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FalseTruth
December 5th, 2011, 08:33 PM
This will be a Part 1 of a three part series regarding balance for FM VIII

I see time and time again that the most of the mistakes that arise when we host Forum Mafia are because of lack of community interaction regarding balance. I hope this will serve as a good, healthy discussion so that we can all enjoy FM VIII.

I want this FM to be less about night actions and more about discussion. More deception, less luck. All the changes to standard FM gameplay reflect this desire of mine from roles to mechanics. If anything seems unbalanced, please let me know because I know I can always make mistakes.

Please comment and voice your thoughts.

Game Mechanics Changes:

The game will start at night but with no night actions. Mafia players will be given time to plan for the day and collaborate to come up with potential strategies.

Day 1 will be unlike any other you have seen before. Everyone will be able to vote for two electable positions and voting is mandatory. If you do not vote you will be eliminated from the game and balance will be adjusted accordingly. Whoever gains these two positions gains abilities separate from their given abilities. The downside to this is that mafia can also potentially be elected if town does not elect one of their own.

The Mayor will be like the traditional FM Mayor with a twist. He will have ~5 votes depending on players but will also have the ability to declare any given Day a Double Lynch Day(One time use). If he does so, town can potentially lynch two people and have the option to vote for two people for that day. If a second person is not lynched that day, then the ability will be wasted. Mayor will also be healable considering he will be revealed from Day 1.

The Pardoner has the ability to pardon any lynch subject and prevent them from getting lynched. Note: He can also pardon himself. This ability is a one-time use. If a Mafia member gets their hands on this role, town will be in a lot of trouble.

Potential Problems that may arise:

Scenario 1: Town derps majorly and elects a Mafia as Mayor.
-If town does this, I feel as though they deserve to lose for sucking so much. Frankly they have majority and it is within their capabilities to choose an appropriate Mayor.

Scenario 2: Town half-derps and elects a Mafia as Pardoner.
-Whatever, it's not like it's an unrecoverable position. It only seems like it would be a relatively small setback in the grand scheme of things.

Scenario 3: Town is a BAMF and elects Townies for both Mayor and Pardoner.
-Well then, good for them. I am buffing Mafia quite a bit this time around, so I don't think this outcome would guaruntee a win for town in the slightest. Be prepared for massive amounts of mindfuck (in a good way).

That's all for now. Please give me any suggestions about this idea for refinement. I will consider all of them.

vornksr
December 5th, 2011, 08:39 PM
<3

It's an interesting idea, but tbh I'm not sure how town's going to have anything working in their favor on Day 1 that would help them make good decisions. But I love the idea in general.

TheWaaagh
December 5th, 2011, 08:42 PM
The only problem I see with this is that it seems like the votes should take place on day 2. That way people can actually come forward with information to be seen as a town role.

Day 1 town doesn't know who anyone else is, so the logic that they have majority and should be able to pick someone from their own group is kind of flawed. Unless you're just talking from a purely statistical point of view, but then that wouldn't really be overcoming the "luck" aspect.

Other than that I like the idea that the mayor is an elected position and not just randomly given to someone who can fuck the whole game over.

A few questions though:

1) You said the Mayor's ability could be wasted, so I'm assuming the double lynch thing is a one time deal, but you also said it could be done at any time, so I might as well just clarify: double lynch is a one time deal right?

2) Is the pardoner's ability a one time deal too, or can that happen as many times as the corrupt bastard wants?

3) Even though everyone must vote, what happens if a majority can't be reached? Do you as the GM break the tie, or do we hold a vote each day until someone gets elected?

4) Similar question, but if the Mayor/Pardoner are killed at night, do their positions get put back up to be re-elected?

vornksr
December 5th, 2011, 08:51 PM
Btw, I just realized that I was assuming something that you didn't state:

Are the votes anonymous? Because if they are, then there's the added interest of the town not knowing who won the vote, and therefore the mayor & pardoner can still wait to reveal when it's most useful.

TheWaaagh
December 5th, 2011, 08:53 PM
Btw, I just realized that I was assuming something that you didn't state:

Are the votes anonymous? Because if they are, then there's the added interest of the town not knowing who won the vote, and therefore the mayor & pardoner can still wait to reveal when it's most useful.

I hope not, if the votes are anonymous it would be almost guaranteed that one of the two mafias (I'm assuming there'd be two like the other games) would get someone into a position of power, especially since the night before they'd just agree on who they'd all collectively vote for.

FalseTruth
December 5th, 2011, 08:59 PM
Btw, I just realized that I was assuming something that you didn't state:

Are the votes anonymous? Because if they are, then there's the added interest of the town not knowing who won the vote, and therefore the mayor & pardoner can still wait to reveal when it's most useful.
No, that would hurt town immensely. Mafia needs to be worried that people will track their voting patterns so that they do not all vote for the same teammate.

Guardian
December 5th, 2011, 09:04 PM
great idea.
maybe the votes could be based on how many people voted on the elected mayor
i.e 18 ppl voted for mayor: X
X gets 18/4 rounded up=5 votes?
perhaps he could lose votes when the town gets smaller...
dunno, just throwing ideas around...

FalseTruth
December 5th, 2011, 09:07 PM
The only problem I see with this is that it seems like the votes should take place on day 2. That way people can actually come forward with information to be seen as a town role.

No, not going do that. That would make town way too powerful if town power roles could prove their roles and get elected. I prefer mystery and deception. The possibility and threat of a Mafia Mayor is something all townies should fear. Honestly, it won't be too difficult to figure out who's a good candidate for mayor if it plays out how I plan it to.

1)Yes
2)Yes
3)I will extend day until someone switches their vote. I don't see that as a huge problem.
4)Nope

TheWaaagh
December 5th, 2011, 09:19 PM
One thing you might want to keep in mind when designing this though, is that the most recent FM was essentially your goal: less night actions (due to humanity having limited charges on everything), and more discussion, for the first few days. And it doesn't seem like people were really interested in that.

I'm not saying it can't be done, just remember that night actions are still an important part of the fun factor. You can only ramble for so long before people start getting bored.

Deathfire123
December 5th, 2011, 09:27 PM
One thing you might want to keep in mind when designing this though, is that the most recent FM was essentially your goal: less night actions (due to humanity having limited charges on everything), and more discussion, for the first few days. And it doesn't seem like people were really interested in that.

I'm not saying it can't be done, just remember that night actions are still an important part of the fun factor. You can only ramble for so long before people start getting bored.

the problem isnt the discussion its that a nuetral group is the majority

Deathfire123
December 5th, 2011, 09:35 PM
Also, read my suggestion in the Vet board False

Nick
December 5th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Day1 events that greatly influence the whole game? Seemed to me like a make or break Day1?

I'm not that bright. I will just look at the betting chances, close my eyes and hope for the best. I will vote for the bandwagoner - the most easily manipulable Mayor and Pardoner!

Will it be anonymous?

FalseTruth
December 5th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Will it be anonymous?
Yes, and there will be a limit on players.

Capitalier
December 5th, 2011, 11:05 PM
Yes, and there will be a limit on players.
Then it sounds pretty good -- if it wasn't anonymous, we could have something crazy like scum Yayap going hogwild.

TheJackofSpades
December 5th, 2011, 11:33 PM
Yes, and there will be a limit on players.
Damn you. Well, I still elect myself as Emperor Mayor for Life.

Fragos
December 5th, 2011, 11:37 PM
Well, the new Mayor will be probably checked by investigative roles at night, so if Mafia tries to put a person into that position, it will be probably detection-immune Godfather and not the regular Mafia role. Same thing with Pardoner - it is less risky to take a Pardoner position for Mafia rather than Mayor.

So in theory, most of the time it would be either a town role, or leading scum role with some kind of detection immunity.

FalseTruth
December 5th, 2011, 11:38 PM
Well, the new Mayor will be probably checked by investigative roles at night, so if Mafia tries to put a person into that position, it will be probably detection-immune Godfather and not the regular Mafia role. Same thing with Pardoner - it is less risky to take a Pardoner position for Mafia rather than Mayor.

So in theory, most of the time it would be either a town role, or leading scum role with some kind of detection immunity.
Yes, exactly. Which is why I'm not too worried that Mafia will destroy the game for town if they get those roles.

Ganondorf
December 5th, 2011, 11:44 PM
Would it be possible for one person to be elected to both roles? Also, can you vote for yourself?

FalseTruth
December 6th, 2011, 12:17 AM
Would it be possible for one person to be elected to both roles? Also, can you vote for yourself?
No,no

Nick
December 6th, 2011, 01:14 AM
It works both ways - framer. And then we have lookouts... bla bla.

Anyway, we can't discuss much about balance if we do not know how significant Mayor and Pardoner will be in game. Are you planning it to be a main event for power struggle?

Luna
December 6th, 2011, 04:45 AM
A very cool idea in general. Basically TheWaaagh raised the only concern I had - it's still pretty much a luck thing at the end of the day. I suppose semi-lurkers and massive trolls won't get voted in but I can just envisage some people getting very aggressive when they realise this is just a popularity vote based on personality and no one's voting for them because us idiots can't understand their scheming :P

But yeah in an anonymous atmosphere in a more normal town vs. mafia setup I can see this being a cool and unique twist. As a standalone mechanic in a completely bog-standard game of Mafia I think it's just about balanced as well as it can be (aside from the fact that we haven't had a Mafia win yet and this will probably help Town more). Interested to hear more about this FM now, I hope you're ready to go soon? Everyone understands it's time-consuming but I think I speak for most when I say we'd like to see this one start up almost immediately, especially if it begins at night with no action :)

Ganondorf
December 6th, 2011, 12:39 PM
I think that this idea might benefit from a few tweaks, but I'm all for giving it a try. Heck yeah variety!

Capitalier
December 8th, 2011, 01:14 PM
This will be a cult free game, correct? 8)

Zack
December 8th, 2011, 01:44 PM
This seems like an interesting experiment, new things are always exciting, heh

Jester elected for pardoner! Executioner elected for mayor! lol, that would be quite amusing.

Is there going to be one mafia or two? In my opinion this particular setup should have only 1 mafia, but with a disguiser or two.

An arsonist over a serial killer as well I should say... If you intend to include a neutral killer that is.

And, perhaps in this game of emphasys on discussion and planning.. You will add the Tormentor role that I have suggested? He'd fit right in..

Ganondorf
December 8th, 2011, 02:50 PM
I dunno why, but I've always preferred the arsonist over the serial killer.... maybe its because of the unpredictability of it. I love how everything can seem fine for the town, but a wild arsonist can show up and burn the mayor, sheriff, doctor, and vigilante all at once....

Luna
December 8th, 2011, 02:53 PM
I've always had a soft spot for the Arsonist as well ^^

In this game it would be awesome, if targets weren't notified that they were doused. All that discussion, needing to remain hidden and uninvestigated, people wondering if there even is a neutral killer, roleblockers and doctors thinking they'd prevented kills... and then BOOM.

Ganondorf
December 8th, 2011, 03:34 PM
I've always had a soft spot for the Arsonist as well ^^

In this game it would be awesome, if targets weren't notified that they were doused. All that discussion, needing to remain hidden and uninvestigated, people wondering if there even is a neutral killer, roleblockers and doctors thinking they'd prevented kills... and then BOOM.

I enjoy games in SC2 mafia (not for balance, but for fun) where you have a random neutral. No kills happen for awhile, and people begin to assume that the neutral must be a jester/executioner/survivor, and then BAM: "many perished tonight" :D <(-.-)>

Luna
December 8th, 2011, 03:37 PM
I enjoy games in SC2 mafia (not for balance, but for fun) where you have a random neutral. No kills happen for awhile, and people begin to assume that the neutral must be a jester/executioner/survivor, and then BAM: "many perished tonight" :D <(-.-)>

Or those games where there are a couple of random neutrals, and you're an arsonist, and one night you decide to ignite and somehow most of the lobby dies leaving just you and the other arsonist high-fiving each other at the end :D

Dust
December 16th, 2011, 04:00 PM
Bumping this because sign ups have started and it would be good to reread all this

Luna
December 16th, 2011, 04:04 PM
Bumping this because sign ups have started and it would be good to reread all this

Especially since we just went through all this in M-FMII.

A wild mass role-claim appeared! It was super ineffective!

xD

FalseTruth
December 16th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Especially since we just went through all this in M-FMII.

A wild mass role-claim appeared! It was super ineffective!

xD
It would be wise to note that the size of the setup and the level of intelligence of players and the host actually matters when determining a setup.

Luna
December 16th, 2011, 04:14 PM
Aye I know, I'm looking forward to this gonna be awesome (especially if we get anonymous accounts). I know the size and playstyle of the people involved will rule out mass-claim, I'm just drawing your attention to the fact that Fragos tested out the premise :)

TheJackofSpades
December 16th, 2011, 04:27 PM
It's alright. I plan on revealing my identity day 1 and being elected simply on this premise. It will benefit the town greatly to throw their support behind me ahead of time, which will prevent unnecessary mass roleclaims.

Auckmid
December 16th, 2011, 04:59 PM
If you want the game to be more skill based, then maybe...

1) Longer days
2) Less investigative roles, more citizens (But make more town to componsate)
3) First lynch oppotunity before first kill opportuity

I find that it can be just as fun to be a citizen as a PR if lynches quite often end up being based on suspicions and reads, and an individual citizen can end up being just as valuable as a cop in the day chat. I find it is much less fun to be a citizen if lynches always end up being dictated by the PRs, and for the most part, your only responsibility is to make sure that the town keeps its majority. The reason I often dont immediately vote with the main wagon as a citizen is because its incredibly boring just trying to find which PR you trust the most, then voting with them above trying to actualy accomplish something by yourself.

TheJackofSpades
December 16th, 2011, 05:11 PM
1)Longer days


Longer days is actually a detraction of skill. Skill can be found in being able to achieve multiple goals and analyze large amounts of data in a short amount of time.

Anyone can figure out a lie if given 5 days to do so, in comparison to one.

Luna
December 16th, 2011, 05:17 PM
I was really happy with how the 24 hour days worked in M-FMI, even across multiple time zones, even in a big game designed specifically for intricate gameplay I think 48 hours is more than enough. People love to play FM, but it can easily get boring (especially if you don't have a night chat, and even then there's a limited amount you can say in a night chat).

Let's face it, the part most of us look forward to is getting that Rolecard PM xD

Luna
December 16th, 2011, 05:18 PM
I don't know why I have a pathological need to infest this thread with my posting, come on day 2 of M-FMII already