FM VIII: Gameplay Discussion Part 2 (How Mafia will work)

[FalseTruth]

Sorry for the delay, but here it is. FINALLY!

First, a few game mechanics changes that buff Mafia.

1) Mafia GF is not immune but gets a night ability. Basically, he's just another mafia, BUT mafia will have to sacrifice a night action from one of their five members in order to kill at night.

2) Mafia teams are allowed to choose which roles they want for each player. They will be given 5 roles and they can choose who gets what role on the first night.
For example, consider this mafia team of 5 people:
TheJackOfSpades (Assigned GF)
Raiden
FalseTruth
Illidan
philie

are given:
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Disguiser
Consigliere

Maybe Raiden is better at tricking people and wants to be a disguiser! He can choose that role on night 1, but has to stick with it for the rest of the game. Likewise every person has that opportunity, but now since Raiden is the disguiser, none of the others can be disguiser.
Credit: philie

3) Mafia chat is ALWAYS open, even during day. The main reason I want to do this is because of codes and my dislike for them. This will probably be the most controversial topic that will be discussed. I think I can make it balanced; more will be explained later.

4) Mafia are informed if their teammates are jailed. Hint: Jailor is a confirmed role in my setup.

Mafia Alignment Twist

There will be two mafia teams. Each mafia will have a "lover" and both lovers will have a night chat in addition to their respective mafia chats. The only thing that changes is the win condition, they will still have the option to choose a night ability just like everyone else. It would be unwise to reveal yourself as a lover to your mafia teammates for obvious reasons.

Special Attributes: If one lover dies, the other will suicide
Win Condition: Lovers must survive to the end.
Credit: oops_ur_dead

Last, but not least, we have a new role I invented:
Ventriloquist(Mafia)
Gets a smurf. The player is able to use two accounts, his main account and his smurf accounts. The smurf can only talk in day chat, but his regular account can access night chat. He can be killed, but has a unique investigator/sheriff description. Basically he will be two people. If the role dies, his smurf will die. In addition, his smurf's vote will not count for voting purposes.

I, as host, will not help town keep track of votes. I will keep my own log of votes and end day when necessary. If day does not end, and I am online when someone should have been lynched, you can safely assume that a smurf is one of the voters voting the "lynched" person.

[Luna]

Everything looks GREAT.

[vornksr]

XD

I hope I'm scum this time.

[Luna]

Mafia getting to choose their own roles amongst themselves - fantastic, nice one philie

The lovers - an idea I've always wanted to see in the game

Ventriloquist - I would enjoy that role a hell of a lot

Mafia chat open during the day - honestly I don't think it's imbalanced, I think it will just allow some cool things to develop, it's not like the mafia couldn't adapt and help each other during the day anyway

[Luna]

Now for the lovers... do the mafia teams win only if the other is dead? So the lover has to backstab their mafia buddies toward the end for a win?

Because that's what I thought my secondary objective was as Scarlet in FMVII, and it excited me for a moment

[FalseTruth]

Now for the lovers... do the mafia teams win only if the other is dead? So the lover has to backstab their mafia buddies toward the end for a win?

Because that's what I thought my secondary objective was as Scarlet in FMVII, and it excited me for a moment
They just have to survive, but I am changing Town's win condition slightly such that it would be beneficial for them to side with town. Wait for Part 3 for more info!

[McJesus]

seems pretty cool but wouldn't the lovers win conditions get in the way of their factions win conditions? Also I would feel uneasy if the mafia's decided to just work together through the lovers, I don't see what would stop them and it would make them a lot more powerful of a force to be reckoned with early game.

[FalseTruth]

seems pretty cool but wouldn't the lovers win conditions get in the way of their factions win conditions? Also I would feel uneasy if the mafia's decided to just work together through the lovers, I don't see what would stop them and it would make them a lot more powerful of a force to be reckoned with early game.
I'm still considering possible changes. Thank you for your input. I'm going to try an draft a worksheet to tweak their win conditions such that they don't really care who wins, but would prefer it if they weren't siding with mafia.

In the next discussion I will introduce Events. These will drastically affect balance as well, stay tuned.

[Luna]

seems pretty cool but wouldn't the lovers win conditions get in the way of their factions win conditions? Also I would feel uneasy if the mafia's decided to just work together through the lovers, I don't see what would stop them and it would make them a lot more powerful of a force to be reckoned with early game.

This was what confused me, I assume that the Mafia cannot win together. I assume that is why Falsetruth is giving the Lovers more incentive to side with the Town. The Mafia could reveal themselves to each other I suppose... but that's a whole different trust issue, who will backstab the other first? If someone dies does it all come out in a last will? The lovers cannot hope to win by forming any Mafia alliance, but the lovers themselves will know who the other mafia are so this becomes interesting...

Now my biggest concern isn't the Mafia allying, but what is stopping the Lovers from just revealing all the mafia and asking for heals/shields? I know that's not the most sensible idea but I'm almost certain this would happen.

[FalseTruth]

This was what confused me, I assume that the Mafia cannot win together. I assume that is why Falsetruth is giving the Lovers more incentive to side with the Town. The Mafia could reveal themselves to each other I suppose... but that's a whole different trust issue, who will backstab the other first? If someone dies does it all come out in a last will? The lovers cannot hope to win by forming any Mafia alliance, but the lovers themselves will know who the other mafia are so this becomes interesting...

Now my biggest concern isn't the Mafia allying, but what is stopping the Lovers from just revealing all the mafia and asking for heals/shields? I know that's not the most sensible idea but I'm almost certain this would happen.
What makes them so certain that town will be willing to heal them? The mafia will try their very best to kill the lovers ASAP, and that would be a huge risk to take for the lovers considering if one dies, the other dies as well.

I like the discussion that's happening, can we get more people to chime in on the balance and possible solutions? Thanks!

[TheJackofSpades]

The easiest solution, as always, is to just prevent them from revealing that they are lovers.

This ontop of them having to tone back on the super pro-town attitude as it will become obvious who the lovers are if they don't, should hopefully help keep the idea in check without risk of something like that.

Now, spite outings may still be problematic. But you could always just prevent them from doing so in their last will as well. I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that.

[Luna]

What makes them so certain that town will be willing to heal them? The mafia will try their very best to kill the lovers ASAP, and that would be a huge risk to take for the lovers considering if one dies, the other dies as well.

A possible solution would be to make the lovers immune to direct heals (only bus drives, jails if captives are immune, and armour). I mean, I'm sure the lovers would play in the spirit of the game and get up to all sorts of sneaky shenanigans, but as FMVI proved sometimes you have to limit your players to enhance their experience.

Though I look forward to hearing about the Events, you might have something up your sleeves for this king of thing eh?

On a side note... Mafia speaking during the day + lovers communicating adds SO MUCH to the complexities of electing a Mayor and Pardoner. I think it'll be the most exciting day 1 in the history of FM.

[McJesus]

so wait in a 30 person game there are two teams of 5 mafia, thats 10 mafia... a little much don't you think? Also so does the godfather choose what mafia role each person is or what is the specialness of the gf?

[Luna]

The easiest solution, as always, is to just prevent them from revealing that they are lovers.

This ontop of them having to tone back on the super pro-town attitude as it will become obvious who the lovers are if they don't, should hopefully help keep the idea in check without risk of something like that.

Now, spite outings may still be problematic. But you could always just prevent them from doing so in their last will as well. I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that.

That is indeed the logical solution, but it might be difficult to police. It's not like having a definable rule like "The Mafia can only kill one person per night"; how far do you allow the lovers to hint at their roles? What about WIFOM? What happens if the Mafia/Town try to get all their members in night/day chat to say "I am the lover"?

[Luna]

so wait in a 30 person game there are two teams of 5 mafia, thats 10 mafia... a little much don't you think? Also so does the godfather choose what mafia role each person is or what is the specialness of the gf?

10 out of 30, I think that's okay (we don't know if there's cult yet), plus 2 of the mafia aren't fully mafia as it were.

As for the GF, I assume he just retains the right to have the final vote on the kill, and has the last word on who get what mafia role I suppose? Why am I even answering this I'm not hosting!

[TheJackofSpades]

That is indeed the logical solution, but it might be difficult to police. It's not like having a definable rule like "The Mafia can only kill one person per night"; how far do you allow the lovers to hint at their roles? What about WIFOM? What happens if the Mafia/Town try to get all their members in night/day chat to say "I am the lover"?

Umm it's the same idea as people not revealing their secondary objectives in FM7 & FM5. Except in this case you can't reveal them ANYWHERE. It requires no unnecessary balancing, no change to mechanics. Just one simple rule punishable by modkilling.

[McJesus]

Oh well is is possible for the godfather to be the lovers? I think if that is the case there shouldn't be a godfather in the first rate. 10 is a good number however if you add a cult and neutrals 10 gets to be a little bit much.

[TheWaaagh]

I think I already know the answer, but I might as well ask since I don't see it specified in the above rules:

If the lover from one team is sent to kill the lover from the other team, can they opt to just not complete their kill for that night? The same way that the culted mafia in other games could choose not to kill another member of cult if sent by the mafia?

[Luna]

Umm it's the same idea as people not revealing their secondary objectives in FM7 & FM5. Except in this case you can't reveal them ANYWHERE. It requires no unnecessary balancing, no change to mechanics. Just one simple rule punishable by modkilling.

I still think it's easier to just make a lover revealing their role a completely suicidal thing to do, rather than ban any attempt to reveal it. If you make the lover immune to all types of protection and forbid them a last will (it's quite clear they're lovers because of the suicide pact) then that solves it sort of; after all, having someone in each mafia team means that they should be able to divert night kills off the other, but they'd never dare make any sort of reveal.

I say this because I will ask every single person I deem scummy to say "I am one of the lovers" otherwise

[FalseTruth]

I think I already know the answer, but I might as well ask since I don't see it specified in the above rules:

If the lover from one team is sent to kill the lover from the other team, can they opt to just not complete their kill for that night? The same way that the culted mafia in other games could choose not to kill another member of cult if sent by the mafia?
When a player from a mafia team is chosen to do the killing, he has the option of pming me to change that action if he deems it necessary.

[FalseTruth]

Oh well is is possible for the godfather to be the lovers? I think if that is the case there shouldn't be a godfather in the first rate. 10 is a good number however if you add a cult and neutrals 10 gets to be a little bit much.
No, the godfather is the only member that is confirmed non-lover.

[Dust]

http://videotoastertom.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/mcdonalds1.jpeg

[Yayap]

:S You better make this lover thing clear and balanced or it has the potential to be the worst FM.. even worse than FM 4 and 6.

[BorkBot]

The comment from McPwnage made me think about the lover's possibilities with the Cult. If there's a cult present and one of the lovers gets culted, they can reveal their status to their fellow cultists and ask them to recruit their "significant other," which eliminates the difficulty of being on opposing teams. Though going with that is fairly risky for the cult because one death could result in the loss of two cultists.

Is this an intentional part of the game? Or is there even a cult in the game to begin with?

Does a lover have to choose their lover target the first night, or can they do so whenever? If it's the latter, why wouldn't they take the easy route and wait until some neutral is found with which the mafia can win anyway? Or wait until there's only one mafia ally left standing, oust him and attach him/herself to some citizen? Or completely avoid choosing a lover altogether?

[Luna]

May I just add for the record that I love the Cult in big setups and would not be opposed to it in this game.

I really thought Warren was Cult Leader in FMVII after he accused me constantly.

$

[Deathfire123]

Maybe because he couldn't tell which of the 5 roles you were Lionel 8)

[MrSmarter]

This looks like it will be fun, as long as there are no major imbalances.

[Luna]

Maybe because he couldn't tell which of the 5 roles you were Lionel 8)

Nonsense.

I was clearly the Doctor.

[Dust]

Nonsense.

I was clearly the Doctor.
Jestorante*

[Zack]

I like these mafia buffs overall, and would like to propose another...

Mason machanics. When masons die to mismason it is clear that who they visited is scum, there can be 2 alternatives to solve this:

1. When masons die to mismason it will appear just like a normal mafia kill and will not have a special description.

2. Masons will not die when visiting mafia/killers, and instead their target will simply learn of their identities.


I'm not sure what to say to this lover thing, it is an experiment... And yet, i'm worried that they will just out the mafia at some point, there's no stopping them. You could say they are not guranteed a heal, but that won't stop them if already some mafia are dead - they will out the remaining ones to speed the game up.

[Dimwit]

I need some clarification:

The Jets need to kill the Sharks
The Sharks need to kill the Jets

If they stay as two separate factions, how does town win if the Mob factions never merge? If they happen to kill off one faction first, and by chance the Lover is the last to be killed, regardless of how the other mob faction played, they will win automatically and Town loses?

[oops_ur_dead]

Your implementation of lovers is fucking retarded.

Here's how it should be:

The lovers are, for all intents and purposes, members of the Mafia. However, they only win if the other lover is alive. They are as antitown as the other Mafia. The lovers can also control the nightkill for their Mafias if they are the only member of the Mafia. So, if the lovers manage to kill off all the other Mafia, they will effectively be a 2-man Mafia team with the choice of either two nightkills, one nightkill and one ability use, or two ability uses.

This way, we don't have retarded rules on exposing fellow Mafia, since if a lover exposes Mafia members too obviously then they will be lynched by the town, since the lovers are still Mafia and still antitown. This makes things more interesting, since lovers will have to be more covert about exposing Mafia if they choose to do so. This also prevents situations like someone asking a lover "what do you think of x", and the lover not knowing what to say in fear of breaking that rule.

Also, remove that bullshit "HURR MAFIAS CONBINE IF LUVERS DAI" rule. This makes it a viable strategy for godfather to kill off random Mafia members in search for the lover, so that the two Mafias can combine into one giant OP clusterfuck.

[Apocist]

got questions of a role:
for Glad Hand(Jailor) you said
To lock up someone after jailing them, type -lock up "NAME" in the jail chat or in a pm to me. This is essentially the same as killing them. You can jail on no lynch days, but cannot "lock up".When can you 'lock up' someone then?(its worded as if u can never lock them up) and how many times.

[Dimwit]

got questions of a role:
for Glad Hand(Jailor) you said When can you 'lock up' someone then?(its worded as if u can never lock them up) and how many times.

He just means that you can -jail every day but can only lock up (execute) on days with no lynch.

[Apocist]

It states that you 'can jail on (no lynch) days'

[Forum Mafia GM]

I need some clarification:

The Jets need to kill the Sharks
The Sharks need to kill the Jets

If they stay as two separate factions, how does town win if the Mob factions never merge? If they happen to kill off one faction first, and by chance the Lover is the last to be killed, regardless of how the other mob faction played, they will win automatically and Town loses?
Town would lose because they didn't fulfill their win condition. Town has to make sure that they kill off the mafia at equal rates. You can't just indiscriminately kill mafia in this game, making it more important to choose your targets wisely.

Order of deaths matters.

[oops_ur_dead]

Town would lose because they didn't fulfill their win condition. Town has to make sure that they kill off the mafia at equal rates. You can't just indiscriminately kill mafia in this game, making it more important to choose your targets wisely.

Order of deaths matters.

So pretty much, town's win is almost exclusively tied to luck.

Sounds like this FM is gonna be a barrel of fun.

[TheWaaagh]

So pretty much, town's win is almost exclusively tied to luck.

Sounds like this FM is gonna be a barrel of fun.

I feel like the town's goal needs to be as straightforward as possible, otherwise it's just going to turn into FMVI again.

[Dimwit]

Town would lose because they didn't fulfill their win condition. Town has to make sure that they kill off the mafia at equal rates. You can't just indiscriminately kill mafia in this game, making it more important to choose your targets wisely.

Order of deaths matters.

Is it possible to distinguish the two different mobs through investigative means? (being inclusive to all roles that gather intel, not just invests) or will we have to figure it out through day chat?

[BorkBot]

Figuring it out through day chat would be quite impossible if you ask me.

By the way, my earlier question was asked under the assumption that the lovers on the mafia both had to pick a lover target, just like the neutral role. So feel free to ignore that I guess :p

[oops_ur_dead]

I feel like the town's goal needs to be as straightforward as possible, otherwise it's just going to turn into FMVI again.
How is "Kill all mafia, but make sure you kill them at equal rates, and don't kill certain ones" more straightforward than "kill all mafia"

[TheWaaagh]

How is "Kill all mafia, but make sure you kill them at equal rates, and don't kill certain ones" more straightforward than "kill all mafia"

It's not. I was agreeing with you, bud.

[Dimwit]

Figuring it out through day chat would be quite impossible if you ask me.

I completely agree; this is exactly why I asked :)

[Fragos]

You should tell us the choice of availible roles Mafia has. Also, will it be possible to include Fabricator in this setup? The Fabricator, if sent to kill for the Mafia, may make the killing appear to come from another source.

[Muso]

It does seem as though there's a couple of issues.

Now that mafia have a separate daytime chat, town doesn't really have an even semi-reliable way of deducing who's on whose mafia team.

I agree that the town's job should simply be to hunt down the badguys. I don't know how they're supposed to be able to tell which badguy not to kill and which badguy to kill though?

[Zack]

heh, in this setup the mafia will be gunning for each other at night and will essentially ignore the town - since their win condition does not involve killing the town. This is quite diffrent than what we are used to.

[Ubernox]

Looking forward to this. FalseTruth has proven himself, once again, as a connoisseur of Mafia setups.

[Zack]

Oh I just read the rules and stuff, so its not that simple. The lovers are so screwed in this, lol, unless the godfathers die first.

[Ubernox]

You may be right, but I am merely looking forward to seeing what happens in practice, rather than in theory. I mean, look at FMVI. I'm pretty sure no one could have predicted what happened there.

I am really curious to see how quickly a member of the Mafia is voted up as the mayor...

[Dimwit]

Now that mafia have a separate daytime chat, town doesn't really have an even semi-reliable way of deducing who's on whose mafia team.
This^^

So:
Town can't kill one mob faster than the other yet Town has no way of knowing which mob is which
Town can't kill Lovers too soon or they face IMBA-Mob yet there is no way of town finding who the Lover's are; and the Lover's can't say, "Don't lynch me, I'm a Lover" if a sheriff finds them as Mob or else they get mod-killed.

There's too much need-to-know information that cannot be discovered in almost any capacity.

I'm not hating on the set-up, but the current incarnation seems really really IMBA and luck based.

[oops_ur_dead]

It's not. I was agreeing with you, bud.
My bad.

[Auckmid]

I am really curious to see how quickly a member of the Mafia is voted up as the mayor...When reading the rules, I thought that there was only 1 election in the entire game on day 1 before any night actions, and whoever wins the election on the very first day is the mayor for the rest of the game.