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Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:32 AM
The Top
Godfather
Consigliere

The Sewer Rats
Mafia Boss
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

The Travelers
Mafia Boss
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

The Darts
Mafia Boss
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

The Town
Vigilante
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town

Neutral
Thief
Truck driver
Mafia for Hire
Mafia for Hire

Win conditions:
Red Mafia:
See all the Mafia Bosses dead and have the Godfather survive

Regular Mafia: Kill the Godfather and all other Mafia Bosses while keeping your Boss alive

Town: Kill The Godfather and all Mafia Bosses and the Thief

This is inspired by Zack's theme idea along with FalseTruth's minor ideas. The premise behind this theme is that the Mafia factions are vying for power through money. And I wanted to try out how a Truck Driver might fit in to a setup.

When the Mafia Boss dies, the rest of the faction joins the faction that killed the Mafia Boss. Even if that faction is the town. That way, killing is more thoughtful and more carefully considered than might normally be the case. Dead members do not switch factions in their graves.


Money
Each night each faction receives 25 money for each member (from now on, it will be like 10m or 30 m or w/e)

The faction members decide what to do with the money as a faction. Each of the abilities use up money.



Action
Cost


Kill
100m


Regular action
40m



Any Mafia faction may "steal" 1/3 of another faction's money from another faction by targeting a member of that faction.

In addition any faction may put up a job to kill someone during the day. This job offer is anonymous except that the faction's name will be printed. The faction chooses a price for someone else to kill. Whoever kills the target receives the money. The faction that put the job up cannot kill that target. Any kill towards the target pierces any invulnerability that target may have. This is the only way to kill the Godfather. The minimum offer to kill a target is 200m.

Each Mafia faction starts with 50m. The town has no money at the beginning of the game.

The Truck Driver gives additional funds.

The town:
Town actions do not use up money but use up charges. Each role has a starting number of charges. The default starting number of charges is 3. Additional charges cost 75m. You cannot buy a charge and use an ability in the same night.

Town members may be "hired" for the price of 200m

Roles:
The Godfather
He receives an additional 25m each night (50m just for him) and has a night chat with the Consigliere
Is invulnerable until one faction has 300m
May kill and bypass protection for 150m
May "go on alert" and kill anyone who tries to kill the Godfather for 30m

Consigliere
May investigate for 30m

Mafia Boss
Has one passive Bullet-Proof vest
If dead, the rest of his former faction either gain the win conditions of the Godfather or the Mafia Faction that killed the Boss.
Has the final say for kill votes

Blackmailer
May Silence his target for 30m
The Silenced target may only vote and say "I am Blackmailed"

Consort
May role-block her target for 30m

Janitor
May clean the body of his target for 30m

Tracker (Detective)
May follow his target and learn where his target went for 30m

Interrogator (Jailor)
May jail his target for 30m
Role-blocks but does not protect
can only choose to jail after a no lynch day or after two consecutive lynch days
Cannot kill on his own (Choice of the entire faction)

Framer
May frame his target for 30m
the target appears to information roles as a random living Mafia role


Vigilante
Has 3 shots.
May shoot once during the day
May shoot the Godfather once all bosses are dead

Virgin
If lynched or killed, no mafia kills are possible for 1 day.
If roleblocked will become an escort (slut)

Town Leader
One random town player is chosen to be the Town Leader
This gives the player 1 extra vote, 1 bulletproof vest, and an additional 25m every other night.
This extra vote is kept secret. I will keep my own tally of votes so I will tell you when someone is lynched.
If a Mafia for Hire targets the Town Leader, the Town Leader may hire him if he has the money.

Truck Driver
Win condition: Survive until the end
His target receives 25m.
In return, the Truck Driver cannot be targeted by that player's faction or, if town, that player.

Thief
May steal up to 1/3 of a factions funds
May kill for 50m
Starts with 40m
Win condition: Kill everyone that stands in your way
If he kills a mafia boss the remaining faction members randomly join other factions

Rat
Is a random mafia member (Godfather and Bosses are excluded for this role) that is neutral
May send a message to any faction of fewer than 11 words. This message will have to be OK'd by me before sending this off. THE MESSAGE WILL HAVE NO NAMES.
Win condition is to survive until the end.

Mafia for Hire
Win condition: Be recruited into one of the mafia factions
Is one of the possible mafia roles but is not told which one
Can target one player each day asking to be recruited. Only the Godfather or a Mafia Boss can recruit. The decision to recruit takes place during the night.
A recruitment costs 150m

Possible Mafia Roles: Blackmailer, Consort, Janitor, Tracker (Detective), Interrogator (nerfed Jailor), Framer, Drug Dealer
Possible Town Roles: Escort, Investigator, Doctor, Lookout, Coroner, Virgin, Gunsmith

Investigation results:
Investigator/Consigliere/Blackmailer
Godfather/Mafia Boss/Truck Driver/Virgin
Consort/Escort
Interrogator/Vigilante/Gunsmith
Janitor/Coroner
Tracker/Lookout
Thief/Doctor/Drug Dealer



This is very much a WIP. Criticism is welcome.

Zane
December 19th, 2011, 08:35 AM
Damn, I thought it would be my animal forum mafia idea.

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 08:37 AM
I like it, but that day chat would be weird lol.

"You're acting suspicious, you're scum!"

"Why, yes I am. Aren't you?"

"... Yes."

It would be interesting to see whether anyone would be able to accurately guess who the Bosses are, since regular scumhunting tells won't work.

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 08:42 AM
Colorful type. Should be a good idea. I think town might need to be buffed though. Either by number or abilities. I look forward to trying out this setup.

If Mafia boss is lynched, what will happen? Do they join town?

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:43 AM
If a boss is lynched the faction joins with the Godfather or if another faction hammered, that faction

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:46 AM
I should put in a "steal" action for the mafia to do. And perhaps a "thief" role. Ideas for a thief role?

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:50 AM
Yes, the day chat would be very weird. I don't know how to remedy that. Any ideas?

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 08:50 AM
Truck Driver
In return, the Truck Driver cannot be targeted by that player's faction or, if town, that player.

Is that just for that night, or for the rest of the game?

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 08:51 AM
I found a way to break this game. Hidden Mafia refuse to kill at night.

All Hidden Mafia will try to get their bosses lynched to join the Godfather. Then target town!

But near impossible to happen. Given human nature.

And I take back my comments on buffing town. Mafia factions will try to kill each other and leave town for last.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:53 AM
Is that just for that night, or for the rest of the game?
Just for that night

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:54 AM
I found a way to break this game. Hidden Mafia refuse to kill at night.

All Hidden Mafia will try to get their bosses lynched to join the Godfather. Then target town!

But near impossible to happen. Given human nature.

And I take back my comments on buffing town. Mafia factions will try to kill each other and leave town for last.
That is why the Bosses have control of the faction's kill

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 08:55 AM
My main concern is that this becomes a bit luck-based; you're not looking to see if that player is scum, but what role they are.

In a normal game of Mafia, the Mafia know who each other are so they just pick their kills based on who they think is the biggest threat. It's a bit luck-based, they just don't want to be found. When you make a bunch of mafia factions, all of whom know who is on their team, then any target at night is as good as another. I can see some subtlety in day chat as Mafia members don't want to associate themselves with their friends (if the 3 members of one faction make themselves known, they'll be targeted in the hope the boss is killed).

There's still that issue of 'any target other than my buddies is the right one' :S

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 08:58 AM
My main concern is that this becomes a bit luck-based; you're not looking to see if that player is scum, but what role they are.

In a normal game of Mafia, the Mafia know who each other are so they just pick their kills based on who they think is the biggest threat. It's a bit luck-based, they just don't want to be found. When you make a bunch of mafia factions, all of whom know who is on their team, then any target at night is as good as another. I can see some subtlety in day chat as Mafia members don't want to associate themselves with their friends (if the 3 members of one faction make themselves known, they'll be targeted in the hope the boss is killed).

There's still that issue of 'any target other than my buddies is the right one' :S
That is why the Win conditions are so. If the rest of the faction joins after The Boss, then a faction would have to think very carefully about killing someone because they might kill a possible ally.

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 08:59 AM
Yes, the day chat would be very weird. I don't know how to remedy that. Any ideas?

Obviously mafia will masquerade as town, to avoid being killed at night. But mafia factions will not vote and resist lynching to avoid other members joining godfather. To avoid that, why not make it ballot instead of majority vote? Then everyone will vote. And we can somehow connect voting patterns with factions?

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:01 AM
Obviously mafia will masquerade as town, to avoid being killed at night. But mafia factions will not vote and resist lynching to avoid other members joining godfather. To avoid that, why not make it ballot instead of majority vote? Then everyone will vote. And we can somehow connect voting patterns with factions?
Good idea.

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 09:10 AM
That is why the Win conditions are so. If the rest of the faction joins after The Boss, then a faction would have to think very carefully about killing someone because they might kill a possible ally.

It'll all come down to how the players adapt, I expect no one to do any role-claiming. The Town will just have to push for any lynch they can get. At the end of the day, how would you pin down who a mafia boss is? I still love this idea, but the fundamental premise of Mafia is having to solve logic puzzles and analyse posts to determine who is on your team. I think the best course of action for every single Mafia player is to just post nothing and vote for no one and kill at night hoping to snipe a Mafia boss whilst hoping your boss doesn't get hit.

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 09:11 AM
I think doing multi-faction and money might be too risky for balance. Should it be separated first?

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:12 AM
Perhaps I should add a killing neutral to get everyone to speak up and try to find him...

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 09:15 AM
Perhaps I should add a killing neutral to get everyone to speak up and try to find him...

That's an interesting notion, a neutral killer would inspire some co-operation between factions and begin the WIFOM.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:16 AM
I think doing multi-faction and money might be too risky for balance. Should it be separated first?
Hmm. I don't know. My idea has them intertwined so that the factions have the same amount of funds as the rest and that is what is the core of my idea. I don't think I CAN separate the two.

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 09:17 AM
I think doing multi-faction and money might be too risky for balance. Should it be separated first?

On second thought. Both must be implemented together. Make it so that a death of a member is bad bad bad. They might just dump their allies like lizard tails to avoid getting implicated. Will make it more advantageous to risk your life protecting a member from lynches. If member got lynched, remaining members are less likely to be targeted at night.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:18 AM
That's an interesting notion, a neutral killer would inspire some co-operation between factions and begin the WIFOM.
Maybe someone who messes with the money supply... Like a Thief!

Like this:
Thief
May steal up to 1/3 of a factions funds
May kill for 50m
Win condition: Kill everyone that stands in your way

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 09:19 AM
Hmm. I don't know. My idea has them intertwined so that the factions have the same amount of funds as the rest and that is what is the core of my idea. I don't think I CAN separate the two.

10 money per member might be a bit low... maybe 20 money. So that they can make actions every night.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:20 AM
On second thought. Both must be implemented together. Make it so that a death of a member is bad bad bad. They might just dump their allies like lizard tails to avoid getting implicated. Will make it more advantageous to risk your life protecting a member from lynches. If member got lynched, remaining members are less likely to be targeted at night.
If you lose a member, the money that comes in starts to diminish. basically you lose 1/3 of your income. That's enough reason to try to save your ally

Nick
December 19th, 2011, 09:20 AM
Or make townies the bank!

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 09:20 AM
Yeah the main thing stopping this from being a luck-based kill fest is the money mechanic, which slows everything down and makes it more strategic, you can't take it out,

But can you imagine the first few day chats? *yawn* ^^

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:21 AM
10 money per member might be a bit low... maybe 20 money. So that they can make actions every night.
They start with 90m

They can do whatever they want with it. They can save it. They can save some of it. Or they can use it all. It depends on what they want to do with it.

CmG
December 19th, 2011, 09:56 AM
not enough pirates. Too much bread "thumps down"

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 09:59 AM
not enough pirates. Too much bread "thumps down"
The leftover money is spent on rum

Deathfire123
December 19th, 2011, 11:17 AM
HI ZACK'S THEME BUT SMALLER

Zack
December 19th, 2011, 01:03 PM
lol, I am all for this attempt, though this is still quite diffrent from my idea. Recruitment does not happen, see in my idea a dead mafia boss sends the remaining members back into the recruitment pool.

Lets add an interesting notion to this yes? Make it so the hammer vote is like a kill, meaning if you are part of one team and you hammer the lynch on a mafia boss - his members will join your faction.

Lets also add that town can do this too, in other words if a townie hammers the mafia boss then the members of that mafia will stop their ways of crime and will transform into the town version of their roles, like blackmailer turning into a detective for example.

The neutral killer is a good idea to add, to expand on that - if the neutral kills a mafia boss then a shuffle will occur on each of the remaining members of that team. Random.org will decide each member's new affiliation, and they will still all know who their previous allies were naturally. So the neutral killer has the potential to spread chaos and mayhem.

Edit: This also means that if the vigilante kills a mafia boss it is like a townie hammered that boss, same effect - the members turn into townies.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 01:08 PM
lol, I am all for this attempt, though this is still quite diffrent from my idea. Recruitment does not happen, see in my idea a dead mafia boss sends the remaining members back into the recruitment pool.

Lets add an interesting notion to this yes? Make it so the hammer vote is like a kill, meaning if you are part of one team and you hammer the lynch on a mafia boss - his members will join your faction.

Lets also add that town can do this too, in other words if a townie hammers the mafia boss then the members of that mafia will stop their ways of crime and will transform into the town version of their roles, like blackmailer turning into a detective for example.

The neutral killer is a good idea to add, to expand on that - if the neutral kills a mafia boss then a shuffle will occur on each of the remaining members of that team. Random.org will decide each member's new affiliation, and they will still all know who their previous allies were naturally. So the neutral killer has the potential to spread chaos and mayhem.
Thank you for showing Deathfire his error of seeing our two themes as the same but in scale.

That is a very interesting idea. It would cause a lot of chaos and might lead to some potentially game-throwing scenarios. This gives town a boost that I don't know that they need.

The neutral killer thing would be good yes. I shall add that.

Zack
December 19th, 2011, 01:15 PM
Well if the vigi is too much of a boost, then make the vigi's kill result the same way as the neutral killer. But a townie hammering should still have that effect, though this may create a very funny voting pattern, or planned vote ambushes by team-mates when the voted person is at L-3 ... Still, watching these voting patterns allows to gather information and guess people's roles.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 01:59 PM
Well if the vigi is too much of a boost, then make the vigi's kill result the same way as the neutral killer. But a townie hammering should still have that effect, though this may create a very funny voting pattern, or planned vote ambushes by team-mates when the voted person is at L-3 ... Still, watching these voting patterns allows to gather information and guess people's roles.After thinking about it, this would make the day chat A LOT more interesting. each faction would try to find the bosses and and the thief while trying to protect their own. But I won't have their roles change. I don't like to change people's roles unless they're citizens or amnesiacs. There should be someway for the town to switch sides if the mafia can...

Luna
December 19th, 2011, 03:37 PM
I like the idea of the mafia becoming Town if their boss dies to a neutral killer. Kind of a 'ohh crap, we request sanctuary we join the masses!' kind of way. Means that some players will do their best to pretend they're town but secretly screw them over, then suddenly are turned blind and have to rely on town.

Rocshi
December 19th, 2011, 04:02 PM
Please tell me how the fuck town can win this.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Please tell me how the fuck town can win this.You aren't thinking. The Mafia factions need to wait to use their actions while the town doesn't have to. Also, the Mafia and the Town have similar Win conditions that the town can take advantage of. Also with the addition of the remaining Members of a Faction that lost its boss joining the town, the town can have quite a few members. Please think next time.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 04:42 PM
I like the idea of the mafia becoming Town if their boss dies to a neutral killer. Kind of a 'ohh crap, we request sanctuary we join the masses!' kind of way. Means that some players will do their best to pretend they're town but secretly screw them over, then suddenly are turned blind and have to rely on town.
Basically, yes

Ubernox
December 19th, 2011, 04:59 PM
I like this setup.

Dust
December 19th, 2011, 05:00 PM
I like this setup.
Thank you. I worked a good half hour on it.

Dust
December 20th, 2011, 10:10 AM
-Added the role cards for the mafia roles
-Revised the Rat role
-Added the Virgin
-Added the Mafia for hire
-Added the Kill Job
-Revised the town's money mechanics
-Fixed some money values for balance
-Added the investigation results
-Added the Coroner to the possible town roles
-Added the Drug Dealer to the possible mafia roles
-Allowed the town to become mafia
-Added the Town Leader

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 01:15 PM
I have been editing this for a week now without anyone noticing without me telling them. I think that it is now time for me to reveal a mostly done setup for a M-FM that I will host.

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 01:32 PM
I'm bumping this again to get some MORE screen time.

BBmolla
December 28th, 2011, 02:55 PM
Seems way too scumsided.

Nick's breaking strategy works, all Mafia claim d1, and then no lynch so the godfather can kill all bosses. Town don't have any control over that, I guess they can try to shoot a mob boss to gain those members. What if two people shoot the same boss?

tbh, optimal town strategy is to claim Mafia.

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 02:56 PM
No, if the mafia all claim then I will report them for gamethrowing. That is why I have their Win conditions so.

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 03:10 PM
And btw BBmolla, that is what this setup is all about. It's switching the roles of town and mafia. If you don't like that then don't play.

Nick
December 28th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Seems way too scumsided.

Nick's breaking strategy works, all Mafia claim d1, and then no lynch so the godfather can kill all bosses. Town don't have any control over that, I guess they can try to shoot a mob boss to gain those members. What if two people shoot the same boss?

tbh, optimal town strategy is to claim Mafia.


No, if the mafia all claim then I will report them for gamethrowing. That is why I have their Win conditions so.

DR's idea of dead members losing might or might not help. Worth considering.

In the case of double kill, first to submit wins?

Sceptical of mafia joining town. As what? Citizens? How about Mafia for Hire?

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 06:49 PM
Perhaps

Yes

Mafia joining town keep their roles EXACTLY like town joining mafia. Mafia for Hire are a part of whatever faction hires them. They keep the role I give them

Nick
December 28th, 2011, 06:51 PM
And btw BBmolla, that is what this setup is all about. It's switching the roles of town and mafia. If you don't like that then don't play.

Indeed. People who don't like new setups and expecting to play like traditional setups should really not join. It's a lose-lose situation. Though BBmolla should find more fault with this setup so that it can work smoothly later.

Oh yea, Dust are you giving players any "secondary objectives" or the like that will mess up our reads?

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 06:52 PM
No secondary objectives at all.

Nick
December 28th, 2011, 07:22 PM
How can town plan to allocate money for buy charges when they do not have night chats? And what if town leader is dead? No more money for town?

Some mafia roles are intrinsically stronger than the others but all cost the same. I'll take consigliere over other roles anytime. Blackmailer and framer are slightly underpowered early game because the lack of town power roles.

Some mafia roles are more for town than mafia.


Current breaking strategy: Expose your bosses for vigilante kills and town lynches.
Solution: GF ability - Kill turncoat (Modkill) if reveal GF
Ways around: Not defending your GF. Leave him to the dogs. Join in the lynch!
Solution: GF ability - Kill turncoat (Modkill) if vote GF???
Town counter strategy: Everyone must vote everyone

Haha. Balance is a pain.

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 07:26 PM
Town players have their own money storage. There is no communal "bank" for them. Teams are balanced. Trust me.

As I said before if ANY of this happens I will modkill and make sure that that person has censure for his/her actions.

This is experimental. If you do not play by the rules you won't play at all.

Nick
December 28th, 2011, 07:36 PM
In that case, just tell us when you are starting.

Dust
December 28th, 2011, 08:16 PM
When you guys vote this setup for M-FM5

Deathfire123
December 29th, 2011, 12:24 PM
When you guys vote this setup for M-FM5

Hmm, I'd prefer Mcpwnage's but maybe M-FM6?

BBmolla
December 29th, 2011, 08:23 PM
Modkilled if they do what's best to win? Alright. Well I guess they could claim as "Not Town Boss". It doesn't matter if their win condition is to keep their boss alive, in fact they're better off if he dies, they just get a new better faction. There is no incentive to protect your boss at all.

Thief is broken, if he kills a mob boss and a person turns town(or fake claims town), he can out his partner who most likely is now mafia, and lynch him.

I don't even understand Truck Driver. I get the survivor part, but why should he give anyone money? What does he care if they have money?

Rat makes my breaking strategy more prevalent.

Breaking Strategy(It's possible I didn't factor something about money in here, but that stuff is way overcomplicated as is):
D1: Sewer Rats out their Mafia Boss. Vig shoots him. Sewer rat members become confirmed town. Doc/Whatever on them. Travelers out their boss and everyone lynches them(I'm assuming Traveler members become town if this happens).
D2: Darts claim and out their leader. Lynch him. Darts should become town.
D3: Massclaim. Lynch ccs. Will possibly have six clears. Seven with vig. Should be easy win from here.

If you don't play the breaking strategy, there is literally no point to the day phase. Scum won't scumhunt, will just lynch anyone who isn't in their faction.

And I mean, what seems more appealing:
A. Being maf trying to kill 3 other mafia groups and town.
B. Being confirmed town with a buddy.

Not only that, it seems like it'd be a pain in the ass to run. Like there is a ridiculous amount of variables in this setup you'd have to deal with.

You can say "Don't play it if you don't like it," but that doesn't make it balanced.

Your only chance of balancing it is to give incentive to keep the mob bosses alive, because in the current setup, your mob boss dying gives you a superior win condition.

My two cents.

Dust
December 29th, 2011, 10:59 PM
BBmolla, stop being an ass about mass claims. If anyone goes against their win conditions I will kill them there is a reason why the win conditions are so. There is also a reason for the 10 word limit on the Rat's message with no names. Mass claims are looked down upon in these forums. Stop thinking that they are the answer to everything.

Truck Driver? He gives out money for protection. If he chooses correctly he can't be targeted by killers.

Dust
December 29th, 2011, 11:04 PM
Thief? He's there to make the day more interesting. And the main objectives in the game are to kill the bosses and the Godfather. Lynching someone who you know is not a boss or the godfather is a waste of a lynch. Next time, BBmolla, please read the win conditions.

BBmolla
December 29th, 2011, 11:11 PM
?

Lynch the Bosses, get confirmed towns, and then hunt the Godfather.

What's the point of the day phase?

I'm just trying to find flaws in your game, I'm not being an ass hole. Do you want a flawed game?

Mass claims are looked down upon, but if you don't mass claim in this setup you're going against your win condition.

Dust
December 29th, 2011, 11:20 PM
?

Lynch the Bosses, get confirmed towns, and then hunt the Godfather.

What's the point of the day phase?

To find the bosses, the Godfather, and the Thief. Mafia for Hire are looking for the bosses/Godfather to be recruited. Bosses/Godfather have fine line in the day, trying to hide from the rest of the mafia, while letting the Mafia for Hire know that they ARE indeed able to recruit.

The Jobs to kill are basically accusations of being the godfather. People will argue for or against these jobs and that will show insight into their alignment.



I'm just trying to find flaws in your game, I'm not being an ass hole. Do you want a flawed game?

lol? Of course not. I'm just asking you to stop with the mass claiming "breaking" strategies. And for you to read the whole post. I saw what you mean about the thief and I am now thinking about what to do about that.



Mass claims are looked down upon, but if you don't mass claim in this setup you're going against your win condition.
Where are mass claims being encouraged in this setup? I do not see anything of that sort. The mafia will want to hide their boss/godfather at all costs and so will not want to claim at all because that puts the bosses at risk. The win conditions are what you are ignoring and that is why I am asking you to read the setup again.

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:00 AM
Dust if the bosses die, the goons get a new win condition, true or false?

If true, then the win condition they recieve once their boss dies is a superior win condition because they'll be on a superior side.

They're not playing to their initial win conditions, because chances are they have a better chance to win if they claim who their boss is and become confirmed town instead. It's a win/win situation for them, they get to be confirmed town AND have an easier win condition to accomplish.

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:01 AM
The cult aspect is what I'm speaking of, if their only chance of winning is to protect the boss, then of course they won't claim who their boss is. But if they can get a better win condition by outing their boss, why shouldn't they?

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:08 AM
@Your visited message:
People should try to play to their win condition, if there is breaking strategy you can't just make it a rule that it can't be utilized that's silly.

For instance, let's say the setup was Doctor, Sheriff, 3 Civilians, 2 Mafiosos. The breaking strategy here is to have cop claim d1. This allows the doctor to be on him, making it so the Sheriff is invincible until the Doc dies. If you made it a rule that "Cop can't claim d1," then what the hell is he supposed to do if people want to lynch him?

The basic fix to this is to provide a Consort for the Mafia.

So if your setup is breakable you have two options: Punish the players by modkilling them if they try to use a strategy that helps them achieve their ultimate win condition, or actually fix your setup so it is not breakable.

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:10 AM
Or ignore me as players will probably be opposed to a mass claim anyway, as is evidenced by the forum game I played.

Whatever works.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 12:11 AM
Dust if the bosses die, the goons get a new win condition, true or false?

True



If true, then the win condition they recieve once their boss dies is a superior win condition because they'll be on a superior side.

What is this superior win condition that you get out of the air?



They're not playing to their initial win conditions, because chances are they have a better chance to win if they claim who their boss is and become confirmed town instead. It's a win/win situation for them, they get to be confirmed town AND have an easier win condition to accomplish.
This is not a game of numbers. If you think that then I suggest you go somewhere else. BBmolla, when you play sc3 mafia as a town role in a game with cult do you play to get culted? That is what you are suggesting and it is gamethrowing. If you follow what you preach then I would like to watch some replays of yours and see your plans in practice.

A win condition is a win condition is a win condition. You cannot stray from that and you MUST, I repeat you MUST, play to that win condition or it is gamethrowing. If you do not understand this then may I direct you to the player report section. Read the part about gamethrowing.

Also, they are not confirmed town because how do you know that the hammer was a town player? Did you think of that? No you did not because you do not understand how all of this fits together.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 12:12 AM
@Your visited message:
People should try to play to their win condition, if there is breaking strategy you can't just make it a rule that it can't be utilized that's silly.

For instance, let's say the setup was Doctor, Sheriff, 3 Civilians, 2 Mafiosos. The breaking strategy here is to have cop claim d1. This allows the doctor to be on him, making it so the Sheriff is invincible until the Doc dies. If you made it a rule that "Cop can't claim d1," then what the hell is he supposed to do if people want to lynch him?

The basic fix to this is to provide a Consort for the Mafia.

So if your setup is breakable you have two options: Punish the players by modkilling them if they try to use a strategy that helps them achieve their ultimate win condition, or actually fix your setup so it is not breakable.
But what you suggest is playing against the win conditions. The cop claiming is perfectly viable because it helps the town.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 12:15 AM
The cult aspect is what I'm speaking of, if their only chance of winning is to protect the boss, then of course they won't claim who their boss is. But if they can get a better win condition by outing their boss, why shouldn't they?
If you practice what you preach then go report yourself

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 12:22 AM
Crime: Game-Throwing
This is intentionally playing to lose. An example of this is a Mafioso giving out the names of his fellow Mafia to the town during his trial.
Playing against one's win condition is GAME-THROWING. Please listen to this. You do not understand that win conditions should be pursued or else it is considered a crime in this forum. You are try to "fix" some "flaws" in my setup which, frankly, are flaws in your vision. A win condition is binding until events change it. Playing against it before it changes is considered game-throwing.

Deathfire123
December 30th, 2011, 12:23 AM
Or ignore me as players will probably be opposed to a mass claim anyway, as is evidenced by the forum game I played.

Whatever works.

The funny part is Dust ended up using your mass roleclaim plan anyways, so he has no right to complain

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Also, they are not confirmed town because how do you know that the hammer was a town player? Did you think of that? No you did not because you do not understand how all of this fits together.
Well you didn't explain that mechanic.

Vig claims and hammers. Simple.

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:51 AM
All I'm saying is if I was a Mafioso in this setup I'd out my Mafia boss in a second so vig could shoot him. I'd love to be confirmed town with my other buddy instead of hiding Mafia with an enormously implausible goal that will probably end up changing anyway.

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:55 AM
Also I think it's silly that you get modkilled for outing your boss, but if he dies on his own it's okay that you become town. I get what you're saying, but it's just silly, that's all. What defines outing your boss? I mean what if you just pushed on your boss by claiming a PR and getting a guilty on them? What is "going against the win condition" is loosely defined, because maybe if I was forced to bus my boss in a situation. What do I do then? Say "I can't vote him cause he's my Mafia Boss and it goes against my win condition." It's backwards cult because you can predict that you're getting "culted," as opposed to others having control over that.

Also what happens if you hammer your own boss?

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:56 AM
And "preach how you play report yourself" comment, I try to play to my win condition as whatever role I am and if there's a way I can significantly increase my chances of winning I will do that.

Fragos
December 30th, 2011, 02:09 AM
Dust, be aware that if you don't plan the game balance well, it will end up as much sucked as Dark Revenant's Jerusalem was.

Deathfire123
December 30th, 2011, 02:41 AM
And "preach how you play report yourself" comment, I try to play to my win condition as whatever role I am and if there's a way I can significantly increase my chances of winning I will do that.

This is the one thing I disagree with.

Playing to get culted in a Forum Mafia is considered game throwing and discouraged. This is pretty much the same thing

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 02:47 AM
This is the one thing I disagree with.

Playing to get culted in a Forum Mafia is considered game throwing and discouraged. This is pretty much the same thing
I disagree heavily. You have 0 control of getting culted, and if you went out of your way to get culted, chances our you won't get culted and will die instead.

Knowing 100% that you can out your mob boss and get a better win condition is way different.

Deathfire123
December 30th, 2011, 03:19 AM
Well, since this is Forum Mafia.

Hows this.

If a mob boss is killed by lynch due to one or more of his team mates outing him, those team mates will be forced to commit suicide, and lose the game.

Nick
December 30th, 2011, 04:08 AM
I disagree heavily. You have 0 control of getting culted, and if you went out of your way to get culted, chances our you won't get culted and will die instead.

Knowing 100% that you can out your mob boss and get a better win condition is way different.


Well, since this is Forum Mafia.

Hows this.

If a mob boss is killed by lynch due to one or more of his team mates outing him, those team mates will be forced to commit suicide, and lose the game.

According to BBmolla, cult-like setups (Mafia A --> Mafia B; Mafia --> Town; Town --> Mafia) will only encourage traitorous acts. If we temporary ignore win conditions and think of the possible traitorous acts, they are:
1) Outing your team members (for Mafia)
2) Passiveness while waiting for clear winner to emerge (everyone but more to mafia)
3) Not voting up enemies to avoid getting killed or more likely to be recruited (everyone)

Solutions:
1) Forced suicide. GF dayshot. Modkill. Will solve the traitor problem. A lose-lose condition if you out your GF. But what about GF outing his team members? Will it be bad?
2) ...

Hungry and tired. Will post later.

Nick
December 30th, 2011, 05:47 AM
2) I expect non-GF mafia will be passive. As in will not stretch out their neck to protect their GF. And will only bandwagon. Assuming no WIFOM. Won't be much of a problem if we avoid picking lurkers. Townies will not be happy if they can be recruited by mafia?

3) Not likely to happen unless a mafia faction became too rich.

Nick
December 30th, 2011, 05:55 AM
Too tired to think on how to break these roles. Need time. And energy.
a) Town Leader
b) Truck Driver
c) Thief
d) Rat
e) Mafia roles

For non-GF mafia, the best thing to do Day1 is to reveal your role so that you are less likely to be killed?
Eg. I am blackmailer! Dust not talking is my doing. Don't kill me!

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:23 AM
Well, since this is Forum Mafia.

Hows this.

If a mob boss is killed by lynch due to one or more of his team mates outing him, those team mates will be forced to commit suicide, and lose the game.
Thank you. Forced suicide = Modkill. Deathfire sees what I mean. Outing your own Boss is playing against the win condition and should not be tolerated.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:24 AM
Well you didn't explain that mechanic.

Vig claims and hammers. Simple.
Finally, something that I can fix. Adding a gunsmith...

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:25 AM
All I'm saying is if I was a Mafioso in this setup I'd out my Mafia boss in a second so vig could shoot him. I'd love to be confirmed town with my other buddy instead of hiding Mafia with an enormously implausible goal that will probably end up changing anyway.
Why must you insist on game throwing?

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:27 AM
And "preach how you play report yourself" comment, I try to play to my win condition as whatever role I am and if there's a way I can significantly increase my chances of winning I will do that.
Your "chances of winning" are solely for yourself, I assume. Allow me to inform you that being in the mafia or town is being in a team. If I played a game with you I would hate to be in the same team as you.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:29 AM
Dust, be aware that if you don't plan the game balance well, it will end up as much sucked as Dark Revenant's Jerusalem was.
Yes, I do understand that. The thing is that the "flaws" that BBmolla points out are really him saying that non-gf mafia will game throw. I already answered that it won't be tolerated and modkills will follow swiftly if anything that BBmolla suggests happens.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:33 AM
I disagree heavily. You have 0 control of getting culted, and if you went out of your way to get culted, chances our you won't get culted and will die instead.

Knowing 100% that you can out your mob boss and get a better win condition is way different.
There is so much wrong with this post that let me point it all out for you.

1. People did it and were culted.
You got your facts wrong

2. They didn't die, they won
Facts were wrong again

3. It is not different. Playing to get a different win condition is EXACTLY what those players who played to get culted were doing.

If you're going to disagree with something, make sure that you are right.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:36 AM
According to BBmolla, cult-like setups (Mafia A --> Mafia B; Mafia --> Town; Town --> Mafia) will only encourage traitorous acts. If we temporary ignore win conditions and think of the possible traitorous acts, they are:
1) Outing your team members (for Mafia)
2) Passiveness while waiting for clear winner to emerge (everyone but more to mafia)
3) Not voting up enemies to avoid getting killed or more likely to be recruited (everyone)

Solutions:
1) Forced suicide. GF dayshot. Modkill. Will solve the traitor problem. A lose-lose condition if you out your GF. But what about GF outing his team members? Will it be bad?
2) ...

Hungry and tired. Will post later.
So you are ignoring the win condition now? There IS no incentive to out anyone if the win condition if pursued. The GF/Boss shouldn't out one of his guys, even if he does then why does it matter? The non GF/Boss isn't a target. It wouldn't matter. AND the GF/Boss will want to have all the chances of survival possible.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:42 AM
2) I expect non-GF mafia will be passive. As in will not stretch out their neck to protect their GF. And will only bandwagon. Assuming no WIFOM. Won't be much of a problem if we avoid picking lurkers. Townies will not be happy if they can be recruited by mafia?

3) Not likely to happen unless a mafia faction became too rich.
Yea. I will not allow lurkers to sign up for this game. If you have a past of lurking you better show me that you won't lurk for a game. They should be pursuing their win condition (e.g. looking for other Bosses and the GF). Because ya know what, people should want to win with the win condition that they have. If you don't...

Exactly. Town should be playing to their win conditions the whole way through because it is VERY unlikely that they will be recruited.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 09:45 AM
Too tired to think on how to break these roles. Need time. And energy.
a) Town Leader
b) Truck Driver
c) Thief
d) Rat
e) Mafia roles

For non-GF mafia, the best thing to do Day1 is to reveal your role so that you are less likely to be killed?
Eg. I am blackmailer! Dust not talking is my doing. Don't kill me!
Fake claimers to protect the Boss/GF. I fully expect the Truck Driver to claim asap because he is loved by everyone. But the Bosses/GF either claim Truck Driver with him (Because of the investigation message) and/or be investigated and likely be killed.

BBmolla
December 30th, 2011, 12:15 PM
CCing Truck Driver would be a bad idea. They just have to shoot one of the ccs. If they shoot wrong, they shoot the other and gain the members.

Also, I never considered the possibility of Town being recruited as I figured they couldn't be.

Dust
December 30th, 2011, 12:18 PM
CCing Truck Driver would be a bad idea. They just have to shoot one of the ccs. If they shoot wrong, they shoot the other and gain the members.

Also, I never considered the possibility of Town being recruited as I figured they couldn't be.
Let the GF/Bosses decide for themselves

Didn't I tell you to read the setup again? See what happens when you don't read?