[Role Suggestion] Operative / Infiltrator

[Kromos]

Role Name: Operative / Infiltrator

Alignment: Town / Mafia

Game Size(s): FM / M-FM

Abilities: During the day he can choose one person to track. If that person has a night chat he will infiltrate their organisation and take their place in the night chat. He will be able to speak through that person's account and will only be able to see the current night's chat. All of the other participants will be anonymous to him. He will infiltrate as many night chats as his target is currently in. Detection immune roles are immune to infiltration.

The operative / infiltrator can also falsify a night chat for someone each day. If another operative / infiltrator targets someone who is falsified he will be able to feed them with posts supposedly coming from a real night chat. If he falsifies a night chat of someone already in a night chat, the operative / infiltrator will see both the real night chat and the fabricated night chat as he would for multiple night chats.

Additional Notes: The operative can be used to find people with night chats. The most common being mafia or cult. The mafia and cult may end up telling the operative all their names and what they are going to do that night. To prevent this they could setup a code word that every member must say before they can speak freely. The operative will probably be discovered by this but he could pretend to be AFK until the mafia start speaking. Even if the operative is found he will still disrupt the night chat as mafia will not want to give him information about their night actions. They might be forced to choose a night action themselves without discussion with their teammates which might cause confusion the next day as they would not have known what actions they did. He also prevents the person he infiltrates from speaking so they can not give information or help to their team.

A tactic the mafia or cult could use is pretending to be masons, a jailor and his victim or an architect chat. This could throw the operative off their scent and may even get him to reveal his name to them so they can discuss tactics.

By infiltrating two night chats at once he will know that that person is a culted jailor, mafia or architect. An operative has the potential of working with the masons, the jailor or the architect to create a network of confirmed town but it will be hard to get them to trust him with the possibility of an infiltrator.

If an infiltrator invades a mason, jailor or architect chat he will do his best to get them to reveal their names to him so he can tell the mafia who to kill. Mafia can claim operative like they can claim spy in SC2 mafia because they know everything that is being said just like the operative does. An infiltrator would be especially good at claiming operative because he might have been in other chats as well and could bus a mafia teammate to make himself unsuspicious.

If the infiltrator takes the place of the jailor or architect he will try to force his captive or the other people in the architect meeting to claim to him or he will threaten to execute them or lynch them the next day. As the architect and jailor are some of the most trusted roles in the game players are likely to reveal to them and give the mafia info for night kills. This also gives players an excuse for not revealing to a jailor or architect. The jailor will still be able to execute and the infiltrator can only speak as the jailor and not do any actions.

The infiltrator might want to track his own mafia teammates to find out if they are culted.

Technical Details: I don't know loads about how the forums work but the operative / infiltrator would probably have to be in a separate forum with different topics for each night chat. The GM would copy everything that is said in the night chat he has infiltrated into this forum for the operative to read anonymously. The operative can then post in this forum and the GM would make the same post using the account that has been infiltrated.

There will be another topic for the falsified night chat where the infiltrator can make posts that will be sent to any other infiltrators watching. The GM would post any replies made by other infiltrators.

One Sentence Summary: Invades night chats to find clues and to disrupt its participants.

[Ubernox]

I love it. I assume the person is notified that their place in the night chat has been infiltrated. And, because of the nature night chats, the guy can't complain about it in day without revealing himself. Of course, if he was a useless role, like a cultist or something, he could sacrifice him to reveal the mole.

This role could be completely countered by everyone deciding upon a secret signal to give in day if they have been infiltrated.

[Kromos]

I love it. I assume the person is notified that their place in the night chat has been infiltrated. And, because of the nature night chats, the guy can't complain about it in day without revealing himself. Of course, if he was a useless role, like a cultist or something, he could sacrifice him to reveal the mole.

This role could be completely countered by everyone deciding upon a secret signal to give in day if they have been infiltrated.

The person who is infiltrated is replaced in the night chat so he wont be able to speak at all. He'll be told about it.

If the mafia / cult are clever they will use codes to find out who has been infiltrated during the night chat. The infiltrator might be able to get around this by pretending to be afk. Even if he is found he will stop the mafia from being able to discuss their plans and finding people with night chats is useful in its own right.

[TNTShewter]

I aproove of this role. It seems very cool. I would like to try it myself.

[McJesus]

I like it as a town role but not a mafia role, why do you need to infiltrate the cult? Would the infiltrated target be able to only see the current night's or chat from every night?

[Kromos]

I like it as a town role but not a mafia role, why do you need to infiltrate the cult? Would the infiltrated target be able to only see the current night's or chat from every night?

The mafia role can also infiltrate mason, jailor and architect chat. For instance a member of the mafia could pretend to be the jailor and get the victim to reveal his role to him. He would want to infiltrate the cult to find out who they are so that his mafia team can kill them. If he replaces a fellow mafia member in his own night chat then he will know his teammate has been culted. It is also necessary so that the operative cannot be easily confirmed.

The infiltrator / operative would only be able to see the current night chat.

[Ubernox]

How would infiltrating the jailer work? Even if you managed to snipe him, he would just say it in day-chat and everyone who gets jailed would know not to talk. Sure, it would reveal the jailer, but you probably already know who he is if you targeted him.

[Kromos]

How would infiltrating the jailer work? Even if you managed to snipe him, he would just say it in day-chat and everyone who gets jailed would know not to talk. Sure, it would reveal the jailer, but you probably already know who he is if you targeted him.

Like you said the jailor would have to reveal if he wants to say he has been infiltrated. The infiltrator probably wont know who the jailor is because he picks 3 names. Even if he picks those same 3 names again he could get randomed into another night chat if more than one of those people have one.

The captive will not know that the jailor was infiltrated until the next day at most and he would told the infiltrator his role by then. If the infiltrator infiltrates the captive he could make the victim say all sorts of stuff to get him executed before the captive can say he was infiltrated the next day.

[Ubernox]

Oh, I thought he stayed in that night chat permamently.

[TheJackofSpades]

In a 20 player game with 1 kpn it would take 5 days to find every mafia in the game.

It would be pathetically easy to tell the difference between jail chat and mafia chat.

God why do you people blindly love things that are so obviously broken?

[Capitalier]

i fukken luv dis roll

[Luna]

This has now become my most favourite suggestion ever, I must see it in a game.

[Capitalier]

This has now become my most favourite suggestion ever, I must see it in a game.

i know i hav good taste

but simply liking the same things wont get me to love u

i already love false truth's chocolate "coins"

[Dust]

In a 20 player game with 1 kpn it would take 5 days to find every mafia in the game.

It would be pathetically easy to tell the difference between jail chat and mafia chat.

God why do you people blindly love things that are so obviously broken?

Unless there are only two mafia alive, dumbass. They could also be masons.

God why do you not think of these things?

[Capitalier]

Unless there are only two mafia alive, dumbass. They could also be masons.

God why do you not think of these things?

10/10

wow u r a visionary

[Kromos]

In a 20 player game with 1 kpn it would take 5 days to find every mafia in the game.

Depends on the setup. In M-FM III I was never found until the witch killed me with a sleeper agent (cit) on night 6. It's not that relevant to the role and it could be used in bigger setups as well. I'd agree that longer games would make better use of it.



It would be pathetically easy to tell the difference between jail chat and mafia chat.

If every person in the mafia team says nothing apart from one guy pretending to be the jailor or the captive it would be impossible. I don't know if this would happen but the mafia could organise this the night before. One member of the team could say "Hi jailor" or something less obvious which would make the operative believe he has taken the place of the jailor.



God why do you people blindly love things that are so obviously broken?

There might be things broken about it but you haven't said any.

[TheJackofSpades]

Unless there are only two mafia alive, dumbass. They could also be masons.

God why do you not think of these things?

http://mrsnowlin.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/jackiechan_confused1.jpg

[Dust]

http://mrsnowlin.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/jackiechan_confused1.jpg

Well for instance I could think of several tactics that the mafia could utilize to make it seem like a mason while still getting information across. I will not go into these tactics because I may use them in a game with this role.

Also, that picture could be used for your post, too.

[TheJackofSpades]

Okay maybe I wasn't clear so I'll put it into terms that even people who do not have measurable IQs can understand
Three people can be targeted a night; there is no questionability of which night chats are which because it will be blatantly obvious
20 people in game, 1 kpn
N1: 3 people checked, you don't need to check yourself, that's 4 people off the list of who needs to be checked. 16 people remaining.
N2: 3 people checked, 13 people remaining.
N3: 3 people checked, 10 people remaining.
N4: 3 people checked, 7 people remaining.
N5: 3 people checked, 4 people remaining.
N6: 3 people checked, 1 person remaining.

Now let's assume that HALF of the people you checked are killed due to the 1 KPN and the other half aren't. That removes 3 people from that list of people to check. Which removes an entire night of checking.

This also assumes you never lynch a single person the entire game and that the last people you check are the mafia(yeah, all of them) so WORST CASE SCENARIO this ONE ROLE wins the game for the town SINGLE-HANDEDLY in 5 nights.

[Dust]

Okay maybe I wasn't clear so I'll put it into terms that even people who do not have measurable IQs can understand
Three people can be targeted a night; there is no questionability of which night chats are which because it will be blatantly obvious
20 people in game, 1 kpn
N1: 3 people checked, you don't need to check yourself, that's 4 people off the list of who needs to be checked. 16 people remaining.
N2: 3 people checked, 13 people remaining.
N3: 3 people checked, 10 people remaining.
N4: 3 people checked, 7 people remaining.
N5: 3 people checked, 4 people remaining.
N6: 3 people checked, 1 person remaining.

Now let's assume that HALF of the people you checked are killed due to the 1 KPN and the other half aren't. That removes 3 people from that list of people to check. Which removes an entire night of checking.

This also assumes you never lynch a single person the entire game and that the last people you check are the mafia(yeah, all of them) so WORST CASE SCENARIO this ONE ROLE wins the game for the town SINGLE-HANDEDLY in 5 nights.

We weren't arguing about the 20 people thing. But if you want I can.

The operative does not know who has a night chat. He only knows that one person has one (if at all). Having a night chat does not automatically mean that that person (who the operative doesn't know exactly) is scum. If the mafia/cult plan it well, the operative would really be screwed if he reveals himself because he believes that they are masons/jailor/architect chat. He would have to use a lot of scum/town tells to figure out who was in the night chat and who was not and whether the night chat was scum or not.

I would assume that in a setup with this role the night chats would have separate sections so that an operative/infiltrator couldn't just look at the last night's thread and fake being a person.

In short, you are wrong. Read the role again, then come and try to argue with me.

[Kromos]

Okay maybe I wasn't clear so I'll put it into terms that even people who do not have measurable IQs can understand
Three people can be targeted a night; there is no questionability of which night chats are which because it will be blatantly obvious
20 people in game, 1 kpn
N1: 3 people checked, you don't need to check yourself, that's 4 people off the list of who needs to be checked. 16 people remaining.
N2: 3 people checked, 13 people remaining.
N3: 3 people checked, 10 people remaining.
N4: 3 people checked, 7 people remaining.
N5: 3 people checked, 4 people remaining.
N6: 3 people checked, 1 person remaining.

Now let's assume that HALF of the people you checked are killed due to the 1 KPN and the other half aren't. That removes 3 people from that list of people to check. Which removes an entire night of checking.

This also assumes you never lynch a single person the entire game and that the last people you check are the mafia(yeah, all of them) so WORST CASE SCENARIO this ONE ROLE wins the game for the town SINGLE-HANDEDLY in 5 nights.

You make a good point but that will only work if none of the 3 people you check are in a night chat. This is still a problem for the role as you are basically confirming that those 3 people are not mafia. This role will probably wont be a good idea in M-FMs because of this because there usually isn't many night chats and clearing 3 people is a very big deal.

I'm not sure if you are clear on the part where he infiltrates only one of the 3 people he tracks at random or if I'm missing something. It's possible that he tracks 3 mafia on night 1 but he wont know that as he will only be put into one of their night chats. He would have to check those same 3 people at least 3 times if not more because of the random infiltration to know that all 3 were mafia.

EDIT: He wouldn't even know it then because he wont know if he is infiltrating the same person or not.

[TheJackofSpades]

Okay so, I've had some time to mull over how I can get my point across without sparking the 'frothing of the mouth' so commonly found nowadays, perhaps I came off as a bit too off-putting because I didn't think I really needed to quantify my concerns; the reasoning behind them is so obvious to me afterall, because I think about "game theory" constantly when it comes to mafia.

So let me try this again.

The most important thing to consider when weighing the power of a role is to consider 'Does this role outshine other roles that fulfill more-or-less the same goal?'. For instance, let's compare the Mafia Consigliere, and the Mafia Lookout. They both fulfill the same role; they find town power roles and neutrals. However, the mafia lookout absolutely trivializes the consigliere because the mafia lookout, while being unable to clarify what their role actually is, has more-or-less the same power as the consigliere goal-wise, with the potential of completely outshining them by providing the possibility of snagging multiple power roles in a single night(thus eliminating the downside of the lookout and providing targets for multiple days). A single lookout watch on a claimed PR could potentially yield enough targets that, when mixed with day chat PR reveals, would last the mafia the entire game. The Mafia Lookout fulfills the same goal as the consigliere, but potentially does it better and faster.

So how does this relate to the Operative / Infiltrator? Well, my focus in this discussion will mostly be on the Operative and how it compares to roles that fulfill the same goal(finding mafia). I will then briefly touch on the Infiltrator and it's problems as well.

So first, let's look at the Investigator. The investigator is, in my opinion, THE definitive town investigative role(no pun intended). But it also has a cost to being so great; it trades definite results towards it's goal(finding mafia) for more flexibility(getting an idea of their actual role), and the reason it is so great is that it offers a connection towards day chat interaction(more chance of catching them in a lie). But as great as the role is, it cannot potentially carry the game by itself by simply moving down a list of players and fulfilling it's role in any sort of speedy amount of time. I am once again going to be looking at a 20-player setup because unlike FM, M-FM has a cap so it's a number that is 'real'. So let's look at how an investigator moving down the list would look like in M-FM with 1 kpn, and for the sake of discussion let's assume every investigation pairing is 3 roles, and every kpn is put into someone you dont check. (Also: Remember, you don't have to check yourself):
1 – 1 person checked(1 of 3 roles) – 1 player dead - 17 remaining
2 – 2 people checked(2 of 6 roles) – 2 players dead – 15 remaining
3 – 3 people checked(3 of 9 roles) – 3 players dead – 13 remaining
4 – 4 people checked(4 of 12 roles) – 4 players dead – 11 remaining
5 – 5 people checked(5 of 15 roles) – 5 players dead – 9 remaining
6 – 6 people checked(6 of 18 roles) – 6 players dead – 7 remaining
7 – 7 people checked(7 of 21 roles) – 7 players dead – 5 remaining
8 – 8 people checked(8 of 24 roles) – 8 players dead – 3 remaining
9 – 9 people checked(9 of 27 roles) – 9 players dead – 1 remaining
For the sake of argument, if that last person is mafia, you'd know without checking, or they'd be dead before you did. So best case scenario an investigator can cover all 20 players in 9 days. But there's the caveat of you only ever having a 33% chance of being right about a mafia's role looking purely at the odds of each role in the pairing being either town or mafia(if properly balanced). Everything else that lends itself to the Investigator's strength comes from day chat.

Now let's look at the Sheriff. The sheriff is what you call the investigative role in it's purest and simplest form, and for good reason, because it was the original(don't quote me on that). It is simply a point-and-shoot kind of role, with little to no thought involved and so as far as 'best case scenarios' go, the sheriff probably has the most potential of the current investigative roles at getting A) Lucky or B) Covering the most amount of people when KPN doesn't fall on your investigations. So let's look at that now, with the same conditions as above:
1 – 1 person checked – 1 person dead – 17 remaining
2 – 2 people checked – 2 people dead – 15 remaining
3 – 3 people checked – 3 people dead – 13 remaining
4 – 4 people checked – 4 people dead – 11 remaining
5 – 5 people checked – 5 people dead – 9 remaining
6 – 6 people checked – 6 people dead – 7 remaining
7 – 7 people checked – 7 people dead – 5 remaining
8 – 8 people checked – 8 people dead – 3 remaining
9 – 9 people checked – 9 people dead – 1 remaining
Right about now, you're probably thinking something along the lines of : “Yeah Jack we get it they're the same it's so obvious gawd.” But I want you to think about that for a second. They're the same. Pretty much the exact same in fact, aside from the fact that one gives a binary response to the question 'Is this person mafia?' and one gives a more flexible, information-filled response. But the one thing that is the same, the most important thing, is that their coverage is the same. The potential to cover X amount of people in Y amount of time with Z, A, B conditions will always be exactly the same.

So why bring all this up? What's with the giant wall of text and the lists and the blah de blah blah blah? It's all to paint a vivid image about the concept of coverage, and it's all there to point out that roles that can cover more ground than the norm will always be more powerful no matter the stipulations.

I realize that if you hit 3 people and 2 of them have night chats, it's randomized. I get that. But what happens when none of them do? Bam, 3 people cleared in one night of investigating. Now think about that in terms of the sheriff/investigator; for every 2 nights, 4 people are cleared. But in the case of the Operative, he can do it in just one night. He does the same job in half the time, and he statistically has a greater chance of achieving this on the first couple of nights because the mafia size is so small in comparison to the non-night chat people(Like, 3/20?). I want you to picture a game where this occurs; 3 nights of successfully not finding any night chats. That clears half the game of not being mafia in 3 nights, whereas a sheriff in the same position could only clear 4 people(3 + himself). Consider how different that game would be, how much of an advantage the town has when they can effectively write off half the “lobby” as being non-mafia. The Operative basically becomes the de facto town coordinator in every situation: “Okay I checked these 3 people and one of them has a night chat. Roles please. Okay these two people can't adequately prove their roles, let's lynch one and sheriff check the other.” “Okay these 9 people aren't mafia, investigative roles check the other 9.” Everything that makes it a powerful role stems back to it's coverage, and it's nearly definitive investigating result(night chats are few and far between and 2/3 of them are scum).

And the problem with that is that there is no adequate way of balancing it; the ability itself is too overpowered to make it a singular target because then it pretty much IS definitive, and as you increase it's coverage to diffuse the overpoweredness you give it more and more potential to be radically game-changing. I think that is the main point I want to get across to you, this idea of coverage and why the Operative has too much of it. The fact that there is no real way of decreasing it without gaining the same result(being overpowered) is why I think this role has no shot at being balanced. If you can find a way to revamp it so it solves these problems, great, the discussion we had helped make a role into a better role and we all worked together to achieve something meaningful instead of just showering blind praise. If not, at least I hope you learned a little something from reading this. So if you made it this far, thanks.

I would also like to touch base on how to effectively neutralize the “random” effect of the role and how to get it around it without any outside help but this is already like a novel so I will hold off for now, if this goes over better than my last attempts I'll be happy to expound on that. I'm also gonna hold off on the infiltrator for now too. So I'll end it here.

[Kromos]

Thanks for writing that and I agree with everything you said. I'll think about how I could revamp it, leave it as a fairly unbalanced role or discard it completely.

[TheJackofSpades]

Thanks for writing that and I agree with everything you said. I'll think about how I could revamp it, leave it as a fairly unbalanced role or discard it completely.

You're welcome. Feel free to run it by me here in this thread or in PM if you'd prefer and I'll be happy to give you my two cents.

I'll probably expound a bit on the Infiltrator later; one of the most interesting things about mafia is that mirror roles generally have radically different goals and problems, and the Infiltrator is no exception(For an example of this see my Consig/Mafia Lookout comparison).

[Kromos]

The reason the role wasn't made to track just one person was so the operative / infiltrator wouldn't be able to know for sure a single person had a night chat. Perhaps this would be better now that I have thought about how people can fake being in different night chats, although this could lock in a very hard role claim for that person and makes the role more similar to a sheriff. The operative may not be as powerful however because he can't be sure the night chat he joined is mafia unless they are obvious and unlike the sheriff he is less trustworthy when there is the infiltrator that could have gotten the same information about another mafia team or cult.

I think that any detection immune roles such as the godfather or any hidden targets (FMX) should be immune to infiltration. If the operative / infiltrator targets a framed target (from the previous night as the operative / infiltrator picks a target during the day) then the framer could completely fabricate a night chat in order to make that person look like they are part of the mafia. This might be a bit crazy but I'm just trying to think of ways that finding someone with / without a night chat does not confirm that they have / haven't got one.

I'm not thinking about this role for M-FM anymore unless a setup was specifically designed around it.

TL;DR
Can only track one person.
Detection immune roles are immune to infiltration.
Framers can fabricate night chats.
Not good for M-FM.

[TheJackofSpades]

1. Can only track one person.
2. Detection immune roles are immune to infiltration.
3. Framers can fabricate night chats.
4. Not good for M-FM.
Some preliminary thoughts while I think about it a bit more in depth:
#1 would only work with #2 being attached to it, and even then the cult would be pretty much screwed by this role anyway.
#3 is something that will require a bit more "fleshing out"; this is something I am currently struggling with myself in trying to make the framer more relevant, but the way you have it laid out is something that would be extremely difficult to predict and work around because it doesn't "flow" well, you are providing a night chat for a frame that happened the night before for an action that is supposed to be affecting the next night. Also note that this is something that would only be up to the host's discretion because it's changing how the framer works, it isn't necessarily attached to the role itself.
#4 is true, but it isn't entirely accurate to imply that it would work for FM either, at least in it's 3-target variation. I didn't remake how the actions would work for the Operative in my big post but if we changed the conditions to be like 3 KPN, 40 players you'd probably see the same pattern.

[Kromos]

This is what I have atm:

During the day he can choose one person to track. If that person has a night chat he will infiltrate their organisation and take their place in the night chat. He will be able to speak through that person's account and will only be able to see the current night's chat. All of the other participants will be anonymous to him. He will infiltrate as many night chats as his target is currently in. Detection immune roles are immune to infiltration.

The operative / infiltrator can also falsify a night chat for someone each day. If another operative / infiltrator targets someone who is falsified he will be able to feed them with posts supposedly coming from a real night chat. If he falsifies a night chat of someone already in a night chat, the operative / infiltrator will see both the real night chat and the fabricated night chat as he would for multiple night chats.

Its complexity is starting to worry me but I think this makes it more balanced. He is a very powerful role, especially to the cult, but there are many ways to make his investigations less certain.

[TheJackofSpades]

This is what I have atm:

During the day he can choose one person to track. If that person has a night chat he will infiltrate their organisation and take their place in the night chat. He will be able to speak through that person's account and will only be able to see the current night's chat. All of the other participants will be anonymous to him. He will infiltrate as many night chats as his target is currently in. Detection immune roles are immune to infiltration.

The operative / infiltrator can also falsify a night chat for someone each day. If another operative / infiltrator targets someone who is falsified he will be able to feed them with posts supposedly coming from a real night chat. If he falsifies a night chat of someone already in a night chat, the operative / infiltrator will see both the real night chat and the fabricated night chat as he would for multiple night chats.

Its complexity is starting to worry me but I think this makes it more balanced. He is a very powerful role, especially to the cult, but there are many ways to make his investigations less certain.
Let me first start by saying I really respect your perseverance on this, it's more than uncommon for people to really just not put any effort into a role beyond the time it takes for them to write it down into a cohesive paragraph and post it on the forums. Seeing something to contrary is honestly refreshing.

Two things about the latest ideas:

I'm a little confused as to how you anticipate the above bolded statement to actually work. It's important that you try and keep this idea grounded within the realm of possibility, first and foremost.
What's your idea behind the second paragraph? Why give the Operative the ability to falsify a night chat as a means of countering itself? I assume it's an attempt at trying to transfer your framer power so that it's not attached to a different role but I'm not sure this is how to handle it either.


I'm honestly really trying to wrack my brain as to a direction I could suggest you try and take this role. It's funny but despite my original complete unwillingness to see this role implemented, I am now legitimately interested in helping you make it into something workable. I'll put some more thought into it when I can, I've been busy lately trying to find places to apply to for an IRL job as well as a sudden rush of papers to write for school. I haven't forgotten about the stuff I promised to write up, I just want to give it the time I gave the Operative and haven't quite had an opportunity to do so.

Cheers.

[Fragos]

I have decided to include this role as one of the possible roles in later Five-Sided Town games. Infiltrator will be probably Tycoon aligned.

[Kromos]

Cool, it might actually work in a game like yours :)

[clementine]

Infiltrator sounds really awesome!

Kromos, you come up with the BEST ideas! :]