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Voss
September 22nd, 2016, 05:32 PM
Thinking about implementing prefer. Does 'prefer'ing give the user any information on what's in the game? If so what could be a good system to implement that avoids this?

*I'm thinking of generating the roles list first, then doling out roles based on what's available.

Cryptonic
September 22nd, 2016, 05:37 PM
It does give information. If you prefer something in a game and don't receive that role, it means that the role isn't in the game or that someone else who has prefer got it.

I am kind of against prefer function, tbh lol, so I am biased against it.

Voss
September 22nd, 2016, 05:53 PM
I don't know why I didn't think of that. I was only thinking of not giving a preference to who has more points.

Scrapping this idea then.

Elixir
September 22nd, 2016, 06:05 PM
It does give information. If you prefer something in a game and don't receive that role, it means that the role isn't in the game or that someone else who has prefer got it.



^ this.

blacklist gives a whole lot less information. So if you were going to put any reward system in, the ability to veto a few roles generally can't tell you anything.

Voss
September 22nd, 2016, 06:51 PM
Hmmm, what about only being able to prefer roles that are 100% in game? That wouldn't give any information right? Just that 'someone else with prefer has the role'

DarknessB
September 22nd, 2016, 07:40 PM
Hmmm, what about only being able to prefer roles that are 100% in game? That wouldn't give any information right? Just that 'someone else with prefer has the role'

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with -prefer and many players consider it to be a nice perk which allowing you to play the types of roles you enjoy more than others. If you're really concerned about gaming / information from it, just make it not 100% (even if you're the only person who uses it -- i.e. a thumb on the scale vs. a guarantee of a role from the list) and provide a decent threshold such that more than a couple of players are going to be able to use it per game. You could also force players to prefer at least a couple of roles so the amount of information they get is far more limited.

Cryptonic
September 22nd, 2016, 08:23 PM
Hmmm, what about only being able to prefer roles that are 100% in game? That wouldn't give any information right? Just that 'someone else with prefer has the role'

Like it only works on confirmed roles, not random roles? That would work

DarknessB
September 22nd, 2016, 09:02 PM
Like it only works on confirmed roles, not random roles? That would work

The problem with this is that at least with the mod, most setups use very few, if any, set roles. For example, the classic 9-3-3 is:

Town Government
Town Protective x 2
Town Investigative x 2
Town Power
Town Killing
Town Random x 2
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign

That setup would allow you to prefer only GF, which essentially eliminates the value of prefer. I'd personally go with the non-100% but boosted odds of getting a preferred role. That introduces enough doubt that any information isn't going to be useful.

PLZLEAVEDUCKK
September 22nd, 2016, 09:35 PM
While we are on the subject, can we get a change to the mod's prefer and blacklist function? Possibly limit the max prefer/blacklist to a number such as 5.

There was a recent report where someone got w/e punishment for pm'ing someone at the start of the game because they knew the player always prefer/blacklisted so that they rolled town.

The game has been out for a long time, and there are many games where over 5-6 players have either prefer or blacklist. In most of my personal reports for "hacking" where I pick up on subtle but true "mafia" tells or if I "randomly" pressure all three mafia, it is largely due to this mechanic and not my own skill or luck. If I know for a fact five players are always town, I have a 6/9 chance of randomly selecting a scum. (players with these points are all well known, both in their name selections, and typing style if they default their name). This does not even take into consideration the stupid scumslip mod players do such as day 1 "any leads", "random" "why me" "im not mafia"(based on context is a neutral slip), etc.

tldr: games are sometimes solved by prefer/blacklist. If I prefer you can be 100% confident I am town. It would be like going into a FM where you can pick which role you are. Everyone would know I am town every time, and know I am confirmed without me ever posting.

SuperJack
September 23rd, 2016, 02:43 AM
This is perhaps one of the best things Duck has ever said.

Elixir
September 23rd, 2016, 03:17 AM
As far as I'm aware, there was already s limit of 5 roles on prefer/blacklist. That's how it was intended anyway. If that's not the case it's broken - can't say if it'll get fixed - but it's broken.

SuperJack
September 23rd, 2016, 03:33 AM
As far as I'm aware, there was already s limit of 5 roles on prefer/blacklist. That's how it was intended anyway. If that's not the case it's broken - can't say if it'll get fixed - but it's broken.

Definitely much higher now.

SuperJack
September 23rd, 2016, 03:35 AM
Definitely much higher now.

Or if it isn't, its broken anyway. Because I can confirm what duck said, people blacklist some alignments, and the prefer the opposite. So that some players will 95% of the time role a particular alignment. And after a few games with the same people (Because the community is much smaller now) you cant help but recognise this play.

I myself, have completely stopped using blacklist and prefer. Because you can scum hunt with any role.

Cryptonic
September 23rd, 2016, 07:46 AM
The problem with this is that at least with the mod, most setups use very few, if any, set roles. For example, the classic 9-3-3 is:

Town Government
Town Protective x 2
Town Investigative x 2
Town Power
Town Killing
Town Random x 2
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign

That setup would allow you to prefer only GF, which essentially eliminates the value of prefer. I'd personally go with the non-100% but boosted odds of getting a preferred role. That introduces enough doubt that any information isn't going to be useful.

Prefer is shit anyway, though lol. I feel like it ruins the spirit of Mafia tbh.
If it is going to be put in, 10% increase in change would be OK to me. 25% would be max, imo.

Honestly, I hate having prefer. I always prefer the same roles and never really get any variety. But I have no willpower and can't not prefer those roles.


Plus, it also forces new players without points into playing the "shitty" roles like Doctor, ect, so they don't have as much fun with the game cause they are Doctor 10 games in a row. Then it has the risk of preventing them from playing or telling their friends.

oops_ur_dead
September 25th, 2016, 11:21 AM
The problem with this is that at least with the mod, most setups use very few, if any, set roles. For example, the classic 9-3-3 is:

Town Government
Town Protective x 2
Town Investigative x 2
Town Power
Town Killing
Town Random x 2
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign

That setup would allow you to prefer only GF, which essentially eliminates the value of prefer. I'd personally go with the non-100% but boosted odds of getting a preferred role. That introduces enough doubt that any information isn't going to be useful.

Perhaps in these cases, prefer can be made to be slot-based rather than role-based. For your example, a player would be able to prefer Godfather, or Neutral Evil, or Town Protective or whatever. Then it randoms the role first, and whatever the role is, the player gets it. Not as "rewarding" as preferring a role directly, but still better than nothing.


Prefer is shit anyway, though lol. I feel like it ruins the spirit of Mafia tbh.
If it is going to be put in, 10% increase in change would be OK to me. 25% would be max, imo.

Honestly, I hate having prefer. I always prefer the same roles and never really get any variety. But I have no willpower and can't not prefer those roles.


Plus, it also forces new players without points into playing the "shitty" roles like Doctor, ect, so they don't have as much fun with the game cause they are Doctor 10 games in a row. Then it has the risk of preventing them from playing or telling their friends.

I'm against the idea of a percentage increase in change as well, since it still gives information, albeit less than having a 100% chance of getting the role.

To solve the willpower/new player problem, prefer can be nerfed by only allowing a set amount of prefers a day. For instance, only being able to prefer 1 time every 24 hours. Maybe having a higher number of points will give you more frequent prefers.

Voss
September 27th, 2016, 02:19 PM
Town Government
Town Protective x 2
Town Investigative x 2
Town Power
Town Killing
Town Random x 2
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign


So I think there are 4 things that can happen:

I prefer, and get Doctor (no information, because I got what I preferred)
I prefer, and don't get Doctor (either someone else has it, or it wasn't generated)
I don't prefer, and get Doctor(no information because I didn't use prefer)
I don't prefer, and don't get Doctor (someone else could have it, or it's not in the game at all).

How does prefer give information again? This isn't addressing the downside that someone brought up of noobs getting shitty roles.

Cryptonic
September 27th, 2016, 02:33 PM
If I prefer doctor, don't get it, someone claims it, no one else has enough points. Confirms he is not doctor.

Voss
September 27th, 2016, 02:40 PM
If I prefer doctor, don't get it, someone claims it, no one else has enough points. Confirms he is not doctor.

oh that's if it's connected to points at all.

Voss
September 27th, 2016, 02:44 PM
if everyone has 1 'stock' prefer a day, then you can't justify that reasoning.

I'm not going to focus putting that in right now, but from a meta-gameplay perspective... there's no extra info in preferring, if everyone can do it.

DarknessB
September 27th, 2016, 02:44 PM
oh that's if it's connected to points at all.

Sure, there's also the option of putting a thumb on the scale with Prefer (higher chance of rolling it), but not an outright guaranteed roll of Doctor if you use prefer (i.e. even if no one else uses it). At that point, people can just start WIFOMing out the possibilities, but it doesn't tell them that much.

DarknessB
September 27th, 2016, 02:46 PM
if everyone has 1 'stock' prefer a day, then you can't justify that reasoning.

I'm not going to focus putting that in right now, but from a meta-gameplay perspective... there's no extra info in preferring, if everyone can do it.

The evil Darkness (or Voss) would monetize prefer and sell charges to people, but probably against the spirit of what you're doing. I tend to think the probability approach is better than the limit per day approach, which could be annoying to people who play a lot and who should be encouraged to do so to get the game numbers up.

Voss
September 27th, 2016, 02:49 PM
The evil Darkness (or Voss) would monetize prefer and sell charges to people, but probably against the spirit of what you're doing. I tend to think the probability approach is better than the limit per day approach, which could be annoying to people who play a lot and who should be encouraged to do so to get the game numbers up.

yeah, I definitely see how introducing prefer could impact people who play a lot, and motivation, so the actual allowed use cases should probably be revisited at some point. I was just asking on if there's any extra info on playing with prefer.

Cryptonic
September 27th, 2016, 07:02 PM
oh that's if it's connected to points at all.

Yea, I'm more talking about SC2 when I'm voicing my thoughts lol.

If everyone always has access to prefer, then I don't see a problem.

Voss
September 27th, 2016, 11:29 PM
maybe... citizen points? whenever you roll citizen, and play until you die, you get a 'prefer' point to be used later on?

oops_ur_dead
September 28th, 2016, 12:35 PM
yeah, I definitely see how introducing prefer could impact people who play a lot, and motivation, so the actual allowed use cases should probably be revisited at some point. I was just asking on if there's any extra info on playing with prefer.

Player X prefers doctor and doesn't get it. At the end of the game roles are revealed and Player Y got doctor. Now Player X knows Player Y used their prefer for the day (or however long it takes to get a new prefer). Next game, Player X prefers doctor and doesn't get it. Either there is no doctor, or someone else preferred doctor and got it. Either way, Player X confirms that Player Y isn't doctor.

In general there could be quite a bit of meta surrounding prefer which wouldn't be good for the health of the game, IMO.

SuperJack
September 28th, 2016, 12:36 PM
Just get rid of any Prefer. Problem solved. People love hats more.

Voss
September 28th, 2016, 12:52 PM
Player X prefers doctor and doesn't get it. At the end of the game roles are revealed and Player Y got doctor. Now Player X knows Player Y used their prefer for the day (or however long it takes to get a new prefer). Next game, Player X prefers doctor and doesn't get it. Either there is no doctor, or someone else preferred doctor and got it. Either way, Player X confirms that Player Y isn't doctor.

In general there could be quite a bit of meta surrounding prefer which wouldn't be good for the health of the game, IMO.

assuming the only way you can get prefer is a once per day thing.

i'm sure there's a way that prefer can be doled out so that it gives 0 meta.

Voss
September 28th, 2016, 12:55 PM
Just get rid of any Prefer. Problem solved. People love hats more.

there's 0 art in game play unfortunately, as I'm not an artist.

oops_ur_dead
September 28th, 2016, 01:48 PM
assuming the only way you can get prefer is a once per day thing.

i'm sure there's a way that prefer can be doled out so that it gives 0 meta.

The best way is probably to have a small boost in odds (10% or so), and have it apply for every game. Maybe to prevent any sort of weird abuse or meta, make it so you can only change the role you're preferring once per day.

Cryptonic
September 28th, 2016, 02:22 PM
My #1 choice would be to have no prefer.
#2 would be to have a low chance, 10-25%, of successfully getting it.

SuperJack
September 28th, 2016, 03:15 PM
The best way is probably to have a small boost in odds (10% or so), and have it apply for every game. Maybe to prevent any sort of weird abuse or meta, make it so you can only change the role you're preferring once per day.

Have a range between 0% - 25%

You can earn all the way up to 25.
Can be earned by many ways: Achivements, Time played, Games Completed, "Donations" (to skip the earn)