Night 2 Discussion

[fm Elixir]

So, that was crazy... waiting for Night 2 post.

By the way, I was both thieved from and given a gun last night. Thief would have me down as: BG, Mafioso or Blacksmith.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Yeah that was a crazy day. I was doused by an arsonist. I was hoping to be lynched and pass GF to the traitor because if I die by arson, you will be without a GF.
Here is the PM.


Quote Originally Posted by Arsonist note
YOU HAVE BEEN DOUSED BY ME. I CAN IGNITE YOU ANYTIME I WANT.
BUT IF YOU REALLY VALUE YOUR LIFE, THE DO THE FOLLOWING ON DAY 1:

YOU MUST CLAIM YOURSELF AS SHERIFF AND DECLARE THAT fm HerrZynish IS CONFIRMED MAFIA. FURTHERMORE, YOU MUST ACTUALLY VOTE AGAINST HERRZYNISH.

IF YOU DO EXACTLY AS I SAID, THEN YOU WON'T BE INCINERATED ON DAY 1. WHAT IS FORBIDDEN:

IF YOU WON'T DO WHAT I SAID (FRAMING HERRZYNISH), THEN YOU WILL BE INCINERATED.
IF YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE DOUSED, THEY YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY INCINERATED.
IF YOU WON'T DO ANYTHING AT ALL DURING DAY 1, YOU WILL BE INCINERATED.
ALSO, IF YOU TRY TO OFFEND fm Nick, YOU WILL BE INCINERATED.

GOT IT?

[fm Elixir]

Yeah, claw was Jester. I really didn't consider it until we were at a point that it would have been suspicious to pull my vote. I had to stand with my conviction. Here's to hoping....

[fm Elixir]

And in regards to the thief, if he steels from me again (this assuming I survive), and proceeds to call me Mafioso, I can turn it on him. I was a bodyguard until he took my gun, turning me into a citizen, but a blacksmith also gave me a gun which the thief stole again night 2. I will have confirmation from the thief and if it results in a lynch train, I can get confirmation from the Blacksmith as well, that he gave me a gun; thus exposing 2 important town roles and possibly saving myself from a lynch.

And about the Claw thing, him being a Jester can bode well for our war against Oops, who has successfully named Me, Suicidal and Lysergic as mafia day one. he made it clear that he believed Claw was town, all we have to do is use that to "prove" that his judgement is incorrect.

So yeah..

[Forum Mafia GM]

To all of you that PMed me that I messed up PMs about Suicidaln00b being hidden.... joke was on you.

[fm Elixir]

To all of you that PMed me that I messed up PMs about Suicidaln00b being hidden.... joke was on you.

I don't understand what this means?

[fm Elixir]

ohhhh, I get it

[fm Elixir]

Oh yeah, in case anyone missed it, Monster is likely Vet. Avoid him.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Oh yeah, in case anyone missed it, Monster is likely Vet. Avoid him.

Yeah that's a big probability.

And yeah I thought so yayap.. It occurred to me later he was lying.

[fm Elixir]

Also, I believe fm Phillie's purple pill knocked her out for the day. It would explain why she was showing up in the "currently online" bar (i.e. she removed her invisibility) and didn't say a word all day.

Did herr say anything about what happened to him last night? I can't recall.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Also, I believe fm Phillie's purple pill knocked her out for the day. It would explain why she was showing up in the "currently online" bar (i.e. she removed her invisibility) and didn't say a word all day.

Did herr say anything about what happened to him last night? I can't recall.

That is a possibility. And I don't believe herr said anything. It was assumed he would be fake attacked and healed, yet that's also assuming he was indeed drugged instead of another target.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

I believe the pill used on herr was a healing one. since he never claimed attacked. And like my death note? ;)

[fm TheJackofSpades]

Yeah and monster is def a monster.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

I believe the pill used on herr was a healing one. since he never claimed attacked. And like my death note? ;)

It was an interesting death note.
I would also like to point out that I believe we lost our dark thief...monster shot him dead...he truly is a monstrous vet.
And if the colors line up with the orders of the pills then we sent the pill for "targets thinks attacked then healed" nonsense. But we shall see.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

We need to use the knockout one again if the info we got is accurate

[fm Suicidaln00b]

We need to use the knockout one again if the info we got is accurate

We can test it out by using the drug on someone else....but then if phillie was drugged, phillie would've been notified and might let the town know that he/she was drugged. idk what gender phillie is.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

yes I know who i am killing tonight.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

yes I know who i am killing tonight.

oh really? do tell...
what about our other mafioso? you don't want 'em to level up?

[fm TheJackofSpades]

I do but a janitor n3 would be really helpful.

[fm Elixir]

oh really? do tell...
what about our other mafioso? you don't want 'em to level up?

I have an extra shot with the Blacksmith gun. I can also kill tonight or kill twice in the same night. Though I think i might run the Jester gamble and not shoot it just yet...

I hope Lysergic didn't get jailed tonight...

[fm Elixir]

I get a level up, even if I use the BS gun.

[fm Elixir]

Not to mention, Jack is completely under the radar, currently. I'm more of a risk, better to use the levels on him for now.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

I have an extra shot with the Blacksmith gun. I can also kill tonight or kill twice in the same night. Though I think i might run the Jester gamble and not shoot it just yet...

I hope Lysergic didn't get jailed tonight...

I hope so too, and hopefully a town power role dies.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

if a spy is listening we are so fucked if he interprets the sound.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

So yea, i was seen. Claiming sheriff will not work, I am going to be claiming something else if need be.

Fucking law enforcement. Lets get some results btw, and some kill target suggestions.

[fm Elixir]

So yea, i was seen. Claiming sheriff will not work, I am going to be claiming something else if need be.

Fucking law enforcement. Lets get some results btw, and some kill target suggestions.

Could you be more specific? Seen doing what? Did you get a message? What did it say?

[fm Fred]

Well suicidal didn't get jailed that is something, What did the note say by the way?

Anyways I think our kill or STFU pill target should be Narks, he seems dangerously smart. Do people think Oops is legitimately onto us?

Who is the traitor btw? I think since we will probably have to replace sucidialn00b we should all know.

4 to 5 people are going to suicide out of the 17 that voted claw since the jester role card says 1/4 suicide. Hopefully it doesn't claim me or any other mafia. If the roulette gets all town that will be greatly beneficial to us.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

SPEAKING OF!! Who was the guy that said we shouldn't jail suicide because he might be doused?

[fm BlastYoBoots]

You spotted a lookout watching Lysergic. He most likely saw you.

Dis

[fm TheJackofSpades]

we have a possibility of losing two of us.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

You spotted a lookout watching Lysergic. He most likely saw you.

Is oops a lookout?

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Is oops a lookout?
Lookout is private eye power, I doubt oops is private eye but idk.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Wtf is dis shit we get two modkilled and one replacement?

Welcome dimwit, lets get your com ID plz.

Srsly wtf lose 2 gain 1 real suck.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

When night thread going up? I want see claw role, give us another person for north.

[fm Elixir]

Night RP is at the end of day 1

[fm Fred]

Wtf is this bullshit? Why do we only get 1 replacement for two modkills? That is just not fair, grrrrrrr

[Forum Mafia GM]

Stop complaining! really, you'll thank me later when you see what got randomed for the others.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

Dis


Stop complaining! really, you'll thank me later when you see what got randomed for the others.

Neutral?

[fm Dimwit]

Hi guys, dimwit here. What is the plan, hugs or drugs?

[fm Dimwit]

I want to find the drug powers asap as I can act as a doctor and also knock people out. Can the other hooker port results from their PM plz?

[fm Elixir]

There is no other hooker. They were both modkilled.

All we know is that purple pill likely knocks people out.

Mind sharing your Com name?

[fm Dimwit]

There is no other hooker. They were both modkilled.

All we know is that purple pill likely knocks people out.

Mind sharing your Com name?
I am Goonswarm as well :P

[fm BlastYoBoots]

I am Goonswarm as well :P

Multi goon powers !

Anyways I control a Framer and Hooker, I am half tempted to try drugs out on myself and try to discover what one heals and in the process work at leveling up. I think I moved to leveling up this framer account as I framed someone who was checked by a detecting role.

FM GM please tell me that private eye lookout function counts as detecting role so I would make progress to level 2

[Forum Mafia GM]

Private eye IS a detecting role....

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Private eye IS a detecting role....

K thx, was thinking Mabye it only counted if they used specific abilities.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Where the fuck is everyone...

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Lab. No service

[fm Fred]

I have a test worth 30% of my final grade tomorrow so I won't be on much tonight.

[fm Kromos]

Just a request... can you post orders at the beginning of the night because I tend to post, do my action and then wait 2 days till morning... occasionally ill double check the forum but its going to be rare.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

We have to decide way do...

[fm TheJackofSpades]

lol

[fm TheJackofSpades]

I'm going to be on 24/7 I have no classes until monday.

[fm Elixir]

Jumping in to orders at the beginning of the night defeats the entire purpose of having such a long night sequence. We need to talk out our next step, which will undoubtedly take some time, and then figure out which targets to hit based on whatever play we intend to make tomorrow.

If we bypass or rush through all that, our actions are just impulsive, and impulsivity has no place on FM. SC2 Mafia, sure, but not here.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Well unless suicidal has some amazing gambit, he is fucked. We could allow the Traitor to kill him instead of lynch? Not sure if that helps us or not. Neither dimwit or this account are traitors so it is just an idea. In regards to night action, I want to drug boots and hide dimwit, opinions?

[fm Suicidaln00b]

if a spy is listening we are so fucked if he interprets the sound.

He gets audio clips from what happens to people, just actions. Not what we say at night.


SPEAKING OF!! Who was the guy that said we shouldn't jail suicide because he might be doused?
That I want to know, I think it was Narks.


Just a request... can you post orders at the beginning of the night because I tend to post, do my action and then wait 2 days till morning... occasionally ill double check the forum but its going to be rare.
I'll see what I can do, it's somewhat harder to come up with a plan of action right off the bat. I usually post them at the end so that I make sure everyone has chimed in and we are in agreement. But we might be able to decide your action rather quickly.


I'm going to be on 24/7 I have no classes until monday.
I hate you.


Jumping in to orders at the beginning of the night defeats the entire purpose of having such a long night sequence. We need to talk out our next step, which will undoubtedly take some time, and then figure out which targets to hit based on whatever play we intend to make tomorrow.

If we bypass or rush through all that, our actions are just impulsive, and impulsivity has no place on FM. SC2 Mafia, sure, but not here.
Agreed, but since he is hooker we can probably come up with a night action for him we can easily work with or come to an agreement.
I nominate these options:
1) use purple pill on philie (keep him quiet, it might bring suspicion upon him and could result in his death- or a lookout might spot you drugging him if we do it too frequently.
2)use purple pill on narks (has shown some intelligence-I believe he caught on to the arson gambit- however, he could easily be arson and provided us with that info to trust him).
3) Roleblock narks (not my favorite move, but might prove valuable...)
4) Roleblock Herr ( he claimed wizard and if we RB him and he can not manipulate anyone, it might work to our favor, unless a lookout sees that you visited him.
5) pick a less popular target so we draw less attention to ourselves.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Well unless suicidal has some amazing gambit, he is fucked. We could allow the Traitor to kill him instead of lynch? Not sure if that helps us or not. Neither dimwit or this account are traitors so it is just an idea. In regards to night action, I want to drug boots and hide dimwit, opinions?

To your first option- I'm not so much opposed to it except if I am lynched it would mean they can not lynch another mafia member instead. and traitor can bandwagon on my lynch and become the new GF.
To your night action- you can drug boots to figure out what each pill does (seems logical and more beneficial) i'm not sure why you would want to hide dimwit tho...you have access to both accounts so you can fabricate a story. However, that can wait. We need to determine Kromos' night action.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Agreed, but since he is consort we can probably come up with a night action for him we can easily work with or come to an agreement.
I nominate these options:
1) use purple pill on philie (keep him quiet, it might bring suspicion upon him and could result in his death- or a lookout might spot you drugging him if we do it too frequently.
2)use purple pill on narks (has shown some intelligence-I believe he caught on to the arson gambit- however, he could easily be arson and provided us with that info to trust him).
3) Roleblock narks (not my favorite move, but might prove valuable...)
4) Roleblock Herr ( he claimed wizard and if we RB him and he can not manipulate anyone, it might work to our favor, unless a lookout sees that you visited him.
5) pick a less popular target so we draw less attention to ourselves.

Edited my derp

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Consig
-.- FML T.T

[fm Fred]

Guys we don't know if we even still have a traitor, archangel is dead and sumi and north star were mod killed plus we could lose more to jester death. I think Narks is a good kill target. At the beginning of the day he hinted at being law enforcement when asking for the pm from claw and saying he could believe him because he got a similar result

[fm Lysergic]

Hey guys, I'm not jailed. I have a lot to tell you guys, don't make any decisions without my information. brb

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Hey guys, I'm not jailed. I have a lot to tell you guys, don't make any decisions without my information. brb

Good, the more info the better. In regards to drugging philie that will not be happening. You underestimate the power of the healing pill. It is more important to keep one of us in the game than to temporarily keep another out. For all we know Phillie could be a citizen.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Good, the more info the better. In regards to drugging philie that will not be happening. You underestimate the power of the healing pill. It is more important to keep one of us in the game than to temporarily keep another out. For all we know Phillie could be a citizen.

It was just an option. I understand what you are saying. But would you be "healed" by the pill if you were never attacked?


Hey guys, I'm not jailed. I have a lot to tell you guys, don't make any decisions without my information. brb
Mk. Standing by.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

Dis


Well unless suicidal has some amazing gambit, he is fucked. We could allow the Traitor to kill him instead of lynch? Not sure if that helps us or not. Neither dimwit or this account are traitors so it is just an idea. In regards to night action, I want to drug boots and hide dimwit, opinions?

I got you covered Suicidal, I have a way out for you.
And btw I AM NOT KILLING NARKS. Fuck that shit. He is smart.
And is going to be protected somehow.
My plan is Echo.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

I got you covered Suicidal, I have a way out for you.
And btw I AM NOT KILLING NARKS. Fuck that shit. He is smart.
And is going to be protected somehow.
My plan is Echo.

We need lysergic before we can do anything. We need all info from everyone first.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

We need lysergic before we can do anything. We need all info from everyone first.

We have until Friday at 5pm, we have plenty of time.
Is it possible to become un-dosed if healed by doctor?

[fm TheJackofSpades]

People we need to worry about:
Zack
Echo
Herr if allied with anyone but us
Narks
Oops
Monster- Vig? Anything that can kill when visited. Or maybe a spree killer targeted Monster?

[fm TheJackofSpades]

I volunteer to be Witched tonight to prove Herr's claim.
This is why I want to kill him.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Monster is vet.
Unless our mafia member was witched into targeting someone else.
Spree killers, etc. use knives from what I can tell.

@jacks do tell me of this way out?

@to the traitor. if you come out i can not shoot you, kill you, or do any such things. all i would be able to do was call you out during day chat to try and get you lynched, which would result in my lynching. Now in light of recent events I would like the traitor to reveal himself so we can set you up to succeed me (or not if you have too important of a mafia role. I.E. you are our last (insert role here), because then you would benefit the mafia the most.
My point is that I'm going to die no matter what happens, either by lynching or by arson (arson's attack is unhealable) so we have to prepare a plan of action.

Still waiting on input from lysergic.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

@jacks do tell me of this way out?

Well by the looks of it the only way you will survive the arson attack is by lynching the arsonist in the daylight due to his vests.
I was hoping healing was an option because then we could heal your douse and allow the pyro to "think" he has you. I highly doubt the pyro knows your role. but whomever said NOT to put you in jail (narks, zack) are very suspicious. My plan is fucked.
Were your orders only for day 1? or a continuation. And you NEED to make a last will stating you were doused in case of your untimely lynch.
at this point a lynch is best, but I am pretty sure you will get burnt to a crisp and the town will not know that you are the gf until the corner.
Nevermind forget everything I wrote. It still solves nothing. Until the pyro is dead. we are fucked.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Well by the looks of it the only way you will survive the arson attack is by lynching the arsonist in the daylight due to his vests.
I was hoping healing was an option because then we could heal your douse and allow the pyro to "think" he has you. I highly doubt the pyro knows your role. but whomever said NOT to put you in jail (narks, zack) are very suspicious. My plan is fucked.
Were your orders only for day 1? or a continuation. And you NEED to make a last will stating you were doused in case of your untimely lynch.
at this point a lynch is best, but I am pretty sure you will get burnt to a crisp and the town will not know that you are the gf until the corner.
Nevermind forget everything I wrote. It still solves nothing. Until the pyro is dead. we are fucked.

I have left a last will stating about how I was framed by the arson and the pm included. I have of course left out that I was the GF in hopes that it would be delayed by doctors healing critical targets.
I had thought of lynching the arson during the day, but it is unlikely that we will find him OR be able to tally up a lynch for him. It's possible however.
I do agree that Narks, maybe Zack, and possibly Auckmid could be the arson. They seemed to analyze and comment on my condition more than other (Zack just tried to get me killed).
So I am going to be thinking of my possible actions and am waiting to see what Lysergic turns up, that might effect my plans.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

I have left a last will stating about how I was framed by the arson and the pm included. I have of course left out that I was the GF in hopes that it would be delayed by doctors healing critical targets.
I had thought of lynching the arson during the day, but it is unlikely that we will find him OR be able to tally up a lynch for him. It's possible however.
I do agree that Narks, maybe Zack, and possibly Auckmid could be the arson. They seemed to analyze and comment on my condition more than other (Zack just tried to get me killed).
So I am going to be thinking of my possible actions and am waiting to see what Lysergic turns up, that might effect my plans.

I think Narks might be spy, whereas Auckmid was trying to come off as invest. brb rearranging room.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Make sure last wills claim a town role kthx.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

Lysergic y uno post after such cliffhanger :(

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Lysergic y uno post after such cliffhanger :(

lol ikr.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

lol ikr.

I bet he's is going to post a wall of text from his observations.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

I bet he's is going to post a wall of text from his observations.

2 full pages of text. 5 dolla

[fm Suicidaln00b]

*continues to watch code geass and gets even more pissed of and confused as the second season starts*
Wonder if lysergic plans on posting tonight...or rather..this morning

[fm BlastYoBoots]

So I am goingg to continue to post my retard style on boots and go full intelligence on dimwit. Should be good.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

So I am goingg to continue to post my retard style on boots and go full intelligence on dimwit. Should be good.

Yeah people tend to ignore full on retard text.

[fm Elixir]

It was just an option. I understand what you are saying. But would you be "healed" by the pill if you were never attacked?

There is also a pill that tells the person that they were also attacked AND healed. I'm about to leave for work, so my imput will be negligable for another few hours. I'll be monitoring from my phone, and responding when I can, but yeah.

[fm BlastYoBoots]

We need lysergic.............

[fm Suicidaln00b]

We need lysergic.............

.....You sound silly.

[fm Elixir]

He did say he had info to share.... 12 hours ago... and then nothing. This feels like a day thread ploy.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

it's all in his wall of text in a different thread.

[fm Kromos]

Would you like me to make a thread where I post my findings from every night? That way they don't get pushed through the pages

[fm Lysergic]

Would you like me to make a thread where I post my findings from every night? That way they don't get pushed through the pages

I'll do it.

[fm Lysergic]

My information was on oops_ur_dead. I am extremely confident in its validity. When I said, "information", I meant that I analyzed oops_ur_dead thoroughly.

[fm Lysergic]

As a Preliminary Night Action List, I suggest:
Dimwit Blocks Ganondorf
BlastYoBoots Hides Elixir as Vigilante/Blacksmith/Hooker/Citizen/Town Thief
Fred Hides BlastYoBoots as ?/?/?/?/?
TheJackOfSpades Kills Narks
Lysergic Checks MikeVipe
Kromos Checks Ganondorf

Suicidaln00b jerks himself off.

To be completely honest, I think we can find out Ganondorf's role with his reaction to the death note alone, but if you guys want to be completely safe, its best to check him.

[fm Elixir]

Have our night actions been sent yet?

[Forum Mafia GM]

Have our night actions been sent yet?

Nope, so far, only 1 person is doing anything.

2 hours till dead line.

[fm Elixir]

Is it only GF that is allowed to send the night actions for other mob?

[Forum Mafia GM]

Is it only GF that is allowed to send the night actions for other mob?

That is correct.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Is it only GF that is allowed to send the night actions for other mob?

Yes, I control all AFK people, I can issue orders on your behalf too, but if you do submit your own, they will override mine.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

I had hoped we had the regular deadline (2 hours before) since I have to leave for class in 20 minutes....If we do not come to any conclusions while I'm here, I will leave it in your hands to determine the right night actions while I'm at class. I MIGHT be able to get on my phone and post them for the GM and the AFK ppl, but no guarantees.

If i hear back from no one before the deadline, I will submit orders for all mafia members just in case you guys forget to post yours and turn out to be afk or whatever. (I will however refrain from posting them in the order's thread because they are not "confirmed" night actions.

[fm Elixir]

As a Preliminary Night Action List, I suggest:
Dimwit Blocks Ganondorf
BlastYoBoots Hides Elixir as Vigilante/Blacksmith/Hooker/Citizen/Town Thief
Fred Hides BlastYoBoots as Citizen/Mason/Jester/Thief(DarkThief)/Survivor
TheJackOfSpades Kills Narks
Lysergic Checks MikeVipe
Kromos Checks Ganondorf

Suicidaln00b jerks himself off.

To be completely honest, I think we can find out Ganondorf's role with his reaction to the death note alone, but if you guys want to be completely safe, its best to check him.

That's the conclusion.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Alright, I have included All the above actions. And the Note to be left by the hooker and supposed arson.
I have however included Mafia names at the bottom of the list so if he's town, we will see what happens.
Also we can use the code word "stick" or "masterful" to give him some new targets for night 3 if he IS arson

[fm Lysergic]

Wait. I think Goremancer may be a better target than Narks simply due to the role possibilities and the risk of being caught if we kill Narks. If we kill Goremancer instead, we can leave Narks to the Arsonist and be a little safer because technically, Narks could be being watched by the lookout.

I also would like to modify the death note a bit to be compatible with this. I will probably add Kromos to the list because, if anything, it will clear him of being mafia. There's no way the Arson would waste a douse on Kromos.

Dimwit Blocks Ganondorf
BlastYoBoots Hides Elixir as Vigilante/Blacksmith/Hooker/Citizen/Town Thief
Fred Hides BlastYoBoots as Citizen/Mason/Jester/Thief(DarkThief)/Survivor
TheJackOfSpades Kills Goremancer
Lysergic Checks MikeVipe
Kromos Checks Ganondorf

Suicidaln00b jerks himself off
So what do you think Goremancer or Narks?

[fm Fred]

Narks is a better target

[fm Fred]

also if you haven't yet make the list only 3 names that are pretty clearly not mafia and have none of us on there instead of the current length. That way if he reveals his list it is not the end of the world.

[fm Lysergic]

Kromos, If he really is an arson, tell us by making your first post have the word beautiful in it. Please acknowledge that you have read this.

[fm TheJackofSpades]

If I say "my balls itch" in my sig then that means I am doused or something happened.
If my target was immune, I'll say "I hate sweaty balls in my sig."
vulgar I know, but it shouldn't look like code.

[fm Suicidaln00b]

Why not something smart or witty? That matches your sig a little bit better

[fm TheJackofSpades]

Why not something smart or witty? That matches your sig a little bit better
Hmmm Alice in wonderland quotes?
Why is a raven like a writing desk, something happened to me.
or I am late, for a very important date = Could't kill them.