ends the moment cult could win. If you're town and don't lynch cult during the 4v3 LYLO, you just lose.

The cult is actually capped at 3 living+dead members by the mechanics.

(Cult can only be converted following a mislynch, so 4 members means there were 3 mislynches. But then the six remaining members have to be divided among cult+town. At least three of those have to be town, otherwise cult could have ended the game by converting after the third mislynch. And then that only leaves room for three cult)

Note that I've changed the cult wincon to "Control 50% of the vote, or make it so nothing can stop you from doing so." so that if they get down a 2v2 or 3v3 that game doesn't risk coming down to chance from town and cult lining up their votes.

Having people vote on someone not being convertible doesn't work because then town can say the next day and have no reason to lie.

Town's main advantage in this setup is that they only have to lynch the cult leader and the game ends. Right now, the game is more or less a competition between "get three mislynches" and "lynch the Cult Leader." This seems to be roughly a fair competition. Two mislynches seems like quite too few, and four may be making town's life too easy.

But within the world of "three mislynches ends the game," the current setup is more cult-leaning, which may or may not be correct. I'm not opposed to adding another citizen, or perhaps changing one citizen so that it can't be converted. We're close to a good balance point; the question is what minor tweaks, if any, should be added.

Having people vote on someone not being convertible doesn't work because then town can say the next day and have no reason to lie.

Town's main advantage in this setup is that they only have to lynch the cult leader and the game ends. Right now, the game is more or less a competition between "get three mislynches" and "lynch the Cult Leader." This seems to be roughly a fair competition. Two mislynches seems like quite too few, and four may be making town's life too easy.

But within the world of "three mislynches ends the game," the current setup is more cult-leaning, which may or may not be correct. I'm not opposed to adding another citizen, or perhaps changing one citizen so that it can't be converted. We're close to a good balance point; the question is what minor tweaks, if any, should be added.

[MENTION=27821]PowersThatBe[/MENTION], I still don't see the point of your calculations, although you are missing the fact that the Cult Leader cannot convert if a cultist was lynched that day.

@PowersThatBe , I still don't see the point of your calculations, although you are missing the fact that the Cult Leader cannot convert if a cultist was lynched that day.

[QUOTE=Quick;660047]2 mislynch game.[/QUOTE]
Right, but even in a comparable situation, a 7 citizen vs 2 mafioso game, scum needs three mislynches to win. I have trouble making the game significantly more scumsided than 7v2 with no TPRs.

Originally Posted by Quick

2 mislynch game.

Right, but even in a comparable situation, a 7 citizen vs 2 mafioso game, scum needs three mislynches to win. I have trouble making the game significantly more scumsided than 7v2 with no TPRs.

I think the fact that I have people encouraging changing the balance in both directions is a good sign.
[MENTION=27821]PowersThatBe[/MENTION], I'm not really sure where your calculations are going.

I think the fact that I have people encouraging changing the balance in both directions is a good sign.
@PowersThatBe , I'm not really sure where your calculations are going.

[QUOTE=Quick;660042]I suggest dropping a Citizen, with the limited knowledge I have on cult games.[/QUOTE]
As it is, cult has to win a 4v3 LYLO on D3 for their fastest path to victory. (which frankly I've considered adding a cit to make it 5v3) With one less Cit, Cult only needs to not get lynched D1 or D2. That just feels way too easy.

Originally Posted by Quick

I suggest dropping a Citizen, with the limited knowledge I have on cult games.

As it is, cult has to win a 4v3 LYLO on D3 for their fastest path to victory. (which frankly I've considered adding a cit to make it 5v3) With one less Cit, Cult only needs to not get lynched D1 or D2. That just feels way too easy.

[QUOTE=Quick;660039][COLOR="#ADD8E6"][s]Concern: The soonest that Cult can win is 4 game days.[/s]

Its 3 days, but its not an even number.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Are you worried that is too soon or not soon enough?

Originally Posted by Quick

Concern: The soonest that Cult can win is 4 game days.

Its 3 days, but its not an even number.

Are you worried that is too soon or not soon enough?

[QUOTE=BananaCucho;660037]I give the cult a 72.392649%* chance of winning

*I totally didn't just pull this number out of my ass or anything[/QUOTE]
An interesting number of significant digits. Care to elaborate?

But to your concern, town really doesn't have an incentive to just screw around and hope for being converted. The Cult Leader is most likely going to go for the strongest and most townread players, so not taking your wincon seriously just increases your chances of losing as town.

Originally Posted by BananaCucho

I give the cult a 72.392649%* chance of winning

*I totally didn't just pull this number out of my ass or anything

An interesting number of significant digits. Care to elaborate?

But to your concern, town really doesn't have an incentive to just screw around and hope for being converted. The Cult Leader is most likely going to go for the strongest and most townread players, so not taking your wincon seriously just increases your chances of losing as town.

[QUOTE=BananaCucho;660034]Seems broken. Players will just lynch who they don't personally like and hope to be converted by cult.

There's no incentive to scum hunt here. There not even incentive to get a lynch off. Less lynches more culties.[/QUOTE]
Plurality lynch. A lynch will always happen.

Players who intentionally sabotage town with the hope of being converted to cult will be punished accordingly.

Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Seems broken. Players will just lynch who they don't personally like and hope to be converted by cult.

There's no incentive to scum hunt here. There not even incentive to get a lynch off. Less lynches more culties.

Plurality lynch. A lynch will always happen.

Players who intentionally sabotage town with the hope of being converted to cult will be punished accordingly.

[QUOTE=PowersThatBe;660030][COLOR="#00FF00"]Does the cult leader have unlimited conversions?

Does town ONLY need to lynch the cult leader, or do they have to kill the converts too? [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
The Cult Leader has an unlimited number of conversions.

Only the cult leader needs to be lynched for town to win.

Originally Posted by PowersThatBe

Does the cult leader have unlimited conversions?

Does town ONLY need to lynch the cult leader, or do they have to kill the converts too?

The Cult Leader has an unlimited number of conversions.

Only the cult leader needs to be lynched for town to win.

[CENTER][COLOR="#FFFFFF"][SIZE=6]Cult of [color="#8904B1"]Zed[/color][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[size=3][color="#FFFFFF"][9 Players][/color][/size]

[SIZE=4][COLOR="#FFFFFF"][u]Summary:[/u][/COLOR][/SIZE]
A cult game where the town wins when they lynch the cult leader.

[SIZE=4][COLOR="#FFFFFF"][U]Role List:[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[color="#8904B1"]Cult Leader Zed[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
[color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]

[COLOR="#FFFFFF"][SIZE=4][U]Rolecards:[/U][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[quote][color="#8904B1"]Cult Leader Zed[/color]
At night, you may [COLOR="#FFFFFF"]convert[/COLOR] someone to become a [color="#8904B1"]Cultist[/color].
You may not convert if a [color="#8904B1"]Cultist[/color] was lynched the previous day.
You share a night chat with your [color="#8904B1"]Cultists[/color]. (link)[/quote]
[quote][color="#8904B1"]Cultist[/color]
You have no special abilities.
You share a night chat with [color="#8904B1"]Cult Leader Zed[/color] and fellow [color="#8904B1"]Cultists[/color]. (link)[/quote]
[quote][color="#33CC33"]Citizen[/color]
You have no special abilities.[/quote]

[COLOR="#FFFFFF"][SIZE=4][U]Mechanics:[/U][/SIZE][/COLOR]
Days last 48 hours, or until someone is lynched with 51% of the votes.
If no one gets 51% of the votes, the player with the most votes will be lynched. (ties will be settled at random)
Nights are 24 hours.
[B][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]No Last Wills[/COLOR][/B]
Graveyard will reveal roles
Game begins on Day 1.

[SIZE=4][COLOR="#FFFFFF"][U]Win Conditions:[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[color="#8904B1"]Cultists[/color]: Control 50% of the vote, or make it so nothing can stop you from doing so.
[color="#33CC33"]Citizens[/color]: Lynch [color="#8904B1"]Cult Leader Zed[/color].

The game will end when a wincon is achieved.

[COLOR="#FFFFFF"][SIZE=4][U]Rules:[/U][/SIZE][/COLOR]
1. Inactives will be replaced or modkilled. Inactivity will be decided at my discretion.
2.[SIZE=3][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]No out-of-game communication.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
3. No editing or deleting posts.
4. No videos or links. (pictures OK, within reason)
5. No invisible text.
6. No quoting PM's.
7. English only.
8. No pretending to gamethrow.[/CENTER]

Cult of Zed
[9 Players]

Summary:
A cult game where the town wins when they lynch the cult leader.

Role List:
Cult Leader Zed
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Rolecards:

Cult Leader Zed
At night, you may convert someone to become a Cultist.
You may not convert if a Cultist was lynched the previous day.
You share a night chat with your Cultists. (link)

Cultist
You have no special abilities.
You share a night chat with Cult Leader Zed and fellow Cultists. (link)

Citizen
You have no special abilities.

Mechanics:
Days last 48 hours, or until someone is lynched with 51% of the votes.
If no one gets 51% of the votes, the player with the most votes will be lynched. (ties will be settled at random)
Nights are 24 hours.
No Last Wills
Graveyard will reveal roles
Game begins on Day 1.

Win Conditions:
Cultists: Control 50% of the vote, or make it so nothing can stop you from doing so.
Citizens: Lynch Cult Leader Zed.

The game will end when a wincon is achieved.

Rules:
1. Inactives will be replaced or modkilled. Inactivity will be decided at my discretion.
2.No out-of-game communication.
3. No editing or deleting posts.
4. No videos or links. (pictures OK, within reason)
5. No invisible text.
6. No quoting PM's.
7. English only.
8. No pretending to gamethrow.