Thoughts on vaccine policy?

[oops_ur_dead]

With 3 out of the 4 major candidates in the US election being explicitly or implicitly anti-vax, I was wondering what the educated, high-IQ society that is SC2Mafia thinks about vaccine policy.

Personally, I think (even tho it isn't really an opinion) that vaccines are essential and do a lot of good, but I'm a little apprehensive about allowing the government to administer mandatory medication. I think what's done in Canada is a good compromise, where you aren't allowed access to public services like schooling without having your vaccines up to date. In an ideal world, vaccines would be mandatory, though, but that sets a precedent that may prove to be dangerous.

[Brendan]

With 3 out of the 4 major candidates in the US election being explicitly or implicitly anti-vax, I was wondering what the educated, high-IQ society that is SC2Mafia thinks about vaccine policy.

Personally, I think (even tho it isn't really an opinion) that vaccines are essential and do a lot of good, but I'm a little apprehensive about allowing the government to administer mandatory medication. I think what's done in Canada is a good compromise, where you aren't allowed access to public services like schooling without having your vaccines up to date. In an ideal world, vaccines would be mandatory, though, but that sets a precedent that may prove to be dangerous.

it works the same in the US

[Bunny]

You actually are allowed to deny vaccines and be admitted into Canadian schools. At least in Alberta. I think it's important to let people have choices about vaccines. Their ingredient content is pretty disgusting and you should have a right not to be forced to put that in you or your child's body. We have vaccinated Felix and we're fully vaccinated but I don't think it should be mandatory.

[oops_ur_dead]

it works the same in the US

Nice! :)


You actually are allowed to deny vaccines and be admitted into Canadian schools. At least in Alberta. I think it's important to let people have choices about vaccines. Their ingredient content is pretty disgusting and you should have a right not to be forced to put that in you or your child's body. We have vaccinated Felix and we're fully vaccinated but I don't think it should be mandatory.

I'd agree, if not for the fact that not vaccinating your child puts other children at risk. Given that vaccines have very few, if any, downsides to the child they're administered to, I'm inclined to believe that the injustice/loss of freedom caused by mandatory vaccination is outweighed by the harm that low vaccination rates brings.

[Bunny]

Nice! :)



I'd agree, if not for the fact that not vaccinating your child puts other children at risk. Given that vaccines have very few, if any, downsides to the child they're administered to, I'm inclined to believe that the injustice/loss of freedom caused by mandatory vaccination is outweighed by the harm that low vaccination rates brings.

There are many downsides, well, reactions though for many people. Reviewing vaccine injury lists is so scary! I swear nothing feels worse than jabbing your infant with shots knowing the toxic yuckiness you're putting into them. But so many rely on people being immunized and not spreading disease because they are unable to be vaccinated.

[oops_ur_dead]

There are many downsides, well, reactions though for many people. Reviewing vaccine injury lists is so scary!

I agree, some (a very tiny subset) people do have bad reactions to vaccines. This is precisely why mass vaccinations are necessary; if a kid has such a reaction, they have a legitimate reason to be unvaccinated, but they then rely on everyone else being vaccinated for them to not get sick. It sucks if your kid has a reaction from a vaccine, but it sucks even more if they get a potentially-fatal preventable disease because someone else chose not to vaccinate their kid because of some dumb belief.

[Elixir]

Disclaimer: I'm a medical scientist working in a public hospital.

My state in Australia has recently passed law that vaccines are a requirement to access any childcare, preschool service or to claim parenting benefits from the government unless there is a medical reason certified by a consultant paedetrician to state otherwise (the state government here is actually competent unlike the federal one but I digress). a bunch of religious nuts challenged it in the high court and lost.

vaccinations lower the burden on the health service by a huge margin; even though australia has universal health care and most people just believe it's "free" someone pays for it. A kid being admitted to hospital for treatment of severe whooping cough is on average a 5 day stay at ~1400AU a day plus medications and pathology requests at between 5 and 150 per request... Compare that to a 89$ vaccination (again federally funded so no out of pocket expense). That's just one instance, if there is an outbreak in an antivax book club (this Fucking happened with measles recently) you get to multiply that by 10 and were suddenly hundreds of thousands of dollars out of pocket.

immunocomprimised people exist and mass vaccination protects them under the theory of herd immunity (look it up: tldr diseases can't spread in a population because 99% can't carry it being immune). Reactions also occur but they're normally allergic reactions and you're statistically more likely to be fatally allergic to a peanut than a vaccine.

I believe it should be mandatory in order to maintain a serviceable and sustainable health service. If antivaxxing gets rampant then we're stuck in hospitals monitoring and treating preventable diseases while creating a situation were its possible there isnt a hospital bed for a trauma or something.

This might be a different story in a country that doesn't provide all its citizens federally funded hospital and health care and there is actually a significant cost to the individual if they get ill. The fact that their "choice" ends up costing them, rather than the population, a significant amount of money is probably a reason why they have that choice. In this country however, it's the government and the taxpayer who pays for their stupidity and it's something I won't ever support.

[BananaCucho]

Fuck anti vaxxers

[Yukitaka Oni]

Fuck anti vaxxers


Yolo, make smallpox great again

[Tossangel]

The choice should always remain with the parents (or individual, if adult). The government can educate people, encourage etc but I do not believe it is right for them to make vaccines mandatory. There is a vaccine for everything as of late. Some are not worth the risk.

[Apocist]

The choice should always remain with the parents (or individual, if adult). The government can educate people, encourage etc but I do not believe it is right for them to make vaccines mandatory. There is a vaccine for everything as of late. Some are not worth the risk.

Then isn't a freedom of choice for schools to deny a student if they could be a potential risk for other students?

[Muso]

Disclaimer: I'm a medical scientist working in a public hospital.

My state in Australia has recently passed law that vaccines are a requirement to access any childcare, preschool service or to claim parenting benefits from the government unless there is a medical reason certified by a consultant paedetrician to state otherwise (the state government here is actually competent unlike the federal one but I digress). a bunch of religious nuts challenged it in the high court and lost.

vaccinations lower the burden on the health service by a huge margin; even though australia has universal health care and most people just believe it's "free" someone pays for it. A kid being admitted to hospital for treatment of severe whooping cough is on average a 5 day stay at ~1400AU a day plus medications and pathology requests at between 5 and 150 per request... Compare that to a 89$ vaccination (again federally funded so no out of pocket expense). That's just one instance, if there is an outbreak in an antivax book club (this Fucking happened with measles recently) you get to multiply that by 10 and were suddenly hundreds of thousands of dollars out of pocket.

immunocomprimised people exist and mass vaccination protects them under the theory of herd immunity (look it up: tldr diseases can't spread in a population because 99% can't carry it being immune). Reactions also occur but they're normally allergic reactions and you're statistically more likely to be fatally allergic to a peanut than a vaccine.

I believe it should be mandatory in order to maintain a serviceable and sustainable health service. If antivaxxing gets rampant then we're stuck in hospitals monitoring and treating preventable diseases while creating a situation were its possible there isnt a hospital bed for a trauma or something.

This might be a different story in a country that doesn't provide all its citizens federally funded hospital and health care and there is actually a significant cost to the individual if they get ill. The fact that their "choice" ends up costing them, rather than the population, a significant amount of money is probably a reason why they have that choice. In this country however, it's the government and the taxpayer who pays for their stupidity and it's something I won't ever support.

Disclaimer: I'm a medical doctor in a public hospital.

I agree with everything Elixir wrote. I also believe that any organizations or "professionals" spurting false pseudo-science anti-vaccination nonsense (aka "vaccines cause autism") should be subject to restrictions on their practice, charges of criminal negligence, and widespread condemnation. The amount of made up 'science' I see on facebook from chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths and innocent people who believe their shit truly disturbs me.

[Mateo]

The choice should always remain with the parents (or individual, if adult). The government can educate people, encourage etc but I do not believe it is right for them to make vaccines mandatory. There is a vaccine for everything as of late. Some are not worth the risk.

I DUN CARE HOW MANY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIE TO PREVENTABLE DISEASES CUZ MUH FREEDUMS

why am i not surprised you're a trumptard


Disclaimer: I'm a medical scientist working in a public hospital.

My state in Australia has recently passed law that vaccines are a requirement to access any childcare, preschool service or to claim parenting benefits from the government unless there is a medical reason certified by a consultant paedetrician to state otherwise (the state government here is actually competent unlike the federal one but I digress)


Disclaimer: I'm a medical doctor in a public hospital.

I agree with everything Elixir wrote. I also believe that any organizations or "professionals" spurting false pseudo-science anti-vaccination nonsense (aka "vaccines cause autism") should be subject to restrictions on their practice, charges of criminal negligence, and widespread condemnation. The amount of made up 'science' I see on facebook from chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths and innocent people who believe their shit truly disturbs me.

you two should meet up and play doctor

[Yukitaka Oni]

I DUN CARE HOW MANY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIE TO PREVENTABLE DISEASES CUZ MUH FREEDUMS

why am i not surprised you're a trumptard





you two should meet up and play doctor
Make America cause another war for war-economy again! Not enough freedom b)o.o)^

[Tossangel]

Mateo, when you have a child talk to me about sacrificing your child's life for the greater good.

[oops_ur_dead]

Mateo, when you have a child talk to me about sacrificing your child's life for the greater good.

You don't have to have a child to realize that less than 100 children dying in 10 years from vaccines is better than more than 300 children dying every day from brain swelling and fever, many more getting permanent brain damage, all while suffering a rash like this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/RougeoleDP.jpg/300px-RougeoleDP.jpg

And that's just measles. There's also the tetanus vaccine, which has no reported deaths from adverse reactions, but plenty from the disease itself. About 10-20% of unvaccinated kids who get the disease die like this:
http://www.immunizebc.ca/sites/default/files/disease-photos/tetanus_boy2.jpg

But for some reason, it's okay to drive around with your newborn kid even though the drive home from the hospital had a higher chance of killing them than all the vaccines you'll give them in their life combined.

[Yukitaka Oni]

You don't have to have a child to realize that less than 100 children dying in 10 years from vaccines is better than more than 300 children dying every day from brain swelling and fever, many more getting permanent brain damage, all while suffering a rash like this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/RougeoleDP.jpg/300px-RougeoleDP.jpg

And that's just measles. There's also the tetanus vaccine, which has no reported deaths from adverse reactions, but plenty from the disease itself. About 10-20% of unvaccinated kids die like this:
http://www.immunizebc.ca/sites/default/files/disease-photos/tetanus_boy2.jpg

But for some reason, it's okay to drive around with your newborn kid even though the drive home from the hospital had a higher chance of killing them than all the vaccines you'll give them in their life combined.
True
21469

[Tossangel]

The only vaccines we have declined are Flu and Gardasil. I am thankful to have the right to do so. I believe the risks outweigh the benefits of these.

[Muso]

The only vaccines we have declined are Flu and Gardasil. I am thankful to have the right to do so. I believe the risks outweigh the benefits of these.

I have seen several patients die of cervical cancer but I have never seen a serious adverse reaction to Gardasil.

[Tossangel]

From what I understand, HPV is naturally cleared from the body in approx 90% of cases. The vaccine doesn't cover all strains. Many injuries and deaths have been reported in the US by people who received this vaccine.

[secondpassing]

From what I understand, HPV is naturally cleared from the body in approx 90% of cases. The vaccine doesn't cover all strains. Many injuries and deaths have been reported in the US by people who received this vaccine.

Disclaimer(do I need one?): I am a person studying for the occupation of being a pharmacy technician.

How many is "many"?
This thread had me intrigued about the dangers of vaccinations yet I can only find scientific studies supporting how safe vaccinations are.

True, there are doctors that are for investigating the safety of vaccinations, but even in sites bad mouthing vaccines, the doctors are said to still support using vaccinations.

I'll try to edit this post with supporting evidence later.

[Muso]

From what I understand, HPV is naturally cleared from the body in approx 90% of cases. The vaccine doesn't cover all strains. Many injuries and deaths have been reported in the US by people who received this vaccine.

It's true that the majority of the time HPV is cleared by the body without issues. However, when it's not it can be deadly.

The 4 HPV strains that the vaccine protects against are the 4 strains that most commonly cause cervical cancer (and the far rarer penile cancer).

I am not aware of any significant injuries or deaths rightfully attributed to the Gardasil vaccination.

[Klingoncelt]

The choice should always remain with the parents (or individual, if adult). The government can educate people, encourage etc but I do not believe it is right for them to make vaccines mandatory. There is a vaccine for everything as of late. Some are not worth the risk.


Then isn't a freedom of choice for schools to deny a student if they could be a potential risk for other students?

It's not just schools.

I don't want your kid sitting next to me on a plane.

I don't want your kid in any store I go to, handling the merchandise.

I don't want your kid within a hundred miles of my pregnant friends and relatives, nor any of their newborns, nor any of my elderly friends and family.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Disclaimer(do I need one?): I am a person studying for the occupation of being a pharmacy technician.

How many is "many"?
This thread had me intrigued about the dangers of vaccinations yet I can only find scientific studies supporting how safe vaccinations are.

True, there are doctors that are for investigating the safety of vaccinations, but even in sites bad mouthing vaccines, the doctors are said to still support using vaccinations.

I'll try to edit this post with supporting evidence later.
Some children weaker than the other, which mean their body maybe not either strong enough to handle the vaccine or it may cause shock
Danger yes?!?!?

[oops_ur_dead]

This thread had me intrigued about the dangers of vaccinations yet I can only find scientific studies supporting how safe vaccinations are.


Vaccines are not 100% safe. Nobody really claims they are. However, being vaccinated and risking negative health effects from a vaccine is better than being unvaccinated and risking the disease that the vaccine prevents, unless you have a known pre-existing condition which makes the vaccine unsafe for you.

There is no evidence linking vaccines and autism. All scientific papers which claimed such a correlation have since been retracted. Personal anecdote, such as people claiming that their child developed autism a couple of months after being vaccinated, is invalid because autism is never diagnosed until 18-24 months of age, which happens to be a few months after the first doses of MMR, chickenpox, and Hep A vaccines are given in the US. This is by far the worst argument for being against vaccination.

All vaccines have a small risk of mild adverse reactions. These can be a mild fever, rash, and inflammation around the injection site. Again, these are far less severe than the diseases that the vaccines prevent. Severe reactions result from pre-existing conditions and allergies, such as egg allergies, as vaccines commonly contain egg products. This can cause death in very rare cases. The actual rate is hard to pinpoint, the highest estimate (from an anti-vax organization) is 108 deaths in the past 10 years in the US, with a more reliable government source counting 69 deaths following vaccination in 10 years. That last number makes no statements about the correlation of patient deaths and vaccines; it includes all patients that died for any reason following vaccination, which could very well have been due to a pre-existing congenital disorder or an unrelated cause.

[Mateo]

Mateo, when you have a child talk to me about sacrificing your child's life for the greater good.

LOL yea i dont know about sacrifice

my son "jack" was born 5/7/07. at the time i could barely feed his mother. knowing i would never be able to provide the life he deserved, i contacted gladney center for adoption. we chose a couple named "kevin and nancy". they flew into town, and i handed my son over to them to raise as their own. these are all fake names as the adoption was closed. my son is 9 and a half now, and has a great life. but he doesnt even know i exist, and never will.

but i dont know about sacrifice

you fucktarded conservative republicunts are unbelievable. you spout off about your freedoms as you pass legislature restricting a woman's reproductive rights. then when a mother has a child they cant care for, you want to eliminate federal aid.

you think you're the sole arbiter of morality?

[Tossangel]

Disclaimer(do I need one?):

How many is "many"?


An article I read stated 3,000+ reports of injury and 48+ deaths. They cited the VAERS database. I haven't looked at the VAERS myself to confirm those numbers. You can do so, if you care to get that specific. Yes, I know they are reports and not necessarily proven to be a direct result of the vaccine but that is enough to make me concerned.

[Tossangel]

LOL yea i dont know about sacrifice

my son "jack" was born 5/7/07. at the time i could barely feed his mother. knowing i would never be able to provide the life he deserved, i contacted gladney center for adoption. we chose a couple named "kevin and nancy". they flew into town, and i handed my son over to them to raise as their own. these are all fake names as the adoption was closed. my son is 9 and a half now, and has a great life. but he doesnt even know i exist, and never will.

but i dont know about sacrifice

you fucktarded conservative republicunts are unbelievable. you spout off about your freedoms as you pass legislature restricting a woman's reproductive rights. then when a mother has a child they cant care for, you want to eliminate federal aid.

you think you're the sole arbiter of morality?

No where did I say you don't know about sacrifice. Don't twist my words. I was referring to sacrificing your child's health or life for the herd.

I can't imagine the pain you must feel. Maybe one day your will find each other. There are search registries and other ways birth parents and children successfully find each other on, even when an adoption is closed.

"fucktarded conservative republicunts" Wow, rude much? Anyway, you are right that I do value the life of an unborn child over the right of the parents to kill their baby. That is a whole other topic we wont get into. You are wrong however thinking I don't want to help struggling families. I have in fact spent years working with at-risk children and families.

"you think you're the sole arbiter of morality?" Nope, didn't say that I was.

[Klingoncelt]

Vaccines are not 100% safe. Nobody really claims they are. However, being vaccinated and risking negative health effects from a vaccine is better than being unvaccinated and risking the disease that the vaccine prevents, unless you have a known pre-existing condition which makes the vaccine unsafe for you.

There is no evidence linking vaccines and autism. All scientific papers which claimed such a correlation have since been retracted. Personal anecdote, such as people claiming that their child developed autism a couple of months after being vaccinated, is invalid because autism is never diagnosed until 18-24 months of age, which happens to be a few months after the first doses of MMR, chickenpox, and Hep A vaccines are given in the US. This is by far the worst argument for being against vaccination.

All vaccines have a small risk of mild adverse reactions. These can be a mild fever, rash, and inflammation around the injection site. Again, these are far less severe than the diseases that the vaccines prevent. Severe reactions result from pre-existing conditions and allergies, such as egg allergies, as vaccines commonly contain egg products. This can cause death in very rare cases. The actual rate is hard to pinpoint, the highest estimate (from an anti-vax organization) is 108 deaths in the past 10 years in the US, with a more reliable government source counting 69 deaths following vaccination in 10 years. That last number makes no statements about the correlation of patient deaths and vaccines; it includes all patients that died for any reason following vaccination, which could very well have been due to a pre-existing congenital disorder or an unrelated cause.

I'll add something to this - I react to tetanus shots.


I get very sick for about a week, moderate fever and pain everywhere. I feel awful.

And then I get better and I know what I went through, as much as it sucks, is better than getting actual tetanus.

[Yukitaka Oni]

＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
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[Klingoncelt]

kebab?

[Yukitaka Oni]

kebab?
This is kebab
21492

[Klingoncelt]

:)

[Yukitaka Oni]

:)
And it should be
21493

[PowersThatBe]

No where did I say you don't know about sacrifice. Don't twist my words. I was referring to sacrificing your child's health or life for the herd.


Mateo, when you have a child talk to me about sacrificing your child's life for the greater good.


You implied that he did not have a child, you assumed you knew his situation. You think everyone who has children is going to agree with your position. You also assumed that "vaccines = sacrificing child's life" when in reality by your own admission there is currently a 0.00004325883%
risk of injury, complications or death...and it's not proven to be even linked to vaccines.


An article I read stated 3,000+ reports of injury and 48+ deaths. They cited the VAERS database. I haven't looked at the VAERS myself to confirm those numbers. You can do so, if you care to get that specific. Yes, I know they are reports and not necessarily proven to be a direct result of the vaccine but that is enough to make me concerned.

I got 0.00004325883% because there are currently 73 million children in the US from 0-17. 91% to 95% of those children have been vaccinated for AT LEAST two types of diseases. So I took your 3,000 and divided that by 69,350,000 (which is currently the estimate of children vaccinated at 95% of 73 million). Obviously this number concludes to the number of total children, I could have kept it within the age ranges of vaccine ages, but considering the % rate was in the 90s, it is safe to assume that a majority of these kids in the 69 million were in fact vaccinated at some point in their lives. And vaccines obviously aren't just for babies and small children. http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp


So with that said, the risk of problems is less than 1% -- I think that it's pretty safe. But don't take my word for it.


Also, when you say things like
I was referring to sacrificing your child's health or life for the herd. or
Mateo, when you have a child talk to me about sacrificing your child's life for the greater good.





"you think you're the sole arbiter of morality?" Nope, didn't say that I was.

When you say things like you do above "not sacrificing your child" or "tell me about "sacrificing your child"" sounds like you are trying to gain moral ground. Because you not vaccinating your child is "protecting their life and health" -- you're "choosing" to save your child over the "herd" or the "greater good." It sounds like you're taking a moral position that somehow this is dangerous to your child and it is much better to not "endanger" them by doing the "right thing" and making the decision to "not vaccinate" them because the people who do this are "the herd" or they cant think for themselves.

By making it sound like you're choosing to not "sacrifice" your child, you are doing the moral and just thing. Just like Abraham and Isaac (genesis 22 1-19). Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his son to please god, but didn't go through with it because all god wanted was his obedience.

Do you understand why I brought this comparison? I did so because you equate giving your child a vaccine that has less than 1% chance (based on your numbers) of really doing anything adverse to their health. The health benefits for your child and all children are actually increased if they have the vaccines. However, you equate this with sacrificing your child, or it's health to "benefit" the herd. Well Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his child for the "herd" aka his people. One is a figurative and over blown "sacrifice" because really the downsides are farrrrrr outweighed by the positives (your child not dying like s poor kid in a 3rd world country who doesn't HAVE ACCESS to these drugs.) and the other is literal sacrifice (well it's still a story b/c 95% of the bible is just stories.) So before you compare something to "sacrifice" look up what actual scarification looks like. It's not preventing your child from getting really sick because you're scared something bad could happen.

Abraham was scared of god so he went to literally sacrifice his child, only to be blessed for not doing it. You're not going to "sacrifice your child" because you're scared of the adverse effects, but you could totally end up sacrificing them if they end up with HPV. Food for thought.


Don't mean to sound condescending to you, I'm just trying to educate you that your way of thinking could be very very dangerous.

[Tossangel]

PTB those stats I mentioned pertain to the Gardasil vaccine only. Not all vaccines. That is all I will say bc I am not in the mood to argue today.

[Mesk514]

You implied that he did not have a child, you assumed you knew his situation. You think everyone who has children is going to agree with your position. You also assumed that "vaccines = sacrificing child's life" when in reality by your own admission there is currently a 0.00004325883%
risk of injury, complications or death...and it's not proven to be even linked to vaccines.



I got 0.00004325883% because there are currently 73 million children in the US from 0-17. 91% to 95% of those children have been vaccinated for AT LEAST two types of diseases. So I took your 3,000 and divided that by 69,350,000 (which is currently the estimate of children vaccinated at 95% of 73 million). Obviously this number concludes to the number of total children, I could have kept it within the age ranges of vaccine ages, but considering the % rate was in the 90s, it is safe to assume that a majority of these kids in the 69 million were in fact vaccinated at some point in their lives. And vaccines obviously aren't just for babies and small children. http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp


So with that said, the risk of problems is less than 1% -- I think that it's pretty safe. But don't take my word for it.


Also, when you say things like or




When you say things like you do above "not sacrificing your child" or "tell me about "sacrificing your child"" sounds like you are trying to gain moral ground. Because you not vaccinating your child is "protecting their life and health" -- you're "choosing" to save your child over the "herd" or the "greater good." It sounds like you're taking a moral position that somehow this is dangerous to your child and it is much better to not "endanger" them by doing the "right thing" and making the decision to "not vaccinate" them because the people who do this are "the herd" or they cant think for themselves.

By making it sound like you're choosing to not "sacrifice" your child, you are doing the moral and just thing. Just like Abraham and Isaac (genesis 22 1-19). Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his son to please god, but didn't go through with it because all god wanted was his obedience.

Do you understand why I brought this comparison? I did so because you equate giving your child a vaccine that has less than 1% chance (based on your numbers) of really doing anything adverse to their health. The health benefits for your child and all children are actually increased if they have the vaccines. However, you equate this with sacrificing your child, or it's health to "benefit" the herd. Well Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his child for the "herd" aka his people. One is a figurative and over blown "sacrifice" because really the downsides are farrrrrr outweighed by the positives (your child not dying like s poor kid in a 3rd world country who doesn't HAVE ACCESS to these drugs.) and the other is literal sacrifice (well it's still a story b/c 95% of the bible is just stories.) So before you compare something to "sacrifice" look up what actual scarification looks like. It's not preventing your child from getting really sick because you're scared something bad could happen.

Abraham was scared of god so he went to literally sacrifice his child, only to be blessed for not doing it. You're not going to "sacrifice your child" because you're scared of the adverse effects, but you could totally end up sacrificing them if they end up with HPV. Food for thought.


Don't mean to sound condescending to you, I'm just trying to educate you that your way of thinking could be very very dangerous.

damn yo, how are you gonna talk to Toss like that, she's like the best woman out there....

[Yukitaka Oni]

Ffs guy, nothing is perfect. We only can do our best to save the majority

[oops_ur_dead]

An article I read stated 3,000+ reports of injury and 48+ deaths. They cited the VAERS database. I haven't looked at the VAERS myself to confirm those numbers. You can do so, if you care to get that specific. Yes, I know they are reports and not necessarily proven to be a direct result of the vaccine but that is enough to make me concerned.


PTB those stats I mentioned pertain to the Gardasil vaccine only. Not all vaccines. That is all I will say bc I am not in the mood to argue today.

The problem with citing stats from the VAERS database is that it's a voluntary reporting system with little to no oversight/screening, in addition to it reporting any deaths that happened anytime after a person got vaccinated. If we applied this method to everything, you could argue that coffee is the most dangerous substance known to man because a lot of people die after they drink their morning coffee.

Also, since it's self-reported, a lot of the deaths are things like this (exact quotes I just found in the database):

This spontaneous non-valid report as received from an unknown source via Twitter refers to a patient of unknown age and gender. There was no information about the patient's concurrent conditions, concomitant therapies or medical history provided. On an unknown date, the patient was vaccinated with a dose of GARDASIL (dose, route of administration, lot # and expiration date were not reported). On an unknown date, the patient experienced death (reported as "GARDASIL is killing"). The reporter considered death to be related to GARDASIL. Additional information is not expected as there were no contact details provided.


She passed away.


We called to schedule next set of shots and were informed that patient has died.

And so on. An analysis of VAERS data, specifically regarding Gardasil, was done by a panel of medical doctors. The results are here: http://www.ufrgs.br/boletimcimrs/JAMA%20-%20VACINA%20HPV.pdf

The most pertinent parts are:

Eight of the reports were second-hand reports that could not be verified. Four were manufacturer reports with no identifying information for confirmation or medical review. Twenty of the reports (62.5%) could be verified through clinical review of medical records and autopsy reports. Of these cases, 14 (70%) were after qHPV alone. The other 6 cases reported HPV as well as a variety of other vaccines. Nine cases occurred after dose 1, 5 after dose 2, and 6 after dose 3.

Causes of death included 4 unexplained deaths, 2 cases of diabetic ketoacidosis (1 complicated by pulmonary embolism), 1 case related to prescription drug abuse, 1 case of juvenile amyotropic lateral sclerosis, 1 case of meningoencephalitis (Neisseria meningitidis serogroup B), 1 case of influenza B viral sepsis, 3 cases of pulmonary embolism (1 associated with hyperviscosity due to diabetic ketoacidosis), 6 cardiac-related deaths (4 arrhythmias and 2 cases of myocarditis), and 2 cases due to idiopathic seizure disorder.

[PowersThatBe]

damn yo, how are you gonna talk to Toss like that, she's like the best woman out there....

No shade. I'm sure she's a great person and mother. I just disagree with 95% of her positions on things, and some of her conclusions about how she got there. It is her life to do as she pleases. I was just trying to help her understand why someone like Mateo might respond to her the way he did, given how she presented her arguments.

[Frog]

Just got my flu shot.

Had to in order to sign up to be a care provider for a relative applying for leukemia special treatment.

No ragrets but never done it consistently as it normally makes me sick for a couple weeks.

I'm vaccinated for pretty much everything on the face on the planet with all of the travel I do and due to EU school policies from high school.

Can say my mom got a horrible reaction to yellow fever vaccination that severely sped up auto immune disorders to the point of life threatening degrees. She developed many allergies thereafter including egg. She otherwise is also fully vaccinated but that yellow fever one is a bitch.

Can pretty much say it's awesome knowing I won't die of some random disease and recognize the risks can be extremely severe.

[DarknessB]

Just got my flu shot.

Had to in order to sign up to be a care provider for a relative applying for leukemia special treatment.

No ragrets but never done it consistently as it normally makes me sick for a couple weeks.

I'm vaccinated for pretty much everything on the face on the planet with all of the travel I do and due to EU school policies from high school.

Can say my mom got a horrible reaction to yellow fever vaccination that severely sped up auto immune disorders to the point of life threatening degrees. She developed many allergies thereafter including egg. She otherwise is also fully vaccinated but that yellow fever one is a bitch.

Can pretty much say it's awesome knowing I won't die of some random disease and recognize the risks can be extremely severe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICDzOj1B6iA

[Brendan]

Just got my flu shot.

Had to in order to sign up to be a care provider for a relative applying for leukemia special treatment.

No ragrets but never done it consistently as it normally makes me sick for a couple weeks.

I'm vaccinated for pretty much everything on the face on the planet with all of the travel I do and due to EU school policies from high school.

Can say my mom got a horrible reaction to yellow fever vaccination that severely sped up auto immune disorders to the point of life threatening degrees. She developed many allergies thereafter including egg. She otherwise is also fully vaccinated but that yellow fever one is a bitch.

Can pretty much say it's awesome knowing I won't die of some random disease and recognize the risks can be extremely severe.

Why would you get a vaccination with multiple auto immune disorders? Yellow fever isn't something you need to get vaccinated for unless you're going to a place like Africa lol.

[Cryptonic]

Flu shots making someone sick is a myth.
Everyone should try to get flu shots to protect infants and elderly.


Mandatory vaccines are a hard subject, as I think everyone should have to have them but I do not agree that people shouldn't have control over what goes into their own bodies. The problem with that is that it puts other's at risk by not getting them, and people shouldn't have to life with worry that other's around them are not vaccinated. Maybe if more competition existed in the creation of vaccines, we could get ones created without harmful additives. Or if lawsuits could be held against the companies, they would work harder to find a method that is proven safe.

People who are anti-vaccines are just afraid that they decision they make will directly result in harm to their child. But not vaccinating is also a decision that can directly harm your child and all other children. It's selfish, really.

Vaccines also help hospital wait times and saves Canadians a lot of money, as our medical expenses are covered. It's cheaper and safer for everyone to get vaccinated rather than have everyone have to go to the hospital to get treated after the fact.

[oops_ur_dead]

Flu shots making someone sick is a myth.

You're right that flu shots can't give you the flu. A lot of people do report, though, that they get sick with a fever, aches, sore throat, etc. from being vaccinated. However, a study that compared groups that received either the flu vaccine or a saline injection found no difference between the rates of post-vaccine sickness between these groups, so it's probably placebo.


we could get ones created without harmful additives. Or if lawsuits could be held against the companies, they would work harder to find a method that is proven safe.

Pretty sure that the vaccines we have now are close to the best we can get. The biggest vaccine toxin memes are formaldehyde, mercury, and aluminum. The amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is extremely small. Our bodies produce over 500000 times as much formaldehyde every day than that which is contained in vaccines, and our liver metabolizes 200 times the formaldehyde content in vaccines every minute. A single banana contains 10 times more formaldehyde than the vaccines with the largest formaldehyde content. Mercury compounds in vaccines are probably bad, but the amounts are, again, very low, and even then practically all vaccines no longer contain mercury. Aluminum is present in a lot of foods and materials, and as with formaldehyde, we ingest much more of it on a daily basis than we get from a single vaccine.


People who are anti-vaccines are just afraid that they decision they make will directly result in harm to their child. But not vaccinating is also a decision that can directly harm your child and all other children. It's selfish, really.

I think it's akin to a real-world version of the trolley ethics problem. Just as people are hesitant to "actively" kill someone by pulling the lever, even though it would save five people versus one, people are hesitant to "actively" endanger their child by vaccinating them, despite inaction being far more dangerous.

[Frog]

Why would you get a vaccination with multiple auto immune disorders? Yellow fever isn't something you need to get vaccinated for unless you're going to a place like Africa lol.

Vaccinations are required for varying purposes.

And yeah, kind of goes without saying but I guess needs mentioning again - my family travels frequently.

[Bunny]

Some people really like to try and keep these small amounts out of their teeny babies. Sometimes delaying is a nice option!

[Gerik]

The choice should always remain with the parents (or individual, if adult). The government can educate people, encourage etc but I do not believe it is right for them to make vaccines mandatory.



Anyway, you are right that I do value the life of an unborn child over the right of the parents to kill their baby.

So killing a fetus in the womb is a no-go, but once they're born feel free to leave them and as a result, any other un-vaccinated people they may come into contact with (namely those with a legit reaction/condition that makes vaccination impossible/unsafe) vulnerable to mumps, measles, or any other disease that has been more or less eradicated in the first world?

I'm all for adults having autonomy over their own/their children's bodies (until they're of legal age). Even though I disagree with the choice to not vaccinate children, especially given the mountains of scientific evidence that supports vaccination, I still think it should be your right to make that choice for yourself/your kids. However I don't see how you can argue that people should have autonomy in the case of vaccines, but simultaneously maintain the position that women should not have a say on whether or not to allow something to grow inside them for 9 months.

[deathworlds]

"There are no poisons, only poisonous doses" ~Paracelsus

Most of the scare about vaccinations is that one or more of the chemicals used to distribute vaccinations are harmful; formaldehyde, mercury, and aluminum to name a few. However the amount of these chemicals per dose is so miniscule that it's completely insignificant, your body produces more formaldehyde and aluminum naturally than what is in the syringe of a cocktail of molecules that prevents the spread of deadly disease. I believe that in the U.S. every citizen (with the exceptions of those that are at a health risk, such as: the ill, elderly, and newborns) should receive mandatory vaccinations. There is no scientific evidence that vaccinations are harmful long term, and the spread of the concept of "Herd Immunity" is a slippery slope that can endanger the lives of everyone not vaccinated.

Herd Immunity is the concept that if the majority of children are vaccinated then the few that are not vaccinated should be fine. Anti-vaccers often use Herd Immunity as the only solid excuse to not vaccinate their kids. But, what if a bunch of non-vaccinated kids get together? What if one of them randomly contracts measles from another? Herd Immunity is less effective than it should be because the more people that believe in Herd Immunity, the less effective it is (basic mathematics here).

[oops_ur_dead]

So killing a fetus in the womb is a no-go, but once they're born feel free to leave them and as a result, any other un-vaccinated people they may come into contact with (namely those with a legit reaction/condition that makes vaccination impossible/unsafe) vulnerable to mumps, measles, or any other disease that has been more or less eradicated in the first world?

I'm all for adults having autonomy over their own/their children's bodies (until they're of legal age). Even though I disagree with the choice to not vaccinate children, especially given the mountains of scientific evidence that supports vaccination, I still think it should be your right to make that choice for yourself/your kids. However I don't see how you can argue that people should have autonomy in the case of vaccines, but simultaneously maintain the position that women should not have a say on whether or not to allow something to grow inside them for 9 months.

To be fair, I can see how this doesn't contradict. To pro-life people (not in an insulting way, but this is their viewpoint) a fetus is as much a valid human as a newborn child, usually due to the religious concept of a soul. At that point, abortion isn't an issue of autonomy with relation to women as the fetus is a separate human. Just as people would think that killing a newborn because you don't want a kid anymore is abhorrent, pro-lifers think killing a fetus is equally abhorrent.

[oops_ur_dead]

your body produces more formaldehyde and aluminum naturally than what is in the syringe of a cocktail of molecules that prevents the spread of deadly disease.

Nitpick: our bodies produce formaldehyde, but not aluminum. We do ingest aluminum, however.


Herd Immunity is the concept that if the majority of children are vaccinated then the few that are not vaccinated should be fine. Anti-vaccers often use Herd Immunity as the only solid excuse to not vaccinate their kids. But, what if a bunch of non-vaccinated kids get together? What if one of them randomly contracts measles from another? Herd Immunity is less effective than it should be because the more people that believe in Herd Immunity, the less effective it is (basic mathematics here).

I'm not sure you understand the concept of herd immunity. Herd immunity isn't really an anti-vax idea or a "belief", actually the opposite. Herd immunity is a form of disease prevention that helps limit spread of disease among people who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason. It's when people start to not vaccinate their kids that immunity levels drop below that which supports herd immunity, and it no longer works to prevent disease.

[deathworlds]

I'm not sure you understand the concept of herd immunity. Herd immunity isn't really an anti-vax idea or a "belief", actually the opposite. Herd immunity is a form of disease prevention that helps limit spread of disease among people who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason. It's when people start to not vaccinate their kids that immunity levels drop below that which supports herd immunity, and it no longer works to prevent disease.

This is what I was trying to say, just didn't quite know how to put it.

[Bunny]

"There are no poisons, only poisonous doses" ~Paracelsus

Most of the scare about vaccinations is that one or more of the chemicals used to distribute vaccinations are harmful; formaldehyde, mercury, and aluminum to name a few. However the amount of these chemicals per dose is so miniscule that it's completely insignificant, your body produces more formaldehyde and aluminum naturally than what is in the syringe of a cocktail of molecules that prevents the spread of deadly disease. I believe that in the U.S. every citizen (with the exceptions of those that are at a health risk, such as: the ill, elderly, and newborns) should receive mandatory vaccinations. There is no scientific evidence that vaccinations are harmful long term, and the spread of the concept of "Herd Immunity" is a slippery slope that can endanger the lives of everyone not vaccinated.

Herd Immunity is the concept that if the majority of children are vaccinated then the few that are not vaccinated should be fine. Anti-vaccers often use Herd Immunity as the only solid excuse to not vaccinate their kids. But, what if a bunch of non-vaccinated kids get together? What if one of them randomly contracts measles from another? Herd Immunity is less effective than it should be because the more people that believe in Herd Immunity, the less effective it is (basic mathematics here).

But health workers are vaccinating newborn babies in the hospital in USA before they even get to go home for the first time and treating parents very poorly if they chose not to vaccinate or delay vaccinations or even question vaccines at all. Practically forcing parents into it. I really feel like people should be given more unbiased research and information on vaccines. I remember as a child getting shots and not liking the fact I didn't have a say nor was I given much information into what was going into my body. I think vaccines are important I just really don't like the big Pharms companies and Healthcare workers biased approach to them.

[Gerik]

To be fair, I can see how this doesn't contradict. To pro-life people (not in an insulting way, but this is their viewpoint) a fetus is as much a valid human as a newborn child, usually due to the religious concept of a soul. At that point, abortion isn't an issue of autonomy with relation to women as the fetus is a separate human. Just as people would think that killing a newborn because you don't want a kid anymore is abhorrent, pro-lifers think killing a fetus is equally abhorrent.

I suppose. But even then I think the concept of being "pro-life" is 1) A misnomer. Should just be called anti-abortion. And 2) Backwards thinking because it prioritizes a the possibility of new life over an already existing/healthy life. And if we follow this belief to its logical conclusion to a world where abortion is banned/doesn't exist, a large number of children come into this world unwanted by their parents which doesn't lead to a good upbringing. Not to mention the children that are products of rape/incest or cases where giving birth actually puts the mother's own health at risk.

Plus, if it's about protecting the life, shouldn't you do everything in your power to increase the quantity/quality of the kid's life? Like, say, giving them immunity to a bunch of horrible/life-threatening diseases?

Oh, I guess I should answer your original question of the thread- I am pro-vaccine, but don't think it should be mandated by law or forced on anyone.

That being said, I think that people who opt against it (without a medical reason to do so) are making a terrible choice and should maybe be forced to watch this video (and perhaps some other, more informative videos) first.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

But if they see all the evidence and still choose to ignore it, that is their prerogative, I guess.

[Frog]

In a perfect world,

Where all choices are made for you optimally,

New legislation requires all citizens to be fully vaccinated,

But only 1 company can win this massive contract.

This Summer

Prepare to see how the lowest bidder always wins

And that means corners will be cut

And vaccinations will always be subpar when government mandated

VAXERS
Coming to theaters near you
Summer 2017

[Frog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjA3KNSCEAEe9AK.jpg

[oops_ur_dead]

I suppose. But even then I think the concept of being "pro-life" is 1) A misnomer. Should just be called anti-abortion. And 2) Backwards thinking because it prioritizes a the possibility of new life over an already existing/healthy life. And if we follow this belief to its logical conclusion to a world where abortion is banned/doesn't exist, a large number of children come into this world unwanted by their parents which doesn't lead to a good upbringing. Not to mention the children that are products of rape/incest or cases where giving birth actually puts the mother's own health at risk.

Again, I don't agree with this viewpoint. However, I can see why pro-lifers think that way. It isn't that a fetus is potential life, or whatever. It is, according to them, a full human life, on par with a newborn, a child, or an adult. Just as how you would think that killing a newborn child because its parents do not want it, or it's a product of rape/incest, would be a terrible crime, pro-lifers think the same about fetuses because they assign fetuses the same "value" as they do newborns.

[Gerik]

Again, I don't agree with this viewpoint. However, I can see why pro-lifers think that way. It isn't that a fetus is potential life, or whatever. It is, according to them, a full human life, on par with a newborn, a child, or an adult. Just as how you would think that killing a newborn child because its parents do not want it, or it's a product of rape/incest, would be a terrible crime, pro-lifers think the same about fetuses because they assign fetuses the same "value" as they do newborns.

Yeah, I get that, I guess that was just my way of saying I don't agree with that viewpoint either. I feel as though it's not a human life until it's born. Until then it is closer to a parasite than a human (and thus a "potential human life", which I give lower value/priority than an actual human life), so I feel as though the host of said parasite (its mother) should have the final say on whether or not said parasite (fetus) is welcome to stay.