The New Investigator

[TheJackofSpades]

Wasn't really sure on what the best title for this thread is. I'd just thought I'd touch base on the state of the new investigator in regards to the new coupling for the immune-to-detection roles.

Previously, the citizen, survivor, gf, and jester were paired together. This made the GF relatively hard to pin down with a high degree of certainty.

The new patch has changed this, and has instead paired the immune to detect gf with immune to detect framer, and citizen. Now, I'm not sure how popular non-exclude citizen games are in channel games(I have yet to run into one that has happened on purpose), but I feel that this new coupling makes the immune to detect options slightly pointless because chances are very high that if this new "Your target is not suspicious" text pops up, that your target is mafia( 2/3 considering citizens are in the game, 2/2 if not).

Compared to the previous incarnation, whose chance of being gf if investigated was 1/4 with citi, 1/3 without. This makes the investigator substantially more powerful, almost overpoweredly so in my opinion.

Invest can pretty much 100% guarantee a bad role on the following roles: Witch, Survivor, Jester, Executioner, Framer(immune and non immune), GF(immune), and disguiser. However, unlike the sheriff who gets no information on their non-detects, they also can 50-50 detect arsonist, SK, consig, mafioso, janitor, BM.

Now compare the investigator to the sheriff. The sheriff cannot detect witches, arsonist, gf, framer, jester, executioner, survivor. They can find SK, Consort, BM, Mafioso, Janitor, Consig, and Disguiser.

Sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense as it is late. I just thought i'd share my thoughts on this. I'm not really sure how to fix the issue, but I feel that lumping both immune to detect mafia roles into the same text which is coupled with a very underused role to begin with is just not the right way to handle the rework to investigator.

[Dark.Revenant]

This would be no problem if you guys actually used Citizens like, I dunno, every other rendition of Mafia ever made.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/1-hd-troll-face.jpg

[FalseTruth]

Thanks for making this thread Jack, I was thinking the same thoughts and you just wrote them down for me. About the issue, I also can't think of a suitable solution. I will think about it and edit my post if I think of anything.

[wightsnow]

It was a good way to change the meta-game. Citizens weren't popular in channel games, now they are considered by some (including me) to be mandatory.

[Clawtrocity]

Citizens are always on in my games. I just put them in as Random Town.

Anyway I do agree that I liked how a GF could pretend jester/survivor the town up until random neutrals were gone and then he could say "I was acting like that cause I'm a doctor and don't want to die" It was a solid strategy that worked because of the vast amount of ways you play it.

Now I leave GF detect immunity off and let the invest decide whether he should tell the sheriff to check him, worry about calling out a mayor, or flat out calling him out only to have the "GF" reveal himself as mayor and now the mafia get a free kill on the mayor and they know who the invest is. There is always the chance that he could be the Mason leader as well since Citizens have a high chance to spawn in Random town it'd be a plausible thing. Even other mafia members could stick up for him and say "Oh yeah he tried to recruit me he's legit"

I personally love the new Witch/Survivor pair up because in most situations the mafia will always want to keep them alive and the town could care less so it's more risky to step up as a survivor to ignore getting shot because you'll end up getting lynched in case you're a witch.

I'm sure someday there will be a new role for town that matches with the Disguiser and the framer and that will balance it out because right now unless you stack the mafia the town will almost always have a decent advantage.

[TheJackofSpades]

Now I leave GF detect immunity off and let the invest decide whether he should tell the sheriff to check him, worry about calling out a mayor, or flat out calling him out only to have the "GF" reveal himself as mayor and now the mafia get a free kill on the mayor and they know who the invest is. There is always the chance that he could be the Mason leader as well since Citizens have a high chance to spawn in Random town it'd be a plausible thing. Even other mafia members could stick up for him and say "Oh yeah he tried to recruit me he's legit"
I tried leaving gf immunity off, gf ended up getting mad at me because mayor left the game. What I couldn't get through to him was that he had the same chance of being detected even if he was immune, and there was nothing I could do about it.

[wightsnow]

Now I leave GF detect immunity off and let the invest decide whether he should tell the sheriff to check him, worry about calling out a mayor, or flat out calling him out only to have the "GF" reveal himself as mayor and now the mafia get a free kill on the mayor and they know who the invest is. There is always the chance that he could be the Mason leader as well since Citizens have a high chance to spawn in Random town it'd be a plausible thing. Even other mafia members could stick up for him and say "Oh yeah he tried to recruit me he's legit"
I tried leaving gf immunity off, gf ended up getting mad at me because mayor left the game. What I couldn't get through to him was that he had the same chance of being detected even if he was immune, and there was nothing I could do about it.


The chance is different if there's a sheriff.

[TheJackofSpades]

Now I leave GF detect immunity off and let the invest decide whether he should tell the sheriff to check him, worry about calling out a mayor, or flat out calling him out only to have the "GF" reveal himself as mayor and now the mafia get a free kill on the mayor and they know who the invest is. There is always the chance that he could be the Mason leader as well since Citizens have a high chance to spawn in Random town it'd be a plausible thing. Even other mafia members could stick up for him and say "Oh yeah he tried to recruit me he's legit"
I tried leaving gf immunity off, gf ended up getting mad at me because mayor left the game. What I couldn't get through to him was that he had the same chance of being detected even if he was immune, and there was nothing I could do about it.


The chance is different if there's a sheriff.

I will admit that this is true. However in that scenario there was not, I had died the first night.

[Auckmid]

Some newbs out their might be unhappy with this, but I prepose that their is not an "exclude citizen" button for random town. That way, investigators might not instantly know for certain if Gf rearly is GF

[wightsnow]

Some newbs out their might be unhappy with this, but I prepose that their is not an "exclude citizen" button for random town. That way, investigators might not instantly know for certain if Gf rearly is GF


Their is possessive:
Example: They ate their apples.

There refers to a place, whether literal or metaphorical:
Examples: There is no solution. I expect there are people out there who do not like Citizens.

[TheJackofSpades]

Also, DR, it doesn't even matter that most of us don't use citizens. Even considering their existence in a game, you still have a 2/3 chance of someone who comes up as that text to be evil. Compared to pre-patch where the chance was 1/4. That's a 41% increase.

[Dark.Revenant]

Suppose you had 4 citizens and 2 mafia that might or might not be immune to detection. That's a 1/3 or 1/6 to be evil, which one you don't know. I don't know where you are getting these numbers from, but your chance only works out if there is exactly two immune-to-detection roles and one citizen.

[TheJackofSpades]

Yes, your math is correct. But what I'm suggesting is the face value of what "Your target is not suspicious. They're probably a civilian" means in an actual game. There is no way of adequately predicting exact math of probability due to random roles(bar a classic style game, I suppose). You can't base decisions off of that. The only thing you can rely on is the face value probability that your target is either A)A citizen B) A GF or C) A Framer. Most of the roles are balanced by the fact that investigative discoveries produce one of two results: A good role, or a bad role. The exception to this was the pre-patch surv/jester/gf/citi which inserted two non-inherently bad roles along with one of each other role type.

Maybe that's why I take such an issue with this change, the fact that two evil roles are coupled together with a very weak town role, which makes it feel like the decision isn't even that big of a deal either way. At least with Jester suicide you were risking losing an important town role, and a survivor was always a possible swing vote for the town.

[wightsnow]

The only thing you can rely on is the face value probability that your target is either A)A citizen B) A GF or C) A Framer.


Relying on face value leads to very bad statistics.

[CyanBlade]

This would be no problem if you guys actually used Citizens like, I dunno, every other rendition of Mafia ever made.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/1-hd-troll-face.jpg

I'm pretty sure we would, but there arnt enough room in games to use them. you need the doc, the invest, the shrerrif, 2-3 nuetrals, 3 mafia, a few random towns, and over all once you have the neccities of the game, there arnt enough player slots to add any of the flavor roles, like mason leader, citizen, and the soon to come cultists. this is also why i want to join forum mafia (unlimited spaces). as well as a lot of people find citizen boaring, over all the only way to fix the lack of use of citizens, is to A increase the player cap (thanks for making it impossible blizzard ?) or make the game less dependant on so many roles.

[Clawtrocity]

Blizzards servers can't handle 1000s of games with more than 14+ people.

You don't NEED a doc/sheriff/invest/neutrals/3 mafia

You can do games with 2 mafia, few neutrals, more than average nuetrals, or no investigative roles at all. I've seen a game when playing the "Mafia" variant that had 0 invests/sheriffs, but had 2 escorts and 2 jailors and a bunch of citizens. There are other ways to play the process of elimination game

[Goonswarm]

Must make entire game revolve around my hosting metagame! Tbh DR make sheriff invest as leader among men and give mayor a unique invest description and problem solved. Does 0 good to have a role that is equal to gf be able to 100% prove their role with -vote.

[wightsnow]

Does 0 good to have a role that is equal to gf be able to 100% prove their role with -vote.


Mason leader, but that has a similar problem with masons speaking up. Unless the mason leader hasn't recruited anyone yet.

[Dark.Revenant]

I don't see a problem. Either way, by revealing the investigation, the Mayor/Mason Leader is basically fucked the following night.

[Clawtrocity]

There should be no metagame. The game should always change and alter otherwise it becomes piss easy to win. The only reason town doesn't win 90% of your games is because they are scared.

After the 2nd or 3rd night depending on how many killing roles there are the town can deduce who can't possibly be a town role. You just do a role call and as an invest look for whos lying. I.E. you checked someone that showed up as a cit and they claimed doc.

Obviously players can just counter claim and then you have a situation, but you will know with 100% certainty that one of the players is lying.

Everytime I do this I get people crying about NOW I'M DEAD THOUGH!, but in no situation will that matter if all town roles just speak up. The only true way to play mafia is to play it without a role list. Lies are infinitely stronger, you can manipulate better, and you have no idea what could happen. Unfortunately no one in the mafia channel ever has the balls to play it and they just make games with 4 or less random roles that an investigator can win single handedly.

[TheJackofSpades]

Just thought I'd touch base on the new changes; I really like them. I feel like they better balance the new roles into more comfortable niches. Thank you for taking time to address the issue to some extent even if you didn't exactly agree with it.

[McJesus]

the reason citizens arent in is because everyone wants to feel important and special and unlike real life or something longer they can just leave the game and that is the end of that.

[TheJackofSpades]

the reason citizens arent in is because everyone wants to feel important and special and unlike real life or something longer they can just leave the game and that is the end of that.

I think it's more like there are just more exciting, interesting roles you could be playing instead. To make a comparison, being a citizen in a game full of fun power roles(and some support roles; <3 spy) is akin to playing pong by yourself next to a couple people enjoying a game of Blazblue. I mean hell, Mason is basically a more interesting citizen, and that's it. Yet no one ever complains about masons being in the game.

[Lysergic]

Yet no one ever complains about masons being in the game.


lolwut?

Every time I end up as Mason, all the other Masons spend the whole game bitching in night chat about how Mason fails. Play more pubs, Jack; you'll see people whine about Mason constantly.