Moderators and Leaderboard (New poll)

[Dark.Revenant]

Overall results from the previous poll (weighted)

Do nothing: 17

Remove mod powers: 25
Remove supermod/admin powers: 13
Remove donor powers: 6

Remove leaderboard: 17
Remove points: 6
Remove all persistent stats: 4

[Clawtrocity]

Complain about it to Blizzard. Blizzard banned map hacking in custom games in WC3 I'm pretty sure this is the same thing. Anyway to give the commands to the host only? Maybe that'd be a way to fix it. Only let us with moderator codes AND host can use them. At least that'll stop him from joining games and abusing it...He'll have to host his own games and we can just tell people to leave his games...

He doesn't even seem smart enough to host his own game since he joined a game and complained about the host and then kicked the host.

The single kick is sort of being useful since they can't abuse it to kick everyone.

Is there another way we can prove we're the moderator other than a password? In game pin code that involved no actual keypresses/visual numbers. They'd literally have to guess the pin code then...I know nothing about map macking/programming so I don't know if that's possible...Setup an authenticator system where the code changes dynamically and is at a certain website we have to go to.(Since making an authenticator seems stupid.)

So we have
1. Whine to Blizzard
2. Pin code in game
3. Authenticator type website + Pin code
4. Host + mod code only
5. Bend over and let the abuse continue and eventually ruin every game ever.

Sucks because if anyone could figure out a way to stop these guys it'd probably be you and you just happened to not be able to. It's like your parents are Lex Luthor and are making you watch Metropolis burn to the ground.

[SurgeonFish]

Whats the "Bank"?

[Procyon]

The first thing that must be removed is the map-replacement exploit. Allowing modified maps to be run in multiplayer games removes the need to attach a debugger or analyze network traffic, which makes reading anything in the game trivial. I suggest that everyone submits a bug report regarding this exploit.

[McJesus]

wait donors get powers? What kind of powers?

[Lysergic]

wait donors get powers? What kind of powers?


Can't be repicked (I think), longer username length, if host is repicked they get chosen before others.

[tearshed]

I never saw the point of moderator powers. 99% of pub games don't have a moderator, we just have to deal with it. Keep point system and donor powers (they seem harmless?).

[AdmiralCain]

Keep donor powers please; they are cool and harmless. ;)

As for moderator powers, maybe either disable them, or change the mod passwords very frequently, and cause anyone who uses an old moderator password and then tries to kick someone, to kick himself instead? And don't instantly auto-kick when they enter the outdated password, but wait until the point in the game when they try to use their power, to auto-kick them at that time.

That way, moderators will just have to keep track of new passwords they are issued, but hackers will have to spend a large amount of time skimming passwords. Is that feasible?

[monster]

Remove everything.

Unlock all models and hats for all players so they can customize their ingame avatar and we will have a more colorful town drum circle. :D This will also fix the problem of ppl joining games and going afk just to farm points. No point in forcing a ladder point system in a game where randomness, luck and pure chance are a central gameplay element, anyways.

Also the power to kick someone from the game ultimately serves no purpose, even if there is a griefer in the game, kicking him would still ruin the game. Random leavers screw up balanced setups as it is, kicking more people just makes it worse. The only time when kicking someone is justified is when they are a lagger that refuses to leave or alttab, but that happens so rarely.

The only time when I see the donors ability to make their names longer than 20 chars, is when plato makes his name as some bad french poetry or whatever. I'm thinking he can live without it. So remove that too.

[Rickeon]

First off, I want to say that I really like the points. It gives a nice sense of persistence to the entire thing. Even if the points are basically useless, it makes the wins more satisfying and the losses more palatable to see numbers get bigger at the end of every game. It really makes it a lot more addictive. The game doesn't really need them, but they're a nice touch.

However, the points should also be a mostly personal thing. The models are a good reward for them, because they give a nice sense of progression. "Ha! Look at how many models I get to choose from!" But in practice, all they really do is make you a more likely target to get killed on the first night. There's really no benefit other than personal satisfaction in unlocking them, so it really doesn't matter if people hack them. However, going along with that, you should remove the global rankings. Those are attractive to hack, and given that they're global they'll pretty much always be filled by hackers. No way to avoid that. I'm not sure how repick system works exactly, but assuming it does factor in points it shouldn't always pick the person with the highest points. It should either pick randomly weighted by points, or pick randomly from any person above a certain threshold of points. Basically, the main thing points should give you is personal satisfaction that you've played long enough to get numbers that big, and the main thing hacking points should give you is "hehe, look at how big I made that number."

Donor bonuses are fine. From the sound of the bonuses are mild enough that the main benefit of the bonuses is a reminder that the map creator is grateful for your donation. People hacking that is regrettable, but ultimately doesn't matter.

As to mod powers, I have no idea how people are hacking it or anything about map making, but a thought I have is some kind of cryptography instead of a password. Perhaps, instead of asking for a discrete password, the game outputs a number, that must then be passed through some kind of reasonably secure hash function given privately to moderators outside of the game. The results of that hash function must be inputted back into the game and checked for accuracy. If the correct result is inputted, then moderator powers are enabled.

If maps are able to be examined closely enough that any functions actually in the game files are able to be found, then another option is to use semi-prime numbers. Generate a list of large semiprimes. Store the list of of semiprimes in the game itself, but give the list of prime factors privately to moderators. If someone is in a situation egregious enough that it warrants the use of mod powers, they have to request a random semi-prime, following which they must input the proper prime factors (By copy-paste, presumably, since it would be rather prohibitive to input a prime long enough to be reasonably secure by hand...) Assuming the game is able to output and multiply primes large enough to be computationally prohibitive to compute, that would be reasonably secure, I believe... Still vulnerable to someone stealing the list of prime factors from a moderator, but I assume it would be much more difficult.

Of course, it's possible I'm misunderstanding the problem entirely. Also, that's probably a more complex solution than actually necessary...

[Zack]

Uhm, about bank stats... If you remove the points system, then keep the number of games played, and games won as various classes (and achievements). Thats a nice thing to have, regardless of anything else.

[Dark.Revenant]

Rickeon pretty much has it close to how it is.

We're going with a third party program that a friend of mine is writing to do a method sort of along the lines of RSA. The exact details are undecided and won't be divulged, obviously, but it will be nigh unhackable for moderators.

[Rickeon]

Oh. Good. Hopefully you come up with a more elegant solution that copying two hundred-digit prime numbers into the chat box for verification.

[Kalafina]

I'm looking forward to the challenge ^_^
Mafias been the only map so far that has offered anything close to secure =p
All the other maps apart from the ultra tedious rpgs have been a walk in the park.

[AdmiralCain]

If that guy is the real Kalafina (and not just a troll), his IP should be banned from the forum and/or game, for hacking.

[Logante]

DR, I would like to make a modification to one of your options. Personally, I think all powers should be removed except for Donor Benefits, HOWEVER...remove the Donor Benefit that allows them to be un-pickable. It's potentially too abusable.

[Logante]

If that guy is the real Kalafina (and not just a troll), his IP should be banned from the forum and/or game, for hacking.


IPs are too easy to spoof and IP Bans are too easy to overcome. I say we pitchfork and torch march to his house.

[Styx]

Definitely don't agree with removing anything that promotes the continued engagement, and thus community development, of the game. Hence removing unlockables is definitely not the greatest of ideas, not to mention that hackers that do abuse these definitely won't be negatively effecting the game for others. Global rankings is relatively similar to this, people will hack it if they want to but the thing is that it still doesn't have any negative influences on the gameplay AND it still gives players something to strive for.

Donor bonuses are relatively harmless so there's no need to remove them either.

The issue with moderator powers from my perspective seems to be that they don't actually help the game. Any time when a player is worthy of being kicked is almost always after said player has already ruined the game, meaning a remake is a much more viable solution than a revenge kick.

My suggestions would be either: Complain to Blizzard until they finally fix their god awful security OR use Rickeon's suggestion for third-party enabled moderator privileges OR remove moderator powers all together.

[AdmiralCain]

If that guy is the real Kalafina (and not just a troll), his IP should be banned from the forum and/or game, for hacking.


IPs are too easy to spoof and IP Bans are too easy to overcome. I say we pitchfork and torch march to his house.


OK then, can a vigilante take him out please? Kthxbai

[Yayap]

Since I've never seen a mod in action and certainly do not want lots of mods to moderate most games, I think mods should be removed.. As for supermods and admin, I think they can stay since as far as I know, they don't abuse of there powers.

As for the points system. I like the points, but the global ranking is causing hacking.

[CyanBlade]

Read signiture <---- New Macro! ;D

[Membrax]

As for the points system. I like the points, but the global ranking is causing hacking.


I'd cry like a little girl if points and achievements were removed. Leaderboards definitely attracts all the retarded hackers lurking out there on bnet.
So keep points but screw leaderboard.

[Computer]

keep points yes, or else how else can we unlock models and hats.
Leader board is getting hacked left and right, i still have kala on my top 5 with 12345 points...

[Dark.Revenant]

Overall results (weighted)

Do nothing: 17

Remove mod powers: 25
Remove supermod/admin powers: 13
Remove donor powers: 6

Remove leaderboard: 17
Remove points: 6
Remove all persistent stats: 4


We can safely say that points, stats, donor powers, and the highest admin powers are staying. This leaves us with the question of whether or not to remove moderators or the leaderboard. I am updating the poll to reflect this.

[Narks]

fyi new moderator scheme is not susceptible to the flaw in blizzard's shitty game that the old scheme was susceptible to

[Styx]

If we can keep the moderator powers with an additional layer of security then I'm all for it; it gets rid of the need to remove it so we can focus on using mods to improve the gameplay, particularly in public games.

As for the scoreboard, I'm still completely against removing it. I can understand the desire to remove Moderator powers due to its negative effect on others that play the game, but the scoreboard is different. People that hack it inherently gain no advantage over other players or impact negatively on players in general. The scoreboard also gives people incentive to continue playing the game -- something I am 100% in favor of.