The Sylvian Duplicity: A Moral Dilemma

[FalseTruth]

This will be an FM with minimal emphasis on RP and maximum emphasis on gameplay. Deception, lying, cooperation, and alliances are all encouraged in this game. Lurking is not. You have been warned. I will be reviewing all applicants to ensure that they are not signing up for something beyond their capabilities. This is an advanced FM, meant for experienced players only. It will begin when FMX concludes, or reaches a logical conclusion.

The Desuits and the Celmora have been fighting for centuries. No one can even recall why they were fighting, they only know that they hate the other clan with a passion. Fortunately, the tension between the clans has never led to any violence. Both the Desuits and the Celmora regard themselves as peaceful peoples and uphold morals regarding the value of human life. Once in a while, you would have a skirmish between the youngsters, but the adults always found a way to break up the fights in a reasonable and civil fashion.

Then the unthinkable happened. A warring clan found the Oasis of Relan, a site sacred to both the Desuits and the Celmora. They occupied the area and claimed it as their own. A ransom was demanded in return for the land. A messenger was sent to both the Desuit and the Celmora Chieftain with the following message:

Haven't you always wondered who is more worthy of this land? We know of your infighting, and we wish to assist you in your quest to rid yourselves of your opposition. Consider this a contest. A contest that shall decide which one of you clans is more worthy of this land. We are not your enemies, we are your friends. We will provide you weapons to fight your opponents, but you will be required to make the conscious decision to kill. It is up to you. Our weapons cannot kill us, such is their design.Whomever emerges victorious will gain the favor of the Sylvians and the Oasis of Relan shall be theirs.

/hype

Role List:
Sylvian
Sylvian
Desuit Chieftain
Desuit
Desuit
Celmorian Chieftain
Celmorian
Celmorian
Friedrich the Druid

Desuit Chieftain

Every night, you can check one person to see if they are a Desuit. You will be told only that they are a Desuit or not a Desuit. Sylvians show up as Desuits to you due to their skilled tactics in the art of deception.

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose, but you will be unable to perform your check if you choose to do so. Weapons will be one-shot only.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead OR ensure that all the Celmora are dead.

Desuit

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose. Weapons will be one-shot only.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead OR ensure that all the Celmora are dead.

Celmorian Chieftain

Every night, you can check one person to see if they are a Celmorian. You will be told only that they are a Celmorian or not a Celmorian. Slyvians show up as Celmora to you due to their skilled tactics in the art of deception.

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose, but you will be unable to perform your check if you choose to do so. Weapons will be one-shot only.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead OR ensure that all the Desuits are dead.

Celmorian

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose. Weapons will be one-shot only.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead OR ensure that all the Desuits are dead.

Sylvian

Every night you can choose to give out a weapon for a Non-Sylvians to use. This is the only method by which you can kill.

Whenever a Chieftain checks you, you will appear as though you are part of their clan. The only way for the Chieftains to find you is if they collaborate and share their results truthfully. It is your goal to prevent this from happening.

You are immune at night.

Win condition: Ensure that either the Desuits OR the Celmora die out completely.

Friedrich the Druid

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose. Weapons will be one-shot only. Whenever a Chieftain checks you, you will appear as though you are part of their clan. The only way for the Chieftains to find you is if they collaborate and share their results truthfully.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead and survive.


FAQ
1) How will voting occur?
- The person with the greatest amount of votes after the specified time period will be lynched. People will have the ability to vote for multiple people at the same time. You can also vote no lynch.

2) What is Friedrich's investigation result?
- Friedrich will show up as part of everyone's clan, just like a Sylvian would. It's sort of like a mafia's back up claim.

3) Will there be a Day/Night Cycle?
- No, day and night will not be combined in any way.

4) Will there be a mafia chat?
- Yes, Sylvians will have a night chat.

5) If two or more people have the same amount of votes, does it mean that there is no lynch, or all will be lynched?
- It will result in a stalemate scenario with no lynch.

6) Do the Sylvians HAVE to give out a weapon every night?
- No, they can choose not to, but remember it is the only way to kill people at night. You have to force them to kill each other. Also, Sylvians are immune at night.

All signups need to be sent to FalseTruth in a pm. DO NOT SIGN UP IN THIS THREAD. Even if you sign up, you are not guaranteed a spot in the game. I will use criteria such as participation in previous FM/M-FMs/S-FMs to dictate who plays and who does not play.

Have fun! Remember to read the role cards carefully before you ask questions that have already been answered :D

[Nick]

{Removed to prevent confusion}

[Capitalier]

IM THE [PROFESIONNAL] DRUID

[FalseTruth]

[Removed to propagate confusion]
[Redacted for truth]
[Censored]

[Nick]

Desuit

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose, but you will be unable to perform your check if you choose to do so. Weapons will be one-shot only.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead OR ensure that all the Celmora are dead.

Celmorian

If you receive a weapon, you may choose to use it on any night you choose. Weapons will be one-shot only.

Win condition: Ensure that all the Sylvians are dead OR ensure that all the Desuits are dead.


Haha. I'm also editing. By the way, you still need to edit Desuit.

[FalseTruth]

Haha. I'm also editing. By the way, you still need to edit Desuit.
Thanks, I think I've got everything squared away. MOAR QUESTIONS :D

[Nick]

Additional questions:

9) Friedrich the Druid need to stay alive to win?

[FalseTruth]

Additional questions:

9) Friedrich the Druid need to stay alive to win?
Yup, edited the rolecard to reflect that.

[Nick]

Signing up using pm might be a good idea though. Popular M-FM signups - currently Borkbot's and Zack's are overflowing. Let's see if this method will hurt less egos than the Borkbot's reserve list method or Zack's outright rejection.

[Ubernox]

I like it, but it seems that Friedrich is a rather unfortunate fellow. Do the Sylvians HAVE to give out a gun each night?

Methinks the best possible outcome would be for the Desuits and the Celmorians joining forces against the Sylvians. The Sylvians rely on tempting the warring clans to use their weapons against each other.

A good idea for the druid would be to pose as one of the clan members, and so be supplied with guns by the Sylvians. He could then either not use them, thus wasting a Sylvian kill, or try to prove somebody as a Sylvian by shooting them to see if they are immune or not.

[Rocshi]

/sign

Two towns. Gamegasm.

This is in the Signups thread, so I'm assuming we can sign up...

[Ubernox]

It really is a moral dilemma.

[Dust]

I love it.

[Nick]

The person with the greatest amount of votes after the specified time period will be lynched. People will have the ability to vote for multiple people at the same time. You can also vote no lynch.

Promotes everyone wins mentality. And an approximately ten day game. Unless your intention is to test patience of the ones receiving the guns...


The person with the greatest amount of votes after the specified time period will be lynched. People will have the ability to vote for multiple people at the same time. You can also vote no lynch.

If two or more people have the same amount of votes, does it mean that there is no lynch, or all will be lynched?

[Kromos]

To win, the Desult, Celmorian and Druid just need to agree not to kill and wait until both sheriffs have a same alignment result on someone.

[Ubernox]

They could even use day chat to co-ordinate their efforts, and the Sylvians wouldn't be able to do anything about it. It'll just come down to the Druid and the two Sylvians, and the druid will probably be one of the ones to get lynched. He really is hapless in this set up.

The real deal here is how bored the citizens might get. Even under strict orders, there is a small chance that some will not be able to pass up the thrill of having a night kill. One of them might also get cocky and shoot someone who they think to be a sylvian, only to find that they were wrong and have now committed an act of hostility.

[FalseTruth]

To win, the Desult, Celmorian and Druid just need to agree not to kill and wait until both sheriffs have a same alignment result on someone.
It's not as easy as might think. Do you really think the Celmorian/Desuit Chieftains should have so much faith in human nature as to just reveal and not expect to be killed? Will a rogue member from the other clan choose to violate his code of ethics to kill the chieftain?

Remember, only the clever Sylvians choose who is armed and who is not. They will surely give guns to the bloodthirsty.

[FalseTruth]

It'll just come down to the Druid and the two Sylvians, and the druid will probably be one of the ones to get lynched. He really is hapless in this set up.
He also has the easiest win condition and can win the most people. He is a counter to the Sylvians in case the two clans decide its easier just to kill each other, but he is also a role-claim that the Sylvians can use if they get caught. He makes things more interesting.

[FalseTruth]

To win, the Desult, Celmorian and Druid just need to agree not to kill and wait until both sheriffs have a same alignment result on someone.
But as soon as a "sheriff" reveals, it is likely he will get shot by a gun given to an opposing clan member. Each member of the clan will need to consider Risk vs Reward, and frankly, risk is low and reward is high. The question is, Will they uphold their morality? or Will they try to win with the Sylvians through deceptive means?

[FalseTruth]

Remember, ANYONE can claim a Chieftain and provide false results to get someone lynched. There is no guarantee that anyone who claims Chieftain is actually telling the truth. Only the other Chieftain can even validate the claim, and the only way to know for sure would be to kill him by lynch or shoot him at night to check for immunity.

[Ubernox]

It will be a wifom filled game, and you're right. This is a very interesting set up that will take a lot of thought to fully comprehend.
The druid is an important role, I know, I just wouldn't want to be him. What would he claim?

What I'm saying is that, if it does come to the two clans working together to co-ordinate the investigations, and if all is successful and no one is killed, the druid will be one of the three people who comes up as both Desuit and Celmorian. And wouldn't all the Sylvians claim druid at that point?

[FalseTruth]

And wouldn't all the Sylvians claim druid at that point?
One can only speculate what might be going on in the minds of the sinister...

[TheWaaagh]

I think this is a pretty good idea, but as others have said the big problem is if everyone decides to be dicks and take the easy win. As a preventative measure, I'd suggest something like the guns have to be shot at night. That way it creates more chaos when you're given a gun and have no idea who's who.

[Ubernox]

Naw, because then it's less of a moral choice, which is what I assume False is aiming at here.

[TheWaaagh]

Naw, because then it's less of a moral choice, which is what I assume False is aiming at here.

It would still be a moral choice, if you were forced to shoot someone then you have to decide who you think is more likely to be in your faction. It reminds me of that game Oops did after one of the FMs where it was like two people talk in a thread and decide whether to drop the gun or shoot the gun.

As it stands though, it looks like day one will just be arguments between the people that want an everybody wins scenario and the ones who don't. For how "interesting" that is, see McPwnage's M-FM (V?).

[Ubernox]

The thing is that an "everyone wins" scenario wouldn't be contradictory to the win conditions of the clans, unlike in M-FM V. Aiming to unite against the Sylvians would be the morally "Good" choice, while aiming to win with the Sylvians would be the morally "bad" choice.

[Zack]

What will happen, in order:
1) Both chieftains claim game start.
2) If there is only ONE counter-claim from a Sylvian on one chieftain, then the opposing chieftain checks both claims, if he sees a "member of his clan" thats the lying Sylvian. Lynch. Go to step 3. If no counter claims then still go to step 3. If both chieftains are counter-claimed then lynch all chieftain claims until both Sylvians are dead, game over.
3) Nobody uses the guns at night. Both chieftains check the same target each night until they find a Sylvian.
4) Sylvians are lynched. Game ends.

In short: The Sylvians are screwed unless you force people who have guns to use them.

Edit: Wait, even if you do force the guns to be used the Sylvians are still screwed.

Do you really expect the two clans to fight each other when its clear who the bad guys are?

[Ubernox]

Need I bring up FM 6? Idiots can ruin anything, and if it is the leaders that prove to be strong and determined, then it will be on the bored and weak citizens that the Sylvians will prey on and tempt.

[TheWaaagh]

Need I bring up FM 6? Idiots can ruin anything, and if it is the leaders that prove to be strong and determined, then it will be on the bored and weak citizens that the Sylvians will prey on and tempt.

Something I don't think you understand is that there is nothing for the Sylvians to tempt with. People sided with Sin in FMVI because if they died they lost, and seeing eternity flop around like a dead fish didn't exactly give anyone the strength to stand up against Sin.

If both chieftains claim on day one their opposing clan members have no reason to shoot them, because in X amount of days the game will be over as it stands. Being forced to shoot though means that even if you want to see an everybody wins scenario, you have to decide who you think is the weak link in your group and shoot them. That's what would make this game interesting. And it would give the Sylvians more opportunities to spread chaos when someone that was "pro everyone" shoots the wrong guy and has to explain it in the day chat, taking the heat off of the Sylvians.

Another thing I was thinking about is that you might want to make it so the chieftains don't find out they're chieftains until after day one. That way there's no mass claim, aside from maybe people announcing their alignment. It will also allow one, or both even, of the chieftains to possibly be shot that night which would make this game much more interesting.

[Nick]

Don't forget Slyvians can also side with a clan to lynch the other. And again supply the guns to shoot. This type of setups will go downhill after the fragile balance is tipped. Announcing your alignment early is suicidal for your clan if the balance is tipped.

I think this game is fine as long as the proper players are selected. By the way, who are the "idiots" that sided with Sin from the start? They are certainly good candidates lol.

[Goremancer]

People have been ranting about FM6 for a while. Can someone tell me in a nutshell, what in the world happened in it?

[TheWaaagh]

Don't forget Slyvians can also side with a clan to lynch the other. And again supply the guns to shoot. This type of setups will go downhill after the fragile balance is tipped. Announcing your alignment early is suicidal for your clan if the balance is tipped.

I think this game is fine as long as the proper players are selected. By the way, who are the "idiots" that sided with Sin from the start? They are certainly good candidates lol.

A good game gives incentives to its players to behave in certain ways. There is no incentive here to side with the Sylvians aside from a vague concept of a more challenging win. If your game relies on picking the "proper players" to play out the way you want it to, then that's a design flaw.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't scrutinize who goes into a game, because lord knows some people just don't have the type of commitment to play and yet they'll try to sign up anyway.

I'm just saying if you want to make a great game where the rules compliment the play styles you want to see, then there are a few things that still need to be addressed.

[Ubernox]

People have been ranting about FM6 for a while. Can someone tell me in a nutshell, what in the world happened in it?

Someone give this man an answer, please!

[Ubernox]

I have to agree with Nick here. TBH the setup is looking pretty good as it is. False is unfailingly prudent when it come to choosing his players.

[Guardian]

it is actually possible for everyone to win.

all the Desuits,Slevians ,and Celmorians will suicide immidiately.
everybody will win.
-Celmorian win con fulfilled twice (Slev & Desuit dead)
-Desuit win con fulfilled twice (Cel & Slev dead)
-Slevian win con fulfilled twice (Cel & Desuit dead)
-druid win con fulfilled. ( Slev dead + alive)

something has to be changed.

[Nick]

it is actually possible for everyone to win.

all the Desuits,Slevians ,and Celmorians will suicide immidiately.
everybody will win.
-Celmorian win con fulfilled twice (Slev & Desuit dead)
-Desuit win con fulfilled twice (Cel & Slev dead)
-Slevian win con fulfilled twice (Cel & Desuit dead)
-druid win con fulfilled. ( Slev dead + alive)

something has to be changed.

Desuit, Slyvian and Celmorian are factions. Somewhat like town or mafia. You need at least one remaining alive to get the win.

[Guardian]

Desuit, Slyvian and Celmorian are factions. Somewhat like town or mafia. You need at least one remaining alive to get the win.

for the 3 factions, the win con is "Ensure faction X or faction X dies"

its really just a word problem.....that can be exploited....

[wolfcheese]

People have been ranting about FM6 for a while. Can someone tell me in a nutshell, what in the world happened in it?
Nutshell version coming up: The teams in the game are a mafia faction (Sin), cult/mason faction (Eternity), and an awkward third faction (Romans). Basically the awkward third faction can win with the mafia OR with the cult, but the team never does a pre-game huddle about who to side with. So one guy in the team tries to switch from siding w/ cults to mafia (instead of killing the GF like the town thought he would), his teammates freak out, he tries to switch back but everything is fucked over at that point.

The moral: If you have a plan concerning your team's alignment to other teams, fucking talk to your teammates about it first.

Not to mention that, outside of the cult/masons, the "town" is actually a bunch of neutrals that don't have to kill the mafia as long as they survive, adding more awkwardness to the mix.

[Ubernox]

I think there's more to FM 6 than that, but it's a good start. How about the ambiguous win conditions of the town, and how Eternity was almost always viewed as hostile cult rather than town's last hope, thanks to lots of evil propaganda.

[Muso]

THIS IS QUITE EXCELLENT, FALSE TRUTH. QUITE EXTRAORDINARY. TRULY BRILLIANT.

[Ubernox]

I can't help but notice that this is now in the signup section....


/sign

[Kromos]

I can't help but notice that this is now in the signup section....


/sign

It has always been in the signups section. You need to PM FalseTruth to sign up.

[Ubernox]

Oh yeah... and I think I even did that already. Derp.

[Muso]

PM False your /sign today!

[Nick]

Approximate start date?

[straykiwi]

/sign

[Rihfok]

It was clearly stated that you need to PM the host if you want to play, not post it here.
Do people even read the whole post?

[straykiwi]

Nope.

[Ubernox]

Hey False, is this thing still in cryo or is it being defrosted for use in the near future?