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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gyrlander
I found all effort that I could have given pointless.
@Gyrlander
Your attitude pisses me off so much. If you'd dropped some genuine AF stream of consciousness explaining your play it definitely would have undone my scumread. My scumread was a direct effect of how little effort you put into expressing your thoughts / feelings when you took certain actions.
There are players in this community who have to put a shittonne of effort and botched attempts into learning to express themselves properly, and still struggle. You lying down after never actually trying and declaring "any effort to express myself is pointless" is an insult to the people who actually try to improve. Your day 3 play was the definition of trash and you should feel bad / reflect on what you did wrong. You did not earn that AtE, it just made you look entitled AF.
Seriously man:
1) Keep a notepad beside you while you play.
2) When a certain post gives you a certain feeling, stop and start scribbling down your current feelings in the notepad. Do this by:
2a) Focusing on holding onto the images / feelings that were evoked by the post, and what part of the post gave you those feelings.
2b) Make sure you focus on scribbling down all of these feelings, preferably in a scarce format ("line 3 felt scummy. Other game comes to mind, when a scum did action X.", "post feels out of place in context of other posts. Contradiction somewhere maybe." exc.)
2c) Then focus on rationalizing / converting those feelings into a more rigorous argument. ("If he said line 3 as town, hypothesis A makes the most sense, if he said line 3 as scum, hypothesis B makes the most sense. But B sounds more plausible than A, therefore I scumread line 3")
2d) If you cannot put the feelings in the form of a rigorous argument, then consider whether the feelings are a genuine scumread or the human brain's stupid bias fucking with you.
3) When it comes to explaining your thought process, refer back to the notepad for inspiration. Do not embellish the explanation of your thought process with snark / fancyness unless it serves a specific, clear psychological purpose, that you can explain later if you're questioned about it.
I expected more from my Ice Baneling Escape partner :(.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
My reads were so shit this game. They weren't simply inexplicably wrong - they could have been a lot better if I didn't screw up.
I held my townreads to different standards because I lacked the motivation to rigorously lay out each of my reads. I never completed the reread of d2/d3 (and with a game this short I probably should have been rereading it twice). Exploring the FB read so deeply lost me precious time that could have been devoted to thinking about the other players, and I spent too long arguing / thinking about the day 2 conversion question - I didn't allocate my time well after day 1.
My motivation had a clear drop with each successive day. Inconsistent effort is something I've always struggled with in mafia. Waking up on a shit day and putting in as much effort as you did on a good day is an understated difficulty.
Anyway, Ika played really well, esp. wrt exploiting the day 1 rage. I only considered the scum advantage of his play in passing because I arrogantly assumed I understood his emotions better than he did heh (though that's often a necessary assumption to make if you want to get reads on some people >.<). Even if I was stepping up my reads, I probably still would have struggled to see through Ika.
Anyway, my final reads were:
Gyr converted scum
Cass convered scum
Quick Cult Leader
____________________________
Anyway, this game was really fun. Getting completely taken for a ride by scum is an oddly nice feeling. GGWP!
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
o i just realized gyrlander was voting ika in the end. i would have pushed yzb. im genuinely sorry guys, forgive me.
ika was definitely my top town read
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mesk514
o i just realized gyrlander was voting ika in the end. i would have pushed yzb. im genuinely sorry guys, forgive me.
ika was definitely my top town read
Mhmm. Ika was widely townread, and those who didn't townread him got converted.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cass
Haha yeah... I probably should've read the setup thread, and thought more on the setup ... >.<
(Not knowing setup is slack maybe
@
Stealthbomber16
btw, but it isn't inherently scummy!!)
I am aware.
What I meant when I posted that was that when you sign for a game you better have read the fucking setup. You should know at least know the roles that are in the setup, and know the basics of the setup. Not knowing there are no PRs in the setup is just a dick move.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firebringer
If I had been more active maybe day two would ended with a ika lynch.
I wasn't here enough to counter day end push by yzb because I was busy with exams.
Anyways gg to ika
Secondpassing I didn't scumread you but I didn't townread you and I figured getting rid of a null would be best.
Fire, you are soooo goood.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
I'll be more active near end of day on next game so this doesn't happen again but really five games in a row on here that I have been lynched it kind of discourages me from playing.
I know someone has to get lynched but kind of boring that I am on chopping block always it seems.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firebringer
Can't tell if serious
I just busting your chops, man.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quick
I just busting your chops, man.
yeah, i just felt it was completely unnecessary for you to bust my chops when I didn't play that bad.
but also saying i played amazing is also stupid.
So I was just sitting there going "why?"
I didn't see u converted at all, maybe it was the buddying.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattZed
GAME OVER. THE CULT HAS WON!
Congratulations to yzb25, Quick, and Cass!
Role list:
Stealthbomber16 - Town
Mesk514 - Town
ika - Town
Gyrlander - Town
Firebringer - Town
secondpassing - Town
yzb25 - Cult Leader Zed
Quick - Cultist (converted N1)
Cass - Cultist (converted N2)
gg everyone!
It was certainly an entertaining game to watch. As usual, comments on the setup going forward are always appreciated, as I will host this again in the future if you guys are interested. :)
Special shoutout to
@yzb25
for boldly choosing to convert the bottom of the player list. The mind game was real.
jk, ika was Cult Leader, and well played at that. Converting those who suspected him and getting them to not let up went a long way to making i
Comments on the set-up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
There is actually only an 11.11% chance of a random lynch catching the Cult Leader D1. Leaving an 88.89% chance of cult leader of surviving day 1.
There is a 12.5% chance of cult leader being lynched day 2. 87.5% chance of not being lynched.
There is a 14.28% chance of cult leader being lynched day 3. 85.71% chance of surviving.
There is a 16.66% chance of cult leader being lynched day 4. 83.33% chance of surviving.
There is a 20% chance of cult leader being lynched day 5. 80% chance of surviving.
There is a 25% chance of cult leader being lynched day 6. 75% chance surviving.
DAY 1:
9 players
51% of vote = 7
Or plurality
Cultist has ONE VOTE.
DAY 2
8 players (2 cult)
51% of the vote = 5 votes
or pluarlity
Cultist has TWO VOTES
DAY 3
7 players (3 cult)
51% of the vote =4
or plurality
Cultist controls 3 VOTES
DAY 4
6players (4 cult)
51% of the vote = 4
plurality does not apply
CULTIST CONTROL 4 VOTES
DAY 5
5 players (5 cult)
Game over.
Concern: Game would be completely over by day 5 if a single cultist was never killed. Given %'s earlier, and everyone just being a citizen, it would be almost impossible for town to win.
Solution: Add 1 mason. Cannot be converted. Kills cultists at night.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
Right now, if you think about it. Just by himself the cultist leader is 88% chance likely to not die day 1.
Day 2 he only drops a couple of % points, but gains a vote against, so actually his rate of survival increases, slightly.
1/9= 11% of the vote 7 votes to lynch [14.28%]
2/8= 25% of the vote 5 votes to lynch [40%]
3/7= 42% of the vote 4 votes to lynch [75%]
4/6= 66.66% of the vote 4 votes to lynch [100%]
the right side numbers are the %'s of cult to votes needed to lynch ratio. Starting at day 2 his votes is worth 25% of total player population and 40% of the votes needed to lynch. Day 3 he controls 42% of the population but 75% of the votes need to lynch. By day 4 he controls 66% of the population and 100% of the vote to lynch.
As you can see. If he successfully recruits every night and none of them die. He controls a large portion of the vote beginning at day 3.
Also, if you were to look at it this way.
Day 1 = 1/1 = 100% chance of losing game for cult. 1/9 = 11.11% controls 14% of vote though
Day 2 = 1/2 = 50% chance of losing game for cult. 2/8 = 25% controls 40% of the vote though
Day 3 = 1/3 = 33% chance of losing game for cult. 3/7 = 42% controls 75% of the vote though
Day 4 = no chance because they control the votes silly. HAHAHAHAHAHA
*These numbers represent if somehow town figured it down to 1 of the cult being the leader by magic.
So basically. You have upper 80% chance of not being lynched every day, then your vote controlled power increases exponentially each day.
So while the chances of town hitting a scum increase as the scum increases. The vote power is really what you should be paying attention to.
Let's assume town kills 1 scum a day: Minus day 1.
Day 1: 1/9 = 11.11% and 14% of the vote
Day 2: 2/8 = 25% and 40% of the vote
Day 3: 2/7 = 28% and 50% of the vote
Day 4: 2/6 = 33% and 50% of the vote
Day 5: 2/5 = 40% and 66.66% of the vote
Day 6: 2/4 = 50% and 66.66% of the vote
So even if they kill 1 scum a day starting day 2, without getting the cult leader. By day 6 cult still wins because they control a larger portion of the vote. Worst case scenario they come to a tie situation. in which case there is only a 25% chance the cult leader would be hit on day 6 by RNG.
What i comes down to ultimately is that this save really favors the lone scum.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
Word, I did forget about that.
The point is, there is a huge margin for cultists to run the table. Basically, you need something to make them not be able to run away with the game in my opinion.
Like the chances to even lynch 1 cultist is very low in comparison. You're more likely to ML than not. Especially if you convert the strongest town read.
You could have all the players pm you at EOD or night their strongest town read, and the player with the largest number of votes, that person is immune at night from being converted. No one will know who it is, and they wont know, only scum will know who it is because they failed to convert them. Since there's no town confirm roles, or invest roles, this just seems imbalanced in favor the scum
The calculations were to show you hard numbers, since there's been some questions about your saves not being balanced (no shade swear to god). Just feels like it's missing something to stop the cultists from taking over. Like it's good they cant convert if a cultist is hit, but they have 75% chance of not getting hit, especially if you pick the biggest town read to be converted. Then it gives scum even more chance to win imo.
oh and
@Gyrlander
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gyrlander
PTB there is scum hunting, you know. If you just think of town as random lynchers then of course yoi're going to get Bad results.
-- self-fulfilling prophecy much? :P
TL;DR:
@MattZed
you should add a mason that kills at night or some sort of method to stop another runaway game like this. Just my two cents.
or just go re-read my and quick's suggestions. https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...046#post660046
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
I think simply adding a vig would do wonders for this setup.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
-very outdated post
for someone who was leaving the site, its kinda funny your jsut requoting outdated stuff.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quick
I think simply adding a vig would do wonders for this setup.
i told matt to make it have max size of 3 for cult and end it there so it goes from lylo to mylo. or do it like the sc2 version where for every 2 dead cultist that a new one can be recuited
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
OK first FB-turning the lynch onto ika would not have been that easy considering yzb, Mesk, and Stealth were townreading him.
Second, it isn't just about the percentage chance of lynching CL or not. It comes down to the skill of the Town in being able to scumhunt and recognize others as Town, as well as cultists ability to look Town and not be lynched and cl ability to look Town and convert the right targets. You can't just go by random lynching numbers. Plus, plurality lynching makes it harder for cult.
The skill of town and cult should always be taken into account. It is more than just numbers.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
I agree cult should be limited to 3 and I do like that if a cultist is lynched, they can't convert. But considering at any time if cult leader dies its game over, that very much balances it out.
Edit-also cult has no nk which helps with balance as well
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
for someone who was leaving the site, its kinda funny your jsut requoting outdated stuff.
I am pointing out the the concerns I raised about this type of set up originally, and, how they came to fruition in the actual real time.
Ika, I've decided that I'll probably be back for now. Therapy is doing wonders on my attitude. =) ...I know you and SW are very disappointed, but I look forward to a few games with you both <3
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quick
I think simply adding a vig would do wonders for this setup.
Yeah, however, I think a good thematic choice would be like a mason that can kill only cultists at night and not the cult leader. Or like you said (perhaps unconvertable vigi) that can kill anyone.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
I'm on mafia hiatus PTB and don't plan on joining any games for awhile so you'll just have to play with ika.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
I am pointing out the the concerns I raised about this type of set up originally, and, how they came to fruition in the actual real time.
Ika, I've decided that I'll probably be back for now. Therapy is doing wonders on my attitude. =) ...I know you and SW are very disappointed, but I look forward to a few games with you both <3
im not dissapointed, im jsut amused that you requoted something without looking at how the actual game played out. your latter comment of "everyone picks top town read" would of ment that i (who was CL) or yzb would of been cult immune. if you read the actual game you would of realized that i recruited all people who were at probably best nulls and scum read me.
hard numbers does not really show a balance because it can not account for what is the human element of players. anyone could make a game that if runed though RNG number computer, it gets a tecnical 50%, that only makes it ballanced on the account that we remove all human elemnts of the game and do random lynching. when you add in the human element and stratagy that cult should be employing (recuiting people who scum read you) it makes a diffrent number point
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
OK first FB-turning the lynch onto ika would not have been that easy considering yzb, Mesk, and Stealth were townreading him.
Second, it isn't just about the percentage chance of lynching CL or not. It comes down to the skill of the Town in being able to scumhunt and recognize others as Town, as well as cultists ability to look Town and not be lynched and cl ability to look Town and convert the right targets. You can't just go by random lynching numbers. Plus, plurality lynching makes it harder for cult.
The skill of town and cult should always be taken into account. It is more than just numbers.
Yeah no.
Wouldn't be that hard.
He was AFK
Many people were Town reading me too.
So your pretty much wrong.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
OK first FB-turning the lynch onto ika would not have been that easy considering yzb, Mesk, and Stealth were townreading him.
Second, it isn't just about the percentage chance of lynching CL or not. It comes down to the skill of the Town in being able to scumhunt and recognize others as Town, as well as cultists ability to look Town and not be lynched and cl ability to look Town and convert the right targets. You can't just go by random lynching numbers. Plus, plurality lynching makes it harder for cult.
The skill of town and cult should always be taken into account. It is more than just numbers.
Sure, it is just more than numbers that is true. However, removing skill for a second, this was very heavily favored for the CL to win. Anyone of moderate skill could easily pull a win off in this type of set up because the chances of snowball are just too great to overcome. It relies on the right players getting lynched. Now, what IKA did was smart, he picked the people that were most critical of him because they couldn't vote against him now because that would be a game throw. So if anyone was critical of IKA with them, there is an inherent trust there, and now that inherent trust was used to mislynch other people.
Like I said in my original post, you just have to convert the most town leaning person, or in IKA's case, the people who were seen as your opposition, and the game is done and over with by day 3. In my opinion, I think that a set up that requires you to get the lynches correct every day without a TPR or something else is just impossible for town to overcome.
To clarify, i am not taking away from what IKA accomplished. I am sure he play masterfully. That is not in question. However, the validity of this set up being as fair as possible is in question because the game seems to have just been a runaway for the scum, which doesn't negate iKA's play, however, it does also show the weakness of the set-up because there was (by the numbers) an overwhelmingly strong chance that the cult was going to win.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Not saying it would be easy to lynch ika.
But my lynch did pretty much come down to "deadline"
And Grylander wanting to survive.
If i had time to do town leader it would have ended differently
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
my big issue with that was that if they dont his cult on day 2 they basicly get triple mylo/lylo if converts go off each night.
the situation is 3v4 on day 3, lynching cult makes it 2v4, if they lynch town cult gets a convert and wins
in the 2v4 and lynch cultist again, its 1v4 and that they still need to lynch correctly otherwise cult can convert and win.
while the info of who was a cult gets outed i feel like thats unfair for town to do a bascily "lynch correctly 3 times in a row"
All Town has to do is lynch CL and cult loses. Also they can't convert if a cultist is lynched. The more there are, the more likely they will get lynched. Especially with plurality.
My big point is, Town and cult both have to put some skill into the game. I prefer games were that is the case. I hate games that are solved by mechanics or bad play. When it requires true skill to play, that's when it is fun.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firebringer
Yeah no.
Wouldn't be that hard.
He was AFK
Many people were Town reading me too.
So your pretty much wrong.
No I'm not. Unlike you, even though you were in it, I paid attention to the game. Just saying Im wrong doesn't mean shit. It's real easy to say, when things are over, that something would of gone different. Stop being a sore loser.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
im not dissapointed, im jsut amused that you requoted something without looking at how the actual game played out. your latter comment of "everyone picks top town read" would of ment that i (who was CL) or yzb would of been cult immune. if you read the actual game you would of realized that i recruited all people who were at probably best nulls and scum read me.
hard numbers does not really show a balance because it can not account for what is the human element of players. anyone could make a game that if runed though RNG number computer, it gets a tecnical 50%, that only makes it ballanced on the account that we remove all human elemnts of the game and do random lynching. when you add in the human element and stratagy that cult should be employing (recuiting people who scum read you) it makes a diffrent number point
Sure you're right. I didn't look at the actual game. However, I saw that the game was over after day 3. There were still half the town left. To me, that seems like a failure on Mattzed. And sure, you picked null reads, I'm sure that's true. But the point is, you picked people who were probably not going to get lynched anyway. And with out a mason, invest, or some other town role, possibly conversion immune role, there was pretty much no chance they were going to find the right scum.
If you go and read the original work-shop thread again, Quick even says you cannot apply traditional scum hunting to this set up, and he's right. All you had to do as a player was to be seen as null or slightly town day 1, then convert most tow/vocal/biggest lynch threat to you, or some other combo as you did...and have that person start distracting while maintaining a distance between you. Of course you had night chat to literally plan everything out.
I mean for example, you gave cass instructions on what to do before he was even converted, because you knew there was no possible way he wouldn't be converted, because the set up makes it so you just have to get heat on someone else other than you. And after day 1 you had a stronger chance to do that.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firebringer
Not saying it would be easy to lynch ika.
But my lynch did pretty much come down to "deadline"
And Grylander wanting to survive.
If i had time to do town leader it would have ended differently
If I was green and made beeping noises, then you could say I was an alien.
You are sooooo good FB.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
I'm done on this thread. No more for me. No one wants to give credit to ika. Everyone just wants to say it's scum sided or they could of lynched him. Or that I'm just plain wrong.
/out
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
All Town has to do is lynch CL and cult loses. Also they can't convert if a cultist is lynched. The more there are, the more likely they will get lynched. Especially with plurality.
My big point is, Town and cult both have to put some skill into the game. I prefer games were that is the case. I hate games that are solved by mechanics or bad play. When it requires true skill to play, that's when it is fun.
But as the numbers show you, even the likelihood of any cultist being lynched was actually very low. All anyone had to do to win this was to not rock the boat too much, get null read at best, and let the town be eaten alive by paranoia. To me, the mechanics is what won this game. Also, IKA picking the right people to convert, but really only need 50% of the living players also did it in.
Just needs a mason or 1 role that cant be converted that can then use skill to try and solve the game.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
I'm done on this thread. No more for me. No one wants to give credit to ika. Everyone just wants to say it's scum sided or they could of lynched him. Or that I'm just plain wrong.
/out
I didn't say that at all. I actually said, I am not taking credit away from ika.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
But as the numbers show you, even the likelihood of any cultist being lynched was actually very low. All anyone had to do to win this was to not rock the boat too much, get null read at best, and let the town be eaten alive by paranoia. To me, the mechanics is what won this game. Also, IKA picking the right people to convert, but really only need 50% of the living players also did it in.
Just needs a mason or 1 role that cant be converted that can then use skill to try and solve the game.
Players should not have to rely on roles to win though, in mafia people should be able to find the cult leader off scum hunting. like i said, the numbers only show what happens in RNG type format.
Every game should never have to rely on their PRs or anything of the sort to have a win. They should be able to rely on themselfs to convince the other towns to lynch the right person. If one needs a PR to win the game they are no playing it proper IMO.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
I'm done on this thread. No more for me. No one wants to give credit to ika. Everyone just wants to say it's scum sided or they could of lynched him. Or that I'm just plain wrong.
/out
Don't play mafia to feed ego.
You play for fun.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
Players should not have to rely on roles to win though, in mafia people should be able to find the cult leader off scum hunting. like i said, the numbers only show what happens in RNG type format.
Every game should never have to rely on their PRs or anything of the sort to have a win. They should be able to rely on themselfs to convince the other towns to lynch the right person. If one needs a PR to win the game they are no playing it proper IMO.
A TPR is just one possible solution. Like you and others have said, conversion cap, or possibly raise the threshold to win to a slightly higher %. Perhaps he could have made it so everyone is forced to vote the most town player (like I said before) then another strat from that would be for the CL to convert the person who was buddying that person or something, or could have made it so cult could only convert on even or odd number nights. Or every other night. Or some sort of balance that still requires players to play well to win, but also makes it so the cult has to play well to win as well.
I'm not saying you didn't play well, but this set up was pretty much idiot proof for the cult to win. I'm sorry, it's just true.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Ika did well day one though.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PowersThatBe
A TPR is just one possible solution. Like you and others have said, conversion cap, or possibly raise the threshold to win to a slightly higher %. Perhaps he could have made it so everyone is forced to vote the most town player (like I said before) then another strat from that would be for the CL to convert the person who was buddying that person or something, or could have made it so cult could only convert on even or odd number nights. Or every other night. Or some sort of balance that still requires players to play well to win, but also makes it so the cult has to play well to win as well.
I'm not saying you didn't play well, but this set up was pretty much idiot proof for the cult to win. I'm sorry, it's just true.
Mafia at its core vaule is about scum hunting and finding scum. while i get what you are aiming at, it does not change the central fact of what mafia is about.
If anything hitting a cultist and not the CL day 2 would of been jsut as good as hitting the CL to an extent due to the fact that there is a wealth of info given out by it. what happned in this game though is that everyone didnt reevaluate and just kinda stuck with their intal reads. Thats the element of human that came into play that favored me.
All mafia games are ment to be won by scum if everyone is to play in a rational objective format due to the fact that scum(s) will always have the info and superiority to town. When we add in human traits and human play and it gets thrown up into the air.
its not about me playing well or anything, its more about the principle of what mafia is about: scum hunting
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yzb25
@
Gyrlander
Your attitude pisses me off so much. If you'd dropped some genuine AF stream of consciousness explaining your play it definitely would have undone my scumread. My scumread was a direct effect of how little effort you put into expressing your thoughts / feelings when you took certain actions.
There are players in this community who have to put a shittonne of effort and botched attempts into learning to express themselves properly, and still struggle. You lying down after never actually trying and declaring "any effort to express myself is pointless" is an insult to the people who actually try to improve. Your day 3 play was the definition of trash and you should feel bad / reflect on what you did wrong. You did not earn that AtE, it just made you look entitled AF.
Seriously man:
1) Keep a notepad beside you while you play.
2) When a certain post gives you a certain feeling, stop and start scribbling down your current feelings in the notepad. Do this by:
2a) Focusing on holding onto the images / feelings that were evoked by the post, and what part of the post gave you those feelings.
2b) Make sure you focus on scribbling down
all of these feelings, preferably in a scarce format ("line 3 felt scummy. Other game comes to mind, when a scum did action X.", "post feels out of place in context of other posts. Contradiction somewhere maybe." exc.)
2c) Then focus on rationalizing / converting those feelings into a more rigorous argument. ("If he said line 3 as town, hypothesis A makes the most sense, if he said line 3 as scum, hypothesis B makes the most sense. But B sounds more plausible than A, therefore I scumread line 3")
2d) If you cannot put the feelings in the form of a rigorous argument, then consider whether the feelings are a genuine scumread or the human brain's stupid bias fucking with you.
3) When it comes to explaining your thought process, refer back to the notepad for inspiration. Do not embellish the explanation of your thought process with snark / fancyness unless it serves a specific, clear psychological purpose, that you can explain later if you're questioned about it.
I expected more from my Ice Baneling Escape partner :(.
When you're alone and literally everyone wants to Lynch you, you fall into despair and just desperately try to do whatever you seem reasonable.
Or I was just a Bitch, who knows. However, this being cultist sabe had a major influence and won't happen again *kukuku*
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
Mafia at its core vaule is about scum hunting and finding scum. while i get what you are aiming at, it does not change the central fact of what mafia is about.
If anything hitting a cultist and not the CL day 2 would of been jsut as good as hitting the CL to an extent due to the fact that there is a wealth of info given out by it. what happned in this game though is that everyone didnt reevaluate and just kinda stuck with their intal reads. Thats the element of human that came into play that favored me.
All mafia games are ment to be won by scum if everyone is to play in a rational objective format due to the fact that scum(s) will always have the info and superiority to town. When we add in human traits and human play and it gets thrown up into the air.
its not about me playing well or anything, its more about the principle of what mafia is about: scum hunting
I agree, and I see your point. However, it was impossible for the town to scum hunt other than pushing for votes. There has to be some sort of factor that helps the town solve the game. Pushing lynches as the sole means of winning is not going to benefit the town. Scum will always have the advantage in those situations. Personal bias will always have a play there.
I just think in this situation the town was not capable to even scum hunt in anyway because the set up lends itself to you laying low day one, and if you get into trouble bus your cultists, use the night to confer with strat moving forward with other cultists (if you have any) and then try to use post flip associations and flip them in a way that gets someone else lynched outside of your circle lynched, and then you convert again and pad your army. I'm sure that's what matt had intended this to be.
However, in this set up, you have it so that if the town makes one or two errors in a 9 person game they are completely screwed. That to me just doesn't seem balanced. Yes, the goal is to scum hunt, and I in no way said that you shouldn't be scum hunting or that isn't the focus, however, this set up is broken in its current form.
Matt asked for comments on how to improve it, and I went back and pulled the quotes. Yes they had numbers, but in some of the colored text, I had other specific ideas on how to make this more balanced.
I get why you and SW are pushing against anything that would be seen as opposition to your win, I do get that. However, objectively, you have to admit....And you did actually admit at one point, that this set up needs something to nerf the cult power.
Let me put it this way. Town needed about 6 good players to win. Cult needed 1 novice to mildly advanced player to win.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
If I was green and made beeping noises, then you could say I was an alien.
You are sooooo good FB.
You are how old and you act like a child because I'm not agreeing with everything you say.
I never said ika played like shit.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Thank You for reminding me why I went on hiatus from playing.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firebringer
You are how old and you act like a child because I'm not agreeing with everything you say.
I never said ika played like shit.
For someone who said they would not complain about setup, you really are complaining a lot. You have offered nothing to improve the setup and only instead try to seek out anything and everything to just flat out attack. I find it kinda sad this is all you really got to say instead of just, I dunno, just comment about the setup instead of playing the "what if" game?
We can say the game could of been diffrent on a infinite diffrent things that could of happened but it didn't. So there's no point in continuing to jab sw.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
For someone who said they would not complain about setup, you really are complaining a lot. You have offered nothing to improve the setup and only instead try to seek out anything and everything to just flat out attack. I find it kinda sad this is all you really got to say instead of just, I dunno, just comment about the setup instead of playing the "what if" game?
We can say the game could of been diffrent on a infinite diffrent things that could of happened but it didn't. So there's no point in continuing to jab sw.
She did a jab at my play here when I said my play was wasn't amazing
It was a jab literally just to jab me.
I called her jab out as childish.
You come defend her jab as fine or something?
Like I don't know your being weird.
I haven't complained once about setup.
I made comments about play and how things could have been different and even said how I should have played better and admit my faults.
If you think all I have been doing is complaining you are massively cherry picking my posts.
Like I think SW is fine to give her thoughts on how this game went down, but she is acting like her view is the only correct one and when I point out my own views and how she is wrong she directly tries to insult my play when that wasn't even part of the discussion.
If you think this is all perfectly fine in a discourse that's fine but like my only complaints were about play and I tried to point out how to fix those and how this game could have been different with those changes.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
You telling me I should comment on setup seems weird when you say that I promised not to complain on setup.
Which should I do?
Talk about setup which I said I would give zero complains on or talk about play?
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Friendly reminder that this isn't just a place to insult people. Be more constructive or just don't say anything negative.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
For those who have provided feedback, I appreciate it. I'm not yet convinced this is the EZ cult win some think it is, but I am definitely willing to experiment with tweaks to help town.
Based on suggestions, my main thought is to add an unconvertible citizen, say "Fred the Atheist" who knows he can't be converted. This would give town a reliable voice they can trust.
One thing I will note is that this setup makes every win, in either direction, look like a stomp. If town wins, they probably killed the cult in one fell swoop and have 4+ people alive. If cult wins, it was probably D3/D4 with 3/2 members alive.
The base for this setup is that town gets two mislynches, which is generally where it should be for a nine-player game. (See: 7 town vs 2 mafia) This I want to keep, but I would instead want to look for minor changes that shift the chance of correctly lynching slightly in Town's favor.
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilverWolf
Thank You for reminding me why I went on hiatus from playing.
I have a friend who gets very touchy when you insult his art. This sounds like something he would say.
The difference is that he has depression. He is allowed to be emotionally touchy.
Best way I can say this without posting a giant wall;
Get the fuck over it.
Nobody is denying ika the credit for winning this game. He played a remarkable game and there is no way I would've lynched him. However the players are also coming up with ways for town to win this setup easier because it does seem scumsided when the CL is smart, like in ika's case. The longer the game goes on, the harder it is, which is why the vig suggestion is imo a good one, to give town that LYLO-MYLO buff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ika
For someone who said they would not complain about setup, you really are complaining a lot.
[citation needed]
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Re: S-FM 223: Cult of Zed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stealthbomber16
[citation needed]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firebringer
/In
I am signing knowing this game will not be balanced, so I will not complain post game.
your citation.
i think vig is too swing indcative. town is IMO overpowered as is by sheer numbers. the CL should be nerfed to be 1 night cooldown with max size of 3 (dead and alive) or something of the sort.
you could also leave it as is and invoke double lynch days