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View Full Version : Citizens - Slowly being forced in?



Fulla
June 10th, 2011, 01:36 AM
I've noticed alot of changes gradually that seem to be slowly forcing Citizens into the game.

One thing specifically that is ruining games is - Investigators see's the Godfather as a 'Citizen', if they are Excluded he's found him.
- With Godfather not detectable, Investigators can actually find him with ease.
- If detectable he'd atleast show as a 'leader amongst men' and could argue he's mayor.

A recent game I just played:
- An Investigator found the Godfather, day 2, we lynched.
- He then found the replacement Godfather day 3 (A consig pretending to be invest who'd become GF after his death).

He's meant to be undetectable, yet that's not working.

Games can't be played now without Citizens. . On EU it's impossible to include citizens thou as people literally leave straight away. Please keep this in mind DR.

Godfather used to atleast be "Citizen, Jester or Survivor". Now he's helpless on EU.

Dark.Revenant
June 10th, 2011, 03:23 AM
Well you can either:

1. Claim Jester
2. Make him detectable, which equates his description with mason leader and mayor.

CyanBlade
June 10th, 2011, 08:41 AM
My god you people are so thick. godfather ISN'T supposed to be undeterctable, they are supposed to be hard to find! having citizens disabled: Don't do it, citizens are the basic role and are an integral part of ANY version of mafia. and it terms of finding and lynching gf day 2, its a little something called "Luck," you ever heard of it? because the invest got lucky once doesnt mean theres a problem with the game. in terms of having Citizen detect on, yes, ALWAYS have it on, you cant claim mayor, mayor can reveil himself, and mason leader has masons to back him up, and sherrifs can find you too. having citizen disabled and gf immune detect on is better then having it off. and if you have anymore complains, like say about how it's luck based, this is NOT the game for you, stop playing it and find something that you are better suited for.

Fulla
June 10th, 2011, 09:38 AM
Well you can either:

1. Claim Jester
2. Make him detectable, which equates his description with mason leader and mayor.


- Jesters are shown to investigators specifically as Jester OR Executioner. So you can't claim that.
- As said in other post, Mayor they'd ask you to reveal and Mason Leader, they'd want mason confirmation.

Godfather is no longer 'undetectable'.

You should change the option to 'Appear as Citizen' instead.

Fulla
June 10th, 2011, 09:40 AM
My god you people are so thick. godfather ISN'T supposed to be undeterctable, they are supposed to be hard to find! having citizens disabled: Don't do it, citizens are the basic role and are an integral part of ANY version of mafia. and it terms of finding and lynching gf day 2, its a little something called "Luck," you ever heard of it? because the invest got lucky once doesnt mean theres a problem with the game. in terms of having Citizen detect on, yes, ALWAYS have it on, you cant claim mayor, mayor can reveil himself, and mason leader has masons to back him up, and sherrifs can find you too. having citizen disabled and gf immune detect on is better then having it off. and if you have anymore complains, like say about how it's luck based, this is NOT the game for you, stop playing it and find something that you are better suited for.


Huh? My 'complaint' had nothing to do with luck or mafia getting found early.

It was how easy GF can be found now, and anyone who becomes GF after. Even easier to find than mafioso.

CyanBlade
June 10th, 2011, 10:19 AM
It was how easy GF can be found now, and anyone who becomes GF after. Even easier to find than mafioso.

It's not that easy if you are a competent host and make sure there is a citizen or at least a chance of a citizen in the game.

The_Animus
June 10th, 2011, 12:07 PM
I understand that citizens are useful and I think more people should include them in games. Just want to point out that I've seen the following happen a lot as well. Take it as you will.

You: "Don't do it town, I'm not the godfather I'm a citizen!"

Town: "Yeah well citizens are mostly useless anyway, so we're going to hang you regardless."

oops_ur_dead
June 10th, 2011, 12:11 PM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.

Clawtrocity
June 10th, 2011, 12:41 PM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.

Yeah, but what if the pawns had jetpacks and could jump over other pieces and one shot the queen?

FalseTruth
June 10th, 2011, 02:08 PM
All we need is a citizen buff or a new town role that can be called leader of men to fix this.

Fulla
June 10th, 2011, 03:22 PM
Yeah exactly.

- If you play on Europe you will never have citizens. So the GF literally has NO defense, Investigator catch them 100% whilst with all other roles they atleast can argue there something else.

- Some other ability and/or options for citizens might bring them back into the game.

tearshed
June 10th, 2011, 05:53 PM
GF could claim that he was bus driven or the detector was witch'd. If asked for a role he would have to claim one of the random roles, because cit is still too obvious.

Fulla
June 11th, 2011, 01:45 AM
Yeah but thing with that is, they'll ask:

- "Can a Bus Driver confirm you switched him?"
- Nobody replies.
- Lynch

Witch, the investigator will just deny. Public will generally always be willing to take a gamble when someone is accused.

MileS
June 11th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Honestly, I think this is something that needs to be solved by the community. The game shouldn't be forced to move away from the way it's intended to be played because some players can't handle being citizen.

Chaoseffigy
June 11th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.


You must not play on US servers. When people see Citizens they instantly quit or repick host. Out of my 3000+ points I've played maybe 5 games with Citizens...

bob
June 11th, 2011, 06:36 PM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.


You must not play on US servers. When people see Citizens they instantly quit or repick host. Out of my 3000+ points I've played maybe 5 games with Citizens...


This, need an option to "appear as citizen to inv" and "appear as sheriff" or some other role that is played in 99% games, so those 1% with citizens can be happy

Zack
June 13th, 2011, 05:32 AM
Well, in my setup Mayor has 4 votes and cannot be healed. I make GF detectable, and so for an investi to call out the Mayor early would be insanely stupid. If investi calls the first leader of men he finds and bam its the Mayor, then bye bye Mayor unless there is a random bodyguard around. So, it depends on the setup really... I also include citizens in random town, with framer being undetectable. People sometimes do quit when they see they got Citizen, but i've had plenty who actually stayed to the end and participated properly.

So, about rage at seeing Citizen... Solution: prepare your setup beforehand and load it. Don't show the pubs that random town can be citizen. Yes some will quit in rage, but not everyone will.

If you want Citizens, add them. Changing the community starts with you, don't wait for others :P

CyanBlade
June 15th, 2011, 08:51 AM
the only ones who actaully think citizens are bad are pubs and/or retards, blacklist and block 'em, and never see them again. A common theme with all gaming communities, people think they know everything, and they are the most important people in the entire comminity. ignor them, they are retards. and trying to tell them how life works is pointless and will only frusterate you.

Lumber The Jack
June 17th, 2011, 04:22 PM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.


You must not play on US servers. When people see Citizens they instantly quit or repick host. Out of my 3000+ points I've played maybe 5 games with Citizens...


:'( sadly yes. Even when they fall on mason or spy they leave.

I dunno whats with all people want to be super roles. Mafia was basicly created on villages storys.
ANd seriously even in my village we dont have people that sleep with bulletproof vest lol :o

But again I think you can post a thread or go in channel mafia to pre-create a game that everyone will agree with your settings.

Fulla
June 18th, 2011, 05:31 AM
I think we should make a brainstorm thread for Citizen. I'm sure there rooms to add a very little something, that would make him more fun to play.

Nothing huge to make him powerful thou. Just so every game we see Citizens included.

Pawns in chess, for example they are the weakest piece in the game, but have that special ability if they reach the end can become a fallen piece. It always keeps them very valuable especially towards the end. If Citizens had little thing like that, they'd be played alot more

Dark.Revenant
June 18th, 2011, 09:22 AM
Except people are substituting the pawns of Mafia for rooks, knights, bishops, and sometimes queens. Pawns, no matter how useful, can't measure up to that.

wightsnow
June 21st, 2011, 11:21 AM
Chess would be retarded if the entire front row was queens (that being said, some people only want to see action).

Inca_Killa
June 22nd, 2011, 02:17 AM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.


You must not play on US servers. When people see Citizens they instantly quit or repick host. Out of my 3000+ points I've played maybe 5 games with Citizens...


:'( sadly yes. Even when they fall on mason or spy they leave.

I dunno whats with all people want to be super roles. Mafia was basicly created on villages storys.
ANd seriously even in my village we dont have people that sleep with bulletproof vest lol :o

But again I think you can post a thread or go in channel mafia to pre-create a game that everyone will agree with your settings.


Yo. Spy is one of the most fun roles, but only in inhouse games. Otherwise, PM is not used/enabled and mafia rarely use night chat. I've had some extremely fun and 'tactical' games in inhouse with spy.

LeaversGonnaLeave
June 23rd, 2011, 06:06 AM
Playing a game of Mafia without citizens is like playing Chess without pawns.


QFT

99% of people that get citizen will leave and 50% of doctors will leave as soon as they see their roles. The citizen might however stick around for a round to troll then bitch about their role and rage then.

Of course, I made those numbers up but I wouldn't be surprised if I was extremely close for public games. This has led me to be forced to remove citizens from random town role. I however did leave it on random any so that the godfather would still have that to fall back on but every single game where there has actually been a citizen from the random any, the person have left immediately. This is all just from my experience though.

People will always opt for more power as Rev said without realizing that when they get Godfather and come up as non suspicious, they will have no defense and will die. As a matter of fact, just being able to exclude citizens from the game makes the town insanely stronger for the fact that they got a power/support role instead PLUS the Godfather has just about no way to defend and is easily detectable no matter what setting you choose for him.

I'm not sure what you can do to fix this problem but what can you do about it til something is done about it? You really only have three options:

1)Exclude citizens to make people happy.

2)Include citizens to make people ragequit. Then rehost and try again and again until your random town roles(or basic right? i don't use basic just random so I'm not sure if basic can have citizens turned off) are 3 doctors on top of your guaranteed doc if you have one. Of which 2 will leave anyways...

or 3)Go to the mafia channel and deal with stuck up bastards just to play a game with citizens. Sure the game will be more of a challenge and you won't get leavers but is it really worth it?


inb4 umadbro?

Zack
June 23rd, 2011, 06:52 AM
Is the US mafia channel really that bad? The EU one has mostly decent players, albeit some are a little on the trollish side, but you can expect that from kids. And yes Dimaga lurks in the channel but we never invite him. And those guys do tend to play some ffa, or 1v1 or hide and seek, or some other wierd underplayed games, lol. Its a small community... Generally we accept each other and take turns hosting with diffrent setups.

Maybe you do need a secret "DR's Chosen" mafia channel on US, since you have a larger playerbase I assume. Like, Claw and Goon could also send out invites to players they approve and so on. Just thinking, heh.

EU players are somewhat, only somewhat more accepting of citizens. Still plenty of rage quits happening, and people thinking with their e-penis rather than their brain, you know how it is.

LeaversGonnaLeave
June 23rd, 2011, 09:43 AM
Honestly most of the people in the chatroom are decently, if not exceptionally, helpful/nice. Probably only a couple of people that are actually horrible(troll/baddie/elitist). I only have one person from the room on my ignore list though there are at least 2 others I should have on there as well. As far as a larger playerbase, I think at most I saw maybe 45 people in the channel or somewhere around there but most of the time there was 15-30. I'm not sure as to the size of EU mafia channel so I couldn't compare the two.

The talk of making a secret channel for players was talked about at least a bit but it was talked about for the purpose of only having really good players in it and possibly to avoid the couple of trolls that would wander through the channel. I can't say I know about the thought process around it though. And even if there was a secret channel for really good players then it would just hurt the regular mafia channel more since that would most likely leave just trollers/"baddies". But the people in the channel can figure out what they want to do about it.


As far as accepting citizens is concerned, I think there should either be some type of forced citizens in your custom save games, which is a turrabull(it's such a bad idea I was forced to spell it this way) idea, or Godfather needs something done about him. And that's really what the thread is about right? Upon rereading the first post I realize that my rant on citizens was kinda pointless since, while I would love to see some citizens in some games, the Godfather is just too easy to detect without citizens around. Since most of the playerbase does not frequent the mafia channel and is forced to play without citizens then something should be thought of that could fix the current problem. And by without citizens I mean either by removing the possibility of them or by the ragers that quit/troll just because they got the citizen role.

Take it for what you will but Fulla definitely has a point about the Godfather. Except for the changing Godfather to 'appear as citizen' idea since that's exactly what he does right now essentially. It's just that no citizens are picked. Which is my theory for whats wrong with the GF/Investigator relationship but there could be many different solutions to fixing the problem that nobody has thought of yet.

Zane
June 24th, 2011, 10:39 AM
Is the US mafia channel really that bad? The EU one has mostly decent players, albeit some are a little on the trollish side, but you can expect that from kids. And yes Dimaga lurks in the channel but we never invite him. And those guys do tend to play some ffa, or 1v1 or hide and seek, or some other wierd underplayed games, lol. Its a small community... Generally we accept each other and take turns hosting with diffrent setups.


Yup there are really alot of decent players like me and Zack. And most accept the ones that are a bit trollish.. and that custom map players for sure ;D

Nick
June 24th, 2011, 11:16 AM
Surprised that this thread is still active after so long.

I understand citizen is boring. Townies don't like to be citizen. Maybe if MASON LEADER is around. Being citizen will be slightly more fun.

For those who say it's difficult for mafia to win without citizen - NOT TRUE. Mafia, whether GF or not, can always act and vote like a town. I don't believe that GF is supposed to be THE role as mafia. Undetectable GF has its strength (undetectable to sheriff, seemed like a jester to investigator). Other mafia (beside framer) is detectable by sheriff. That is one detective made useless. Which is good enough.

Vote like an intelligent town (easy for mafia anyways) and detectives will not be bothered to check you during mid-game (early game depends on luck). Doctor and BG might be fooled and even protect you from SK.

Raiden
June 24th, 2011, 11:27 AM
I, as an EU player, played no more than 5 games with citizen, all of which resulted in the citizens ragequit as soon as they see their role.

Truth is, sc2 mafia is too fast paced to include citizens in my opinion. Most of the time people don't even talk, even from day 1 the invests (or exe), often even more than one, jumps out of the dark at point at some (presumed) criminal and then everyone lynches him. There's simply no room for talk and reasoning, thus the citizen is useless. As is the spy, since the mafia speaks in monosyllabic words like "kill that", "block this" and they never, ever ever tell names unless they are trolling the spies. Or they don't speak at all.

Also, the lower number of players is a significant factor in this issue. My standard setup is 3 mafia, 4 town "core" roles, 3 random town roles, 1 sk and then random neutrals up to spots filled. Now imagine the 3 random towns are citizens, and the sheriff dies first night. You might as well leave and start another game. You will never have enough info when you have the voting power, or voting power when you have enough info.

What i mean is, i love to see citizens in long lasting, heavily populated games like the forum mafia we are having now, but in sc2... i'm not sure. I can't even have a fully formed opinion, since i never played a proper game with citizens, but this is what i thought so far.

LeaversGonnaLeave
June 26th, 2011, 01:46 AM
I don't see how citizens are just no good in a fast paced game. In my last game as citizen earlier, I blocked both the mafia and sk kill with my bulletproof vest, got saved by a doctor the following night, and only did the following night the mafia kill me because I was that big of a threat to them despite the fact I had already told everybody I was simply a citizen and proved it by GF dying.

Of course that's not always the case for citizens but I would never say there is no place for citizens in ANY Mafia game or something is horribly wrong.

Raiden
June 26th, 2011, 02:45 AM
You are confirming that your contribution to the game was next to zero, and that mafia was really dumb trying to shot you instead of the doctor.

This is my point. In a fast paced game like this you don't know when to put on your vest, good mafia should and will always pick a (mostly) random target regardless of what has been said during the day, unless it is proven that there are no more doctors or bodyguards or they can roleblock them. There's no time for reasoning and pick the proper target. Maybe you play with a 5 minutes long day, but where i play if you set the day longer than 1 minute people will whine and leave.

I don't know what to say, i don't hate citizen, i won't leave when i am one, but what i said remains true at least for EU environment.

Zack
June 26th, 2011, 02:52 AM
My setup has day on 1.8 , trial on 1.2 with trial pausing day. Didn't see anyone leaving... Apart from a citizen or two.. lol

Oh, also discussion on 0.8 , game starts at day/no lynch. Thats cus I have a Jailor and I want him to jail night 1.

chocopaw
June 27th, 2011, 04:14 AM
Pubfags are still fags, but I somehow see less leavers because of role lately. I announce that there will be citizens at the beginning and why, maybe that helps. ¯\_(?)_/¯

Zack
June 27th, 2011, 04:30 AM
Maybe cus they realize that if they win a game as citizen once, then they will be less likely to get that role again? :P

George Bush Senior
June 27th, 2011, 10:28 AM
If used correctly, citizen can be the most useful unit in the game. Just claim doctor, use your vest, and watch the mafia waste 2 whole nights trying to kill.... a citizen?? Citizens are fuckin awesome dude.

Also, most games I've played as citizens were when I got the "Random Any" slot. This gives you a HUGE advantage knowing that you are the random any. One trick I once pulled with this is that I claimed Survivor at around the late point in the game where there are as many mafia as there were townies. Just bait the mafia saying "Hey mafia, I'm the survivor. Just vote off whoever, and I'll back your vote". Then of course, when they vote someone, just backstab them and side with the town's votes. I'm sure there are plenty of different tricks you can find, but the main point is that it is really easy to pull these tricks off when you KNOW you are the "random any" slot.

Bottom of the line: Citizens kick fucking ass.

Maverick.
June 28th, 2011, 07:38 AM
If used correctly, citizen can be the most useful unit in the game. Just claim doctor, use your vest, and watch the mafia waste 2 whole nights trying to kill.... a citizen?? Citizens are fuckin awesome dude.

Also, most games I've played as citizens were when I got the "Random Any" slot. This gives you a HUGE advantage knowing that you are the random any. One trick I once pulled with this is that I claimed Survivor at around the late point in the game where there are as many mafia as there were townies. Just bait the mafia saying "Hey mafia, I'm the survivor. Just vote off whoever, and I'll back your vote". Then of course, when they vote someone, just backstab them and side with the town's votes. I'm sure there are plenty of different tricks you can find, but the main point is that it is really easy to pull these tricks off when you KNOW you are the "random any" slot.

Bottom of the line: Citizens kick fucking ass.


Exactly man, how can a citizen be disliked? You're choosing your own role! ;D