S-FM: Rise of the Jester King (10P)

S-FM: Rise of the Jester King
10 Person save. Made by Mike and Aivion. ( This can be edited by Mike or Aivion)
This save is a basic VT save with one Neutral The JESTERKING

1 Jester King 9 VT

Living Players	Graveyard
Jester King Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town

There is no Night Scum chat. Will start game with a Day 1. Day phases are 48 hours, Night Phase lasts for 1 to two hours to alow host to setup, to give host time to set the next day up and get our messages to the new jester if any.

Normal rules

Spoiler : Rules :

Player rules:
Minimum Post 5 posts a Day/night
No OOG Talk
Do not edit or Delete Posts in game.
Have Fun. Keep OOG fighting out of game.
Respect the other players as you would have them respect you.

Number one Rule: BE ACTIVE

Spoiler : Town :

9 Vanilla Town’s
Action: None
Has the power of vote.

Win con: Lynch the Jester King (If game ends and 3 jesters are not lynched town auto wins.)

Spoiler : Jester King and Jesters :

1 Jester King
Action: Each night starting night 1 pick someone to turn into a jester ( you have only 3 charges)

Converted targets are notified they are a Jester the next day. Also who there king is.

Win con: Make 3 Jesters and get them lynched Do not die. If 3 jesters are lynched you win. If you do not lynch all 3 you lose.

0 Starting Jesters
Action: none
Wants to be lynched

As a newly made Jester you want to end it all. (Protect your King and get lynched)

You will know who is Jester king. You will not know who is jesters

You will not have any chat with your fellow Jester's or the King.

Win con: Get lynched and Do not allow your King to be lynched. If your King dies you lose even if you are lynched.

Since I helped with the game's creation, I call upon the almighty @Marshmallow Marshall to review this setup!

We are ready for review!

Aivion will be our host for this game.

Lord help us all lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blinkskater

Lord help us all lol

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Don't be like that :P

Imagine I am Jester King and everyone thinks im Town....

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Originally Posted by blinkskater

Lord help us all lol

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You die first then Distorted

Will review this when possible

I'll begin with some questions for clarification.

Can the ORIGINAL Jester King convert on N1?

What's the lynch type? (Majority, plurality, both, mandatory lynch or not)

I'd add "Play to your win condition at all times." to the rules.

Is playing in order to get converted, therefore turning the game into a confusing WIFOM fest, considered playing against your wincondition, by your setup's ideal?


Now, onto the setup's nature. It is experimental style (only one scum, which is a cultist, who has a "transfer vest" on D1, who transforms people into jesters) for sure.
The question here is : Is this setup playable, and is it enjoyable?
Being converted to a Jester is really sad. You become a Lover AND a Jester. Plus, if your King dies, you are inevitably penalized by your King's misplays, which obviously sucks. This is the case with all Lovers, but THREE lovers on the same person is a bit much.
The Jester King himself is also very difficult to play as, since only ONE bad jester can ruin your play, without being able to do anything about it.

In its current state, I do not consider this setup balanced, given the number of strong instability and sudden/player-undeserved difficulty elements.

this looks like Lady Gaga all over again

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

I'll begin with some questions for clarification.

Can the ORIGINAL Jester King convert on N1?

What's the lynch type? (Majority, plurality, both, mandatory lynch or not)

I'd add "Play to your win condition at all times." to the rules.

Is playing in order to get converted, therefore turning the game into a confusing WIFOM fest, considered playing against your wincondition, by your setup's ideal?


Now, onto the setup's nature. It is experimental style (only one scum, which is a cultist, who has a "transfer vest" on D1, who transforms people into jesters) for sure.
The question here is : Is this setup playable, and is it enjoyable?
Being converted to a Jester is really sad. You become a Lover AND a Jester. Plus, if your King dies, you are inevitably penalized by your King's misplays, which obviously sucks. This is the case with all Lovers, but THREE lovers on the same person is a bit much.
The Jester King himself is also very difficult to play as, since only ONE bad jester can ruin your play, without being able to do anything about it.

In its current state, I do not consider this setup balanced, given the number of strong instability and sudden/player-undeserved difficulty elements.

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Ok the night 1 the is a special concert. Let me explaine it. When roles are given out before the game starts.the jk will pick a person playing. To proxy. Now if the JK gets lynched D1 the proxy will become JK that night. No jester converted n1. Now if the proxy is lynch they are lynched as town. Wins with town only. No jester converted N1. Now if a VT is lynched day 1. The proxy will become a jester N1. Now that convert counts as one of the 3 converts. Also if the proxy becomes the new JK. They count as one of the 3 max converts. The rest of the nights. The jk just picks who is converted. With a Max if 3 converts.

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Originally Posted by Mike

Ok the night 1 the is a special concert. Let me explaine it. When roles are given out before the game starts.the jk will pick a person playing. To proxy. Now if the JK gets lynched D1 the proxy will become JK that night. No jester converted n1. Now if the proxy is lynch they are lynched as town. Wins with town only. No jester converted N1. Now if a VT is lynched day 1. The proxy will become a jester N1. Now that convert counts as one of the 3 converts. Also if the proxy becomes the new JK. They count as one of the 3 max converts. The rest of the nights. The jk just picks who is converted. With a Max if 3 converts.

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Mandatory lynch every night.

Also yes play to your win con. If a Player is playing to get turned into a jester and throwing for town will end in a mod kill. This setup is made to be a fun setup to read people not mechanics. The goal is for town to kill jk not become a jester. Any mod kill will counted as a loss. And if you get converted into jester don’t be mad. If you would be DONT PLAY. This is a game for skill.

Also MM yes this setup the fact of your jesters can screw you is ment to be in there. This is why the JK picks who are there jesters. This is not a LOW skill of player setup this setup it ment to be a challenge. One lottery anyone can setup. This is a setup of skill. So yes would require players to try. And anyone wanting to troll should not play.

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Originally Posted by Gandalfr

this looks like Lady Gaga all over again

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It is very similar, yes. Lady Gaga was hard for scum; this is even harder, and includes the dangerous Jester mechanic in a game where you must lynch a specific scum.

The main issue with this setup is that it does not reward scum hunting. On D1, JK is literally invulnerable, because of proxy. Although this gives a chance to scum, it also makes D1 scum hunting pretty bad, especially given the mandatory lynch (Which should be added in the setup, btw).
Plus, the Jester role is a dangerous one because obvious Jesters do not get lynched, and people acting normally don't either, OR get lynched for the wrong reasons. It means that good Jesters will act mildly scummy on purpose. And then comes in the WIFOM plays, which isn't scum hunting but rather guessing game, since intent is extremely hard to determine if a player, for example, is lurking while keeping up with the 5 posts/day.

TL;DR: A setup with a target to lynch, and tons of jesters, PLUS a cult mechanic (which messes with reads and scum hunting even more), on the top of a Multi-Lover mechanic, is extremely unstable, and does not reward scum hunting or reading players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

Ok the night 1 the is a special concert. Let me explaine it. When roles are given out before the game starts.the jk will pick a person playing. To proxy. Now if the JK gets lynched D1 the proxy will become JK that night. No jester converted n1. Now if the proxy is lynch they are lynched as town. Wins with town only. No jester converted N1. Now if a VT is lynched day 1. The proxy will become a jester N1. Now that convert counts as one of the 3 converts. Also if the proxy becomes the new JK. They count as one of the 3 max converts. The rest of the nights. The jk just picks who is converted. With a Max if 3 converts.

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Thank you for clarifying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

Also MM yes this setup the fact of your jesters can screw you is ment to be in there. This is why the JK picks who are there jesters. This is not a LOW skill of player setup this setup it ment to be a challenge. One lottery anyone can setup. This is a setup of skill. So yes would require players to try. And anyone wanting to troll should not play.

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See my post above. I have a more specific question, though: Which skill exactly is involved in finding who's faking scum and who's really scum, in a game where alignments and win conditions change drastically, and where people are trying to get lynched? This is not a trap question, I just want to know the mindset behind the setup.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

See my post above. I have a more specific question, though: Which skill exactly is involved in finding who's faking scum and who's really scum, in a game where alignments and win conditions change drastically, and where people are trying to get lynched? This is not a trap question, I just want to know the mindset behind the setup.

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You are correct but key is to find one person. And only 3 people will be changing. And the goal is not to lynch them. So in turn day one reads are important. Because you will know if a jk flip happens or not. The key is not to lynch the jesters but the jk. The one person town has to lynch to win role does not change nor does there alignment. If town is smart ie why I said this setup is made for players with skill. And learn to spot people who’s posibly become jesters and find the jester king.now keep in mind there is no penalty to town for lynching a jester other than if 3 jesters are lynched jk and jesters win. And town loses. Also the proxy mechanic if only to get the jk a fighting chance and game not to end day 1. Since game will start with no scum but the jk. This is winnable by town or scum. Remember the jesters will not know who are jesters eather. Only person who wil know who the jesters are will be the jk since he converted them. The jesters will be notified who there king is on converting. Since that is who they need to protect

hmm....... technically if someone's alignment changes you can read them for it. it's indeed more difficult to read scum if they don't have a team, as they have fewer reasons to act scummy, but it's not impossible.
honestly, the only problem I have with this setup right now is the Jester's immunity to lynch day one. that seems like it was included solely so that the setup wouldn't fail in one day, but honestly, that's on the scum. if anything, this setup should be pretty easy for the scum, especially on day one. don't see why you'd see it as being more difficult for scum

Edit: oh wait, the Scum need to get the jesters lynched.... hmm

yeah, I can see what MM was saying, although I would still not call this setup difficult for the scum; if anything it seems relatively easy.

also, note that as it stands rn, there is a chance that nobody will actually win, if a) the jesters don't get lynched and b) the jester king doesn't get lynched either; this is probably the most likely outcome, the Jester King will NOT be as scummy as his jesters, ever (at least not on a deeper analysis)

I would change the wincons a bit, this seems like a long-haul game, a scum potential strategy would be to lynch all the townies first, since the Jesters can literally lynch each other then, IF at least one town is still alive;

personally, I would deal with this by making the jester lynches instead either give the Jester King some benefits or have a negative impact on the town somehow; and just giving the Scum the default wincon of having the jester survive to the end of the game, with either all town dead or a tie

first thing I would do in such a setup as town is lynch all the nullreads and AFKs, they are surefire Jester targets, 100%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

You are correct but key is to find one person. And only 3 people will be changing. And the goal is not to lynch them. So in turn day one reads are important. Because you will know if a jk flip happens or not. The key is not to lynch the jesters but the jk. The one person town has to lynch to win role does not change nor does there alignment. If town is smart ie why I said this setup is made for players with skill. And learn to spot people who’s posibly become jesters and find the jester king.now keep in mind there is no penalty to town for lynching a jester other than if 3 jesters are lynched jk and jesters win. And town loses. Also the proxy mechanic if only to get the jk a fighting chance and game not to end day 1. Since game will start with no scum but the jk. This is winnable by town or scum. Remember the jesters will not know who are jesters eather. Only person who wil know who the jesters are will be the jk since he converted them. The jesters will be notified who there king is on converting. Since that is who they need to protect

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yeah but if anything the Jester King is very well insulated, he has the added benefit of not actually caring about his team, other than wanting to get them lynched
and if someone acts sufficiently scummy, they could easily push them
I would call this setup difficult for both sides maybe, but more difficult for the town
tbh the Jester King himself ideally doesn't have to do anything, only the Jesters need to act decently scummy, since they're kind of Jesters already

EDIT: The Jester King also gets scummier and scummier as the game progresses, just like the Jesters do, so technically he could play it off as being a Jester
nah, Jester King would likely not get himself lynched, d1 there is zero reason for the Jester King to act scummy (he would still act scummy but not as scummy as a scum that has a teammate, )
but you should remove the Jester King's lynch immunity, makes the setup too difficult and basically doesn't reward scumhunting on d1

I would maybe give scum a night chat, but it's not something that would significantly impact the setup, it would make the scum either more difficult or easier to spot, depending on their playstyle and their skill

I would also make this a nightless setup if you don't give the scum a night chat
btw, off-topic, but this looks a lot like a setup the core group of players (naz, me, efe, Distorted, MM, etc) have played before... personally I wouldn't mind playing something like that again, but I doubt MM, Distorted or naz would lol (naz doesn't play cult setups on principle)

I 100% agree with Mag's suggestions of adding a night chat/making it nightless with a minimal time for JK convert. 12 hours should be enough to avoid timezone-fishing. I also 100% agree with D1 immunity not rewarding scum hunting enough.

The loophole, though, doesn't actually exist : if every town is lynched, the game will end in a draw-ish status : the JK and the Jester will be the last players standing, majority at that point being 51% of 2, which is a rounded up 2. The Jester King will not have gotten all of his Jesters lynched, but will have survived, so it's a draw in my opinion; this should be changed to a Scum loss to avoid some weird scenario where scum intentionally throw a draw like this, because it's not really the fun of the game.

Also notice the 1 night cooldown between convert charges. It means that the Jester King has to survive a MINIMUM of 7 days, assuming they play perfectly, along with their Jesters. That's extremely hard, and since lynch is mandatory, it forces the game to narrowing the lynch pool more and more, until it's the final 3, where the Jester, the Jester King, and the Townie are fighting. In such a long game without nightkills, it's basically giving town the game on a silver platter, because the Townie just has to analyze play and changes, given that they KNOW who is scum. Of course, it's not impossible for them to fail, but it's really not that hard if they have some skills.

To sum it up, it's extremely hard for scum to win this (or, if you prefer, it is imbalanced, and imbalanced isn't fun and doesn't require the same high level of skill for everyone, which was praised here), because of having to survive 7 days as a triple executioner, who converts people, while these people may screw you.


As for the off-topic, I would replay Lady Gaga setup, personally. It was fun and quite balanced. Thanks for your input, Mag!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

I 100% agree with Mag's suggestions of adding a night chat/making it nightless with a minimal time for JK convert. 12 hours should be enough to avoid timezone-fishing. I also 100% agree with D1 immunity not rewarding scum hunting enough.

The loophole, though, doesn't actually exist : if every town is lynched, the game will end in a draw-ish status : the JK and the Jester will be the last players standing, majority at that point being 51% of 2, which is a rounded up 2. The Jester King will not have gotten all of his Jesters lynched, but will have survived, so it's a draw in my opinion; this should be changed to a Scum loss to avoid some weird scenario where scum intentionally throw a draw like this, because it's not really the fun of the game.

Also notice the 1 night cooldown between convert charges. It means that the Jester King has to survive a MINIMUM of 7 days, assuming they play perfectly, along with their Jesters. That's extremely hard, and since lynch is mandatory, it forces the game to narrowing the lynch pool more and more, until it's the final 3, where the Jester, the Jester King, and the Townie are fighting. In such a long game without nightkills, it's basically giving town the game on a silver platter, because the Townie just has to analyze play and changes, given that they KNOW who is scum. Of course, it's not impossible for them to fail, but it's really not that hard if they have some skills.

To sum it up, it's extremely hard for scum to win this (or, if you prefer, it is imbalanced, and imbalanced isn't fun and doesn't require the same high level of skill for everyone, which was praised here), because of having to survive 7 days as a triple executioner, who converts people, while these people may screw you.


As for the off-topic, I would replay Lady Gaga setup, personally. It was fun and quite balanced. Thanks for your input, Mag!

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np
yeah... I'd say surviving or even playing the same game for 60*7=420 hours is not very enjoyable LOL, and is probably difficult to do as well

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Originally Posted by Ganelon

np
yeah... I'd say surviving or even playing the same game for 60*7=420 hours is not very enjoyable LOL, and is probably difficult to do as well

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I forget that most of you have never played a major FM before

How does it look now?

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Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16

I forget that most of you have never played a major FM before

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LoL 😂 love this

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

I 100% agree with Mag's suggestions of adding a night chat/making it nightless with a minimal time for JK convert. 12 hours should be enough to avoid timezone-fishing. I also 100% agree with D1 immunity not rewarding scum hunting enough.

The loophole, though, doesn't actually exist : if every town is lynched, the game will end in a draw-ish status : the JK and the Jester will be the last players standing, majority at that point being 51% of 2, which is a rounded up 2. The Jester King will not have gotten all of his Jesters lynched, but will have survived, so it's a draw in my opinion; this should be changed to a Scum loss to avoid some weird scenario where scum intentionally throw a draw like this, because it's not really the fun of the game.

Also notice the 1 night cooldown between convert charges. It means that the Jester King has to survive a MINIMUM of 7 days, assuming they play perfectly, along with their Jesters. That's extremely hard, and since lynch is mandatory, it forces the game to narrowing the lynch pool more and more, until it's the final 3, where the Jester, the Jester King, and the Townie are fighting. In such a long game without nightkills, it's basically giving town the game on a silver platter, because the Townie just has to analyze play and changes, given that they KNOW who is scum. Of course, it's not impossible for them to fail, but it's really not that hard if they have some skills.

To sum it up, it's extremely hard for scum to win this (or, if you prefer, it is imbalanced, and imbalanced isn't fun and doesn't require the same high level of skill for everyone, which was praised here), because of having to survive 7 days as a triple executioner, who converts people, while these people may screw you.


As for the off-topic, I would replay Lady Gaga setup, personally. It was fun and quite balanced. Thanks for your input, Mag!

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The one day wait was ment to be removed. That was an oversite. It has been removed. It was put in there with other mechanics we decided not to use.

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Originally Posted by Mike

LoL 😂 love this

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Seriously. I was alive for almost a month in the fallen kingdom FM

Stealth is right as an absolute; however, it's another thing in a 10P setup :P


The setup is a bit better now, but really, the very idea of the setup is flawed IMO, after analysis. I cannot approve this, sorry.