7 of my friends changed gender today

[RLVG]

Norway has this new law today that anyone can change gender without medical treatment and psychologic evaluation.

So today seven of my friends changed gender.



REAL LIFE DISGUISERS EVERYWHERE



http://i.imgur.com/10gvO.gif

[BananaCucho]

Norway has this new law today that anyone can change gender without medical treatment and psychologic evaluation.

So today seven of my friends changed gender.



REAL LIFE DISGUISERS EVERYWHERE



http://i.imgur.com/10gvO.gif

But were they closeted or did you know?

Anyway, good for them!

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

As in if I lived in Norway, I could just file that I believe I am actually a female, and that is that?

Does this mean males can claim to be female and enter female sports competitions, facilities, etc.?

Assuming this is a real law?

[RLVG]

But were they closeted or did you know?

Anyway, good for them!

I knew only two of them being dysphoric, the other five were closeted.

When presented the opporturnity, they'll take it. So... There's probably tens of thousands who changed gender on this very day.

[RLVG]

As in if I lived in Norway, I could just file that I believe I am actually a female, and that is that?

Does this mean males can claim to be female and enter female sports competitions, facilities, etc.?

Assuming this is a real law?

Yes, it's that simple.
It's going to be real hell though when "men" suddenly enters female lockers, bathrooms and et cetera though.

It's a real law that's become active / launched today. (http://www.tv2.no/a/8349011/)

[deathworlds]

Yes, it's that simple.
It's going to be real hell though when "men" suddenly enters female lockers, bathrooms and et cetera though.

It's a real law that's become active / launched today. (http://www.tv2.no/a/8349011/)

This is a huge topic of debate in the U.S., for that reason.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Yes, it's that simple.
It's going to be real hell though when "men" suddenly enters female lockers, bathrooms and et cetera though.

It's a real law that's become active / launched today. (http://www.tv2.no/a/8349011/)

That is the problem I have. If we look at topics like gay marriage, it only involves those people so who cares what they do, it does not involve anyone else. This law will make females very uncomfortable in public places such as locker rooms, or restrooms. Sports could be affected. The average male lifter would be an instant elite level powerlifter, mma would be obviously bad, etc.

[secondpassing]

That is scary.

[ThePaladin]

Yes, it's that simple.
It's going to be real hell though when "men" suddenly enters female lockers, bathrooms and et cetera though.

It's a real law that's become active / launched today. (http://www.tv2.no/a/8349011/)

I'm not familar with Norwegian legal code, so...

Was their a previous law that did recognize people's changed gender who changed genders but only for those who underwent the medical procedure?

From what I've seen, most people who psychologically think they are the other gender actually end up going through the procedure(if it is available and affordable to them) rather than the new androgynous" and spur of the moment gender-identity shifts caused by gender role responsibilities, depression, etc.

[RLVG]

I'm not familar with Norwegian legal code, so...

Was their a previous law that did recognize people's changed gender who changed genders but only for those who underwent the medical procedure?

From what I've seen, most people who psychologically think they are the other gender actually end up going through the procedure(if it is available and affordable to them) rather than the new androgynous" and spur of the moment gender-identity shifts caused by gender role responsibilities, depression, etc.

Before you were required to be psychologically evaluated for 2 years, with you "being the correct role" full-time for those two years, for the doctors to tell you if they're "convinced" or if they tell you to quit and not bother. Those with Aspergers / Autism had to wait an average of 5 years.

After that, you could finaly get medical treatment that would take a minimum of 2 years before surgery were an option, this surgery enabled the legal change.

So "normal" people are 4 years without having their genders changed, "non normal" people 7 to 10 years.

This gave Norway an extremely bad reputation on this field because the "Theory" are outdated by the 50s, only 3 persons back in Oslo are making the decision and they're doing stereotyping too literal that it's a plain joke.

That's the reason for this new law - skip the process and get the legal stuff worked on right away, but personally I think the new law is just too open. Why should minors get this without psychologic evaluation?
I understand adults who can make proper decisions by themselves however.

[Ash]

This is stupid. Psychological evaluation or not, no one should be allowed to change genders. Why are we patting transexuals on the back and saying it's okay to have a mental illness instead of trying to help them change their ways?

[Apocist]

why are people trying to hinder the closing of the gender gap? the fact that we have to split the human race in half due to a binary variable is stupid in the first place.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Yuki does not accept tran-gender v(x.o(<
Yuki believe everyone should live true to their gene v)x.o)>

[Apocist]

Yuki does not accept tran-gender v(x.o(<
Yuki believe everyone should live true to their gene v)x.o)>

what if you were born incorrectly?

[ThePaladin]

why are people trying to hinder the closing of the gender gap? the fact that we have to split the human race in half due to a binary variable is stupid in the first place.

From a biological standpoint "splitting" the human race in half based on sex is and was necessary for reproduction and survival, Just like how any other species typically recognizes the difference in sex

Should both halves be considered equal, yes.

But any 2 people in a relationship probably would think its awkward to not recognize each others genders lol

[Yukitaka Oni]

what if you were born incorrectly?
The word: deal with it exist for a reason v(x.o(<

[Apocist]

The word: deal with it exist for a reason v(x.o(<

thus, they are dealing with it :3

[Yukitaka Oni]

thus, they are dealing with it :3

Eh. To be honest I'm not allow to agree on any side v(o.o)>
To keep the Classic humanity i need to disagree with trans-gender
To keep the human from being discriminated by difference gender i need to agree
-----> both is good and bad

[Fatalis]

--

[Mathmatical]

I would never change gender 0-0

[Orpz]

Since life evolved with the basis of reproduction, I would argue that LGBT is considered an illness that we shouldn't support. Sure, we shouldn't administer chemical castrasion or anything even near it, but any move that promotes LGBT is just bad.

Nature isn't necessarily something to always be emulated.

[ThePaladin]

Since life evolved with the basis of reproduction, I would argue that LGBT is considered an illness that we shouldn't support. Sure, we shouldn't administer chemical castrasion or anything even near it, but any move that promotes LGBT is just bad.

Fromthis perspective/logic we can argue that relationships incolving an infertile person is bad or even relationships in which they dont want to have kids is bad

Also there are homosexual relationships in nature

The whole lgbt movement isnt as much as promoting(exluding some people) homosexuality as it is believing that one type of relationship shouldnt be a le to have better rights than another
If heterosexual marriage didnt give benefits such as on taxes in most countries and it wasnt seen as a crime(in soem countries) or be criticized/bullied to the point of driving people to suicide then it wouldnt be nearly as much as an issue

[Fatalis]

--

[yzb25]

I never understood the need of some of these people to be *completely* acknowledged under the law, even in areas where it will be more of a hindrance to their life than a benefit.

The girl's changing room example probably isn't happening in Norway, but let's suppose it was - Why on earth, as a male-to-female trans., do I care so much about getting to go to the girl's changing room? I have used the boy's my entire life, and am likely more comfortable when I'm in the boy's. Frankly, the only reason to get changed in the girl's and make the girls uncomfortable is just so I don't have to deal with the [I]implication that someone has rejected my female gender. But so what? Big fucking deal. I know internally I'm a girl anyway.

The same goes with gay marriage. Most of the developed countries that rejected gay marriage still offered civil partnerships - which seemed to be legally nearly the exact same, just a different word so as not to piss off christians by stealing and misusing their ritual. Yet, all these gay pride movements hardcore-campaigned over an implication of not being a "true marriage".

Caring so much about the implication is moronic for obvious reasons. Maybe it just gives them something to bitch about, but it's still a waste of time, pretty much. Of course, the girls squeeling at the sight of a naked man (a completely natural phenomenon) just because they're conditioned to think "no clothes = sex" are just as moronic, and the christians throwing a hissy fit because gay people like their ritual are also just as moronic.

People try to make this into a far grander issue than it is. "The trannies are taking over! If we send the wrong message babies will stop coming by next generation!" or "The right wing scum are regularly beating LGBTs to death and sucking their blood! We must have gay marriage!". Though it's true sometimes there's an isolated incident of something terrible happening on one side like a 14 year old getting pressured into changing gender and then killing themselves, or homophobes putting a homosexual through therapy that makes them kill themselves, this issue is still really insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately, it just seems everyone needs to grow the fuck up.

[FYRE]

The cogent issue is whether or not gender fluid people can change back to what gender they feel they are on that day. If not then the same problems will continue to arise.

[Ash]

what if you were born incorrectly?
How do you know if you were born incorrectly?

[ThePaladin]

@yzb

Civil unions dont give all the benefits of marriage
One key issue is that you can gain citize,ship through marriage but not civil unions in almost all countries that have a civil union but disallow gay marriage

[BananaCucho]

So much ignorance in this thread. A lot of comments from people who have no idea what they're talking about. Ffs.

[BananaCucho]

Fromthis perspective/logic we can argue that relationships incolving an infertile person is bad or even relationships in which they dont want to have kids is bad

Also there are homosexual relationships in nature

The whole lgbt movement isnt as much as promoting(exluding some people) homosexuality as it is believing that one type of relationship shouldnt be a le to have better rights than another
If heterosexual marriage didnt give benefits such as on taxes in most countries and it wasnt seen as a crime(in soem countries) or be criticized/bullied to the point of driving people to suicide then it wouldnt be nearly as much as an issue

I actually agree with Paladin on something. This is a weird feeling.

[Cryptonic]

So much ignorance in this thread. A lot of comments from people who have no idea what they're talking about. Ffs.

Lol I didn't know the site had so many bigots.

Why do people give a shit about how other people choose to live their lives? It literally effects other people 0%.

[BananaCucho]

Lol I didn't know the site had so many bigots.

Why do people give a shit about how other people choose to live their lives? It literally effects other people 0%.

Its ignorance. People are scared of what they don't understand. And instead of educating themselves they spew ignorant comments that their politicians or religious leaders or parents or someone has said because it "made sense" to them even though it is devoid of fact.

Like "evolution doesn't support homosexuality" is an ignorant comment when nature has actually exhibited homosexual behavior in many observed species. But fuck science right?

[Cryptonic]

I like how people's logic is saying we shouldn't support it because it's a mental illness. Even if for some fucked up reason you relate LGBT w/ mental illness, why wouldn't you support someone with a mental illness? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

[BananaCucho]

People try to make this into a far grander issue than it is. "The trannies are taking over! If we send the wrong message babies will stop coming by next generation!" or "The right wing scum are regularly beating LGBTs to death and sucking their blood! We must have gay marriage!". Though it's true sometimes there's an isolated incident of something terrible happening on one side like a 14 year old getting pressured into changing gender and then killing themselves, or homophobes putting a homosexual through therapy that makes them kill themselves, this issue is still really insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately, it just seems everyone needs to grow the fuck up.

You do realize that LGBT suicide rates are a lot higher than heterosexual suicide rates right? That's fact. Are you also aware about LGBT teen homelessness? That while 1.6% of the population identifies as LGBT, a startling 30-40% of homeless TEENS identify as LGBT. Like these these teens don't need to just "grow the fuck up", they are literally being disowned by their families.

This is a much more serious issue than you are making it out to be. Ignorant is what you are.

http://nationalhomeless.org/issues/lgbt/

[BananaCucho]

I know, but we have to be reasonable and acknowledge that people aren't always born with LGBT. Some choose to be so in the span of their lifetime. And to say that we're alright with gender changing would be to say that we're alright with someone deliberately making themselves disabled. I'm not saying that humans only exist to reproduce, but the reality is that LGBT isn't beneficial, and frankly could be harmful.

"You can't have children, so we are going to discard you since you aren't beneficial to the master race"

Thanks Hitler

[Gyrlander]

I like how people's logic is saying we shouldn't support it because it's a mental illness. Even if for some fucked up reason you relate LGBT w/ mental illness, why wouldn't you support someone with a mental illness? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Calling it a mental illness is a mental illness itself.

[Carrot Cake]

if it does not negtivly efect you why does it matter what sex someone believe they are

[Apocist]

People already change themselves in so many different ways because of many different reasons. If someone is utterly disgusted with themselves, wouldn't you say they have the right to strive for a change and not be victimized for it?

[BananaCucho]

if it does not negtivly efect you why does it matter what sex someone believe they are

Also a lot of misunderstanding of what is gender and what is sex. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. If a biologically born male believes they should have been born female, their gender is female while their sex is male.

That's why some get SEX changes - to align their sex with their gender.

Because fuck ignorance guys, you're on the internet already.

[ThePaladin]

Also a lot of misunderstanding of what is gender and what is sex. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. If a biologically born male believes they should have been born female, their gender is female while their sex is male.

That's why some get SEX changes - to align their sex with their gender.

Because fuck ignorance guys, you're on the internet already.

You beat me to it :toadette:

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Lol I didn't know the site had so many bigots.

Why do people give a shit about how other people choose to live their lives? It literally effects other people 0%.

That's the problem with this law is that it can very easily involve a lot of people. Gay marriage is fine because two people get married and you don't have to deal with it. People are now able to just claim a gender and enter places they were previously not allowed to, making others uncomfortable, etc.

[ThePaladin]

Smoking is bad fir your health
We allow smoking

Why not allow other things if they dont affect you
Anf i mean secondhand smoking can actually hurt otbers even....

[ThePaladin]

Lets just invest in having bathroom stalls with sinks in all of them :calix: and any person can use sny stall. There are also actual full walls on the side of the stall.

Rveryones happy right?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Lets just invest in having bathroom stalls with sinks in all of them :calix: and any person can use sny stall. There are also actual full walls on the side of the stall.

Rveryones happy right?

Is it okay if I compete in womens mma, or powerlifitng then? An average male claiming to be female can sweep both.

[ThePaladin]

Is it okay if I compete in womens mma, or powerlifitng then? An average male claiming to be female can sweep both.

I already stated that if a person wants to register as another sex then i believe they should be undertaking the medical procedure as a criteria unless they cannot afford it and such

[ThePaladin]

Suddebly I think we need a political subforum lol

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I already stated that if a person wants to register as another sex then i believe they should be undertaking the medical procedure as a criteria unless they cannot afford it and such

Yeah I agree with that.

Although I just realized I was supposed to be born a dinosaur. I want to register as a dinosaur please, it is the real me.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Hey can someone fix kidnapper on the mod? 21 kidnapper interrogator executes inarow my target has escaped. (only counting non night immune, not healed players). I am aware there is an optino for unblockable kill, but it is glitched regardless.

[Mesk514]

Hey can someone fix kidnapper on the mod? 21 kidnapper interrogator executes inarow my target has escaped. (only counting non night immune, not healed players). I am aware there is an optino for unblockable kill, but it is glitched regardless.

You can still play the mod?

[BananaCucho]

I already stated that if a person wants to register as another sex then i believe they should be undertaking the medical procedure as a criteria unless they cannot afford it and such

There are actual rules in place for this already for some sports. It's the right of any professional organization to make reasonable rules like this to protect the integrity of their sport. This isn't actually a problem. Just a retarded argument


Yeah I agree with that.

Although I just realized I was supposed to be born a dinosaur. I want to register as a dinosaur please, it is the real me.

Oh look at the retard implying that gender == species, kek.

[PowersThatBe]

To anyone who things homosexuality is "unnatural" or a "mental illness" ... I'll offer you this.

When in college my professor of religion/philosophy was talking about how homosexuality was "so unnatural" -- he meant it sarcastically. He then went on to inform the class that the same chemicals in the brain (oxytocin) that lead to attraction/forming bonds early in potential mates, are released in both straight and gay people. He then went on to tell my class that homosexuality is natures form of population control, because if you think about it, if every man and woman could reproduce we would be overrun and our resources would be depleted. So before you try to say being gay is a "choice" or it's "unnatural" just try to consider that it's actually designed by nature to allow for the population to grow in such a way that it does not overtake the earth. Also, homosexuality is found in almost every (or in every) species. Homophobia/discrimination is only found in one species.

Thanks to everyone defending the LGBTQ+ community, I saw some of the comments here, and I was blown away by the ignorance and bigotry.

[BananaCucho]

To anyone who things homosexuality is "unnatural" or a "mental illness" ... I'll offer you this.

When in college my professor of religion/philosophy was talking about how homosexuality was "so unnatural" -- he meant it sarcastically. He then went on to inform the class that the same chemicals in the brain (oxytocin) that lead to attraction/forming bonds early in potential mates, are released in both straight and gay people. He then went on to tell my class that homosexuality is natures form of population control, because if you think about it, if every man and woman could reproduce we would be overrun and our resources would be depleted. So before you try to say being gay is a "choice" or it's "unnatural" just try to consider that it's actually designed by nature to allow for the population to grow in such a way that it does not overtake the earth. Also, homosexuality is found in almost every (or in every) species. Homophobia/discrimination is only found in one species.

Thanks to everyone defending the LGBTQ+ community, I saw some of the comments here, and I was blown away by the ignorance and bigotry.

"Who needs facts when I have my opinion?" -Bigots

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You can still play the mod?

but of course!!


There are actual rules in place for this already for some sports. It's the right of any professional organization to make reasonable rules like this to protect the integrity of their sport. This isn't actually a problem. Just a retarded argument



Oh look at the retard implying that gender == species, kek.

So a man can believe they should have been a female, but not another species? Why? I don't expect much out of someone like you though, so w/e.

[BananaCucho]

but of course!!



So a man can believe they should have been a female, but not another species? Why? I don't expect much out of someone like you though, so w/e.

Once you decide not to be a retard and equate gender and species, then we can have a serious discussion. See because you're being a retard by choice.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Once you decide not to be a retard and equate gender and species, then we can have a serious discussion. See because you're being a retard by choice.

Then start with, how does one go about knowing they should have been the other gender. What differences does one mentally experience that would cause them to realize they are the wrong gender?

[Carrot Cake]

Also a lot of misunderstanding of what is gender and what is sex. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. If a biologically born male believes they should have been born female, their gender is female while their sex is male.

That's why some get SEX changes - to align their sex with their gender.

Because fuck ignorance guys, you're on the internet already.

I still have o fucks. why bother. you can be what you want.

[BananaCucho]

Then start with, how does one go about knowing they should have been the other gender. What differences does one mentally experience that would cause them to realize they are the wrong gender?

Nice personal incredulity fallacy.

You should ask someone who is transgender BTW. Or you know, read their experiences and use empathy instead of being a retarded bigot.

[BananaCucho]

I still have o fucks. why bother. you can be what you want.

That comment was aimed at everyone in the thread who was displaying ignorance on the topic.

Hey now you know the difference :)

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Nice personal incredulity fallacy.

You should ask someone who is transgender BTW. Or you know, read their experiences and use empathy instead of being a retarded bigot.

so I am a bigot for asking and trying to understand the other sides point of view? Interesting.

[BananaCucho]

so I am a bigot for asking and trying to understand the other sides point of view? Interesting.

Given the way you framed the question and the context of the situation, I don't believe you're being genuine for a second, asshole.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Given the way you framed the question and the context of the situation, I don't believe you're being genuine for a second, asshole.

Yeah god forbid someone actually being open to listening and hearing the other side out!! Nah lets assume they are trolling and then tell them to fuck off, that will show them!

[Cryptonic]

That's the problem with this law is that it can very easily involve a lot of people. Gay marriage is fine because two people get married and you don't have to deal with it. People are now able to just claim a gender and enter places they were previously not allowed to, making others uncomfortable, etc.

That's why we should make 3 washrooms. 1 for men, 1 for women, and 1 for bigots.

[Cryptonic]

This law will make females very uncomfortable in public places such as locker rooms, or restrooms.

Did you ever take a minute to consider how very uncomfortable a transgender person would be going into the washroom they feel they don't belong in?

And you can imagine a child trying to cope with these feelings, or someone who has been battling these feelings for their entire life.


You really can't argue against minority rights when you're most likely a Hetero White Male Middle Class Christian (or self described Atheist from Christian background).

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

That's why we should make 3 washrooms. 1 for men, 1 for women, and 1 for bigots.

The problem is people abusing the system due to the lack of barrier. It is very reasonable for a woman to be afraid of creepy men just entering the locker rooms/restrooms. It has nothing to do with being a bigot, but with people being able to switch their gender without effort to something they don't believe they are.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Did you ever take a minute to consider how very uncomfortable a transgender person would be going into the washroom they feel they don't belong in?

And you can imagine a child trying to cope with these feelings, or someone who has been battling these feelings for their entire life.


You really can't argue against minority rights when you're most likely a Hetero White Male Middle Class Christian (or self described Atheist from Christian background).

I don't care about the transgendered people, they can do whatever the hell they want. I care about the people faking being a different gender to abuse the system. It appears to me to be much easier to do now that the barrier (psychological evaluations) is removed.

[ThePaladin]

There are actual rules in place for this already for some sports. It's the right of any professional organization to make reasonable rules like this to protect the integrity of their sport. This isn't actually a problem. Just a retarded argument



Oh look at the retard implying that gender == species, kek.

I meant my comment more towards the whole using facilities of the sex that a person is transitioning into

I really dont see why we dont have unisex bathrooms eith just full dividers and sinks i, stalls yet fir public restrookms.

I wasnt aware of the sports already had rules concerning this thank you for informing ne

[Apocist]

Did you ever take a minute to consider how very uncomfortable a transgender person would be going into the washroom they feel they don't belong in?

This. My friend is so very uncomfortable going into a male's bathroom. But out of fear of others, they literally stalk the women's bathroom, waiting for everyone to leave, just so they can use it without blame.

[Apocist]

I meant my comment more towards the whole using facilities of the sex that a person is transitioning into

I really dont see why we dont have unisex bathrooms eith just full dividers and sinks i, stalls yet fir public restrookms.

I wasnt aware of the sports already had rules concerning this thank you for informing ne

Unisex bathrooms are being planned in many parts of California currently.

[ThePaladin]

Unisex bathrooms are being planned in many parts of California currently.

Ah thats good.
I want to say they are already decently common in countries like japan but still not the norm

[RLVG]

I don't care about the transgendered people, they can do whatever the hell they want. I care about the people faking being a different gender to abuse the system. It appears to me to be much easier to do now that the barrier (psychological evaluations) is removed.

Why can we abuse the system to begin with? Because the social community and culture of humankind is split in two on genders.

A temporary fix to this issue is to give more isolated neutrality.
Why is it so hard to make 20 stalls that's private to the one that's in them?
If people are afraid of the "wrong gender" being in the wrong changing room, why not have private closet rooms to change in that none can peek in? This helps a lot for shy cis-genders.

The problem isn't the "abusers" / "fakers", but the culture, community and government.
Community needs to fix their cynicism and give people a chance as well quitting sexism, culture needs to stop stamping everything sinful based on "non-human / non-natural", government need to issue more neutrality without thinking of typical budget costs as well as fixing the bullshit gender tax / related stuff.

When I say bullshit gender tax, I mean that male paramedics get 20% more payment than female paramedics.

Outside of this, the problem is also trolls and idiots in general. "If I can, then I will"

[ThePaladin]

Why can we abuse the system to begin with? Because the social community and culture of humankind is split in two on genders.

A temporary fix to this issue is to give more isolated neutrality.
Why is it so hard to make 20 stalls that's private to the one that's in them?
If people are afraid of the "wrong gender" being in the wrong changing room, why not have private closet rooms to change in that none can peek in? This helps a lot for shy cis-genders.

The problem isn't the "abusers" / "fakers", but the culture, community and government.
Community needs to fix their cynicism and give people a chance as well quitting sexism, culture needs to stop stamping everything sinful based on "non-human / non-natural", government need to issue more neutrality without thinking of typical budget costs as well as fixing the bullshit gender tax / related stuff.

When I say bullshit gender tax, I mean that male paramedics get 20% more payment than female paramedics.

Outside of this, the problem is also trolls and idiots in general. "If I can, then I will"

This

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Why can we abuse the system to begin with? Because the social community and culture of humankind is split in two on genders.

A temporary fix to this issue is to give more isolated neutrality.
Why is it so hard to make 20 stalls that's private to the one that's in them?
If people are afraid of the "wrong gender" being in the wrong changing room, why not have private closet rooms to change in that none can peek in? This helps a lot for shy cis-genders.

The problem isn't the "abusers" / "fakers", but the culture, community and government.
Community needs to fix their cynicism and give people a chance as well quitting sexism, culture needs to stop stamping everything sinful based on "non-human / non-natural", government need to issue more neutrality without thinking of typical budget costs as well as fixing the bullshit gender tax / related stuff.

When I say bullshit gender tax, I mean that male paramedics get 20% more payment than female paramedics.

Outside of this, the problem is also trolls and idiots in general. "If I can, then I will"

I agree that there should be improved stalls and that would make unisex rooms much improved. IMO its a problem on both ends.

And please do not give me this "gender tax" bullshit. Both male and female make the same wages.

[RLVG]

And please do not give me this "gender tax" bullshit. Both male and female make the same wages.

It's actually the case for several first and second world countries and I even provided an example on male paramedics. I'm unsure about third world.

[ThePaladin]

It's actually the case for several first and second world countries and I even provided an example on male paramedics. I'm unsure about third world.

Thirld world countries have the largest gaps generally

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

It's actually the case for several first and second world countries and I even provided an example on male paramedics. I'm unsure about third world.

A male paramedic will not make more than a female paramedic of equal skill, in an equal location, working the same hours. The woman either negotiated poorly, perhaps is in a safer area, different work hours, or some factor that has caused her to earn less, but it is not because she is a female.

In second and third world countries, I would imagine there is a huge gap.

[PowersThatBe]

Then start with, how does one go about knowing they should have been the other gender. What differences does one mentally experience that would cause them to realize they are the wrong gender?

I would suggest looking up any video of someone who is transgendered talking about their experiences. But, I will attempt to answer from my gay experience and what I know to help you understand. Mentally, typical transgender people experience within themselves a feeling of depression or not being whole. As a gay person, before I came to the realization I was gay, I felt this too, I felt like I didn't belong here that there was no one else like "me" ... often times I'd look up to the sky, thinking that maybe I was an 'alien' ...I was very young, I didn't have the words or thought process to understand that what I felt for my friend Ryan and what I felt for my friend Ashlee were two different feelings, and that one of them, I was attracted to. This later in life allowed me to understand that the reason I felt different, the reason I liked to play with glitter, make-up, barbies, etc. is because I was gay, and that's how I viewed the world. Of course I still had action figures (Xena the Warrior Princess being my favorite). Before you come out, or before you accept yourself, the world feels dark, it feels cold, it feels like you are the only one of 'your' species left and no one else will ever understand you.

For transgendered people, they know when their body isn't right. Many examples are boys who identify as girls not wanting to be called their boy name, wanting girl toys, liking girl colors, not understanding the traditional male roles in society or feeling incongruent with them. Like being gay, trans people don't have the words when they're younger, but once they're able to understand what they're feeling, they are able to understand what they're feeling is the wrong gender. If you really want to know, it's better you hear from a trans person. Watch this video, if not the whole thing, watch from 1:30 to 1:45. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5FviqVGtOE

[ThePaladin]

We really need to get rid of gender roles is sorta the root of most of these problems
Or probably sterotyprs in general

[RLVG]

A male paramedic will not make more than a female paramedic of equal skill

In Norway they do. It's been on debate each year.



Edit :

I did a search and this is the case for USA too.
Males in average there gain 5148 dollars more than females, of the same exact skill, profession and practice.

[BananaCucho]

In Norway they do. It's been on debate each year.

He's doing the thing where he sticks his fingers in his ears and yells "I'm not listening!" over and over. Because once again, fuck facts.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

In Norway they do. It's been on debate each year.

Honestly I have no idea about anything in Norway so I will take your word for it. I am not sure how that is justified. In the USA what I said stands though.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

He's doing the thing where he sticks his fingers in his ears and yells "I'm not listening!" over and over. Because once again, fuck facts.

Hey banana, if males make 20% more with equal skill why do ceo's not hire exclusively females? I listen, you don't. Please get over yourself.

[RLVG]

Honestly I have no idea about anything in Norway so I will take your word for it. I am not sure how that is justified. In the USA what I said stands though.

Nope, it's there too.


Edit :

I did a search and this is the case for USA too.
Males in average there gain 5148 dollars more than females, of the same exact skill, profession and practice.

[ThePaladin]

A male paramedic will not make more than a female paramedic of equal skill, in an equal location, working the same hours. The woman either negotiated poorly, perhaps is in a safer area, different work hours, or some factor that has caused her to earn less, but it is not because she is a female.

In second and third world countries, I would imagine there is a huge gap.

Give evidence for your claims like rlvg did his


-Just some friendly moderator

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Nope, it's there too.

So then they negotiated poorly or took a lower paying job, worked less hours, etc. If a company hires a male accountant and pays them 60,000, it would still be 60,000 if everything was mirrored but the person was a female.

If anything, the higher up we go, males are the ones being discriminated against, ex. STEM.

[ThePaladin]

So then they negotiated poorly or took a lower paying job, worked less hours, etc. If a company hires a male accountant and pays them 60,000, it would still be 60,000 if everything was mirrored but the person was a female.

If anything, the higher up we go, males are the ones being discriminated against, ex. STEM.

Cite statistics and link the websites.

Thank you

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I would suggest looking up any video of someone who is transgendered talking about their experiences. But, I will attempt to answer from my gay experience and what I know to help you understand. Mentally, typical transgender people experience within themselves a feeling of depression or not being whole. As a gay person, before I came to the realization I was gay, I felt this too, I felt like I didn't belong here that there was no one else like "me" ... often times I'd look up to the sky, thinking that maybe I was an 'alien' ...I was very young, I didn't have the words or thought process to understand that what I felt for my friend Ryan and what I felt for my friend Ashlee were two different feelings, and that one of them, I was attracted to. This later in life allowed me to understand that the reason I felt different, the reason I liked to play with glitter, make-up, barbies, etc. is because I was gay, and that's how I viewed the world. Of course I still had action figures (Xena the Warrior Princess being my favorite). Before you come out, or before you accept yourself, the world feels dark, it feels cold, it feels like you are the only one of 'your' species left and no one else will ever understand you.

For transgendered people, they know when their body isn't right. Many examples are boys who identify as girls not wanting to be called their boy name, wanting girl toys, liking girl colors, not understanding the traditional male roles in society or feeling incongruent with them. Like being gay, trans people don't have the words when they're younger, but once they're able to understand what they're feeling, they are able to understand what they're feeling is the wrong gender. If you really want to know, it's better you hear from a trans person. Watch this video, if not the whole thing, watch from 1:30 to 1:45. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5FviqVGtOE

Ah thanks for sharing. I find it interesting that you associate barbies and glitter with being gay. Why can't you just like them outside of being gay or straight? I know colors have changed throughout time. Pink and purple are supposed to be female colors, but purple is supposed to be royal, and pink used to be viewed differently too?

[ThePaladin]

Ah thanks for sharing. I find it interesting that you associate barbies and glitter with being gay. Why can't you just like them outside of being gay or straight? I know colors have changed throughout time. Pink and purple are supposed to be female colors, but purple is supposed to be royal, and pink used to be viewed differently too?

Its his experience hwnce why he is associating

Obviously not all gay people are like that and its a bad sterotype, some are super masculine athletes even

But there are also those who like things which are cinsidered feminine regardless of being gay or not

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Cite statistics and link the websites.

Thank you

where did rlvg cite for the 5k more than woman? Did I miss it?

[PowersThatBe]

Ah thanks for sharing. I find it interesting that you associate barbies and glitter with being gay. Why can't you just like them outside of being gay or straight? I know colors have changed throughout time. Pink and purple are supposed to be female colors, but purple is supposed to be royal, and pink used to be viewed differently too?

Society associates them with being gay/female. I was just using it as an example that was part of my experience.

I agree with Banana, I think you understand what's going on but you're trying to be an ass about it. We all know that society places expectations/views on things like barbies and glitter and gender roles that can play with them.

The fact that you pointed out those points, just tells me that you probably didn't watch the video/care enough to be enlightened. Except you focused on the fact that I pointed out that I used glitter and barbies as a child, and I happen to be gay. Sure, my liking these things defied typical straight male child rearing, because I was gay I didn't understand what I "should" be playing with. My family never stopped me, but they laughed/thought it was cute.

I would love for children to be able to like them outside of being gay or straight, I never said you had to be a gay male to like female things. In fact if I have children, I will support whatever they want to do, whether it is typical to their gender or not.

Your questions are for society to answer, unfortunately the patriarchy has standards/ideals for what straight male children should be playing with.

[ThePaladin]

where did rlvg cite for the 5k more than woman? Did I miss it?

He should


But he is giving numbers they seem to be fron statistics rather than thought up examples

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Society associates them with being gay/female. I was just using it as an example that was part of my experience.

I agree with Banana, I think you understand what's going on but you're trying to be an ass about it. We all know that society places expectations/views on things like barbies and glitter and gender roles that can play with them.

The fact that you pointed out those points, just tells me that you probably didn't watch the video/care enough to be enlightened. Except you focused on the fact that I pointed out that I used glitter and barbies as a child, and I happen to be gay. Sure, my liking these things defied typical straight male child rearing, because I was gay I didn't understand what I "should" be playing with. My family never stopped me, but they laughed/thought it was cute.

I would love for children to be able to like them outside of being gay or straight, I never said you had to be a gay male to like female things. In fact if I have children, I will support whatever they want to do, whether it is typical to their gender or not.

Your questions are for society to answer, unfortunately the patriarchy has standards/ideals for what straight male children should be playing with.

I am not trying to be an ass,

eh I just deleted the rest of the post, no point commenting if you think it is not genuine.

and yes I watched that video, I see where you people get your terrible assumptions in mafia from.

[PowersThatBe]

I am not trying to be an ass,

eh I just deleted the rest of the post, no point commenting if you think it is not genuine.

and yes I watched that video, I see where you people get your terrible assumptions in mafia from.

lol ok. You have nothing to prove to me, but just be careful when trying to understand someone, especially gay people, we're leery about straight people, and their history of mockery and violence towards lgbtq+ ... so. You made the decision to ask questions that had nothing to do with what I was telling you about. I would have liked you to tell us what you now understand, or what you learned from the video.

Instead you went to a point I made and made it seem as though I was being closed minded. Intentionally or not, you are the one who is framing your points this way. You can say what you want about my assumptions, but other people independent of me have noticed this as well. I assume, we're all incorrect?

PLZLEAVEDUCKK

[Apocist]

I agree that there should be improved stalls and that would make unisex rooms much improved. IMO its a problem on both ends.

And please do not give me this "gender tax" bullshit. Both male and female make the same wages.

http://graphics.wsj.com/gender-pay-gap/

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

http://graphics.wsj.com/gender-pay-gap/

Yes they earn less, but they are paid the same wages. The reasons for the gap in what you linked is all factors controlled by the woman. Men who make the same decisions as the female workers earning less, also make the same lower amounts.

[PowersThatBe]

PLZLEAVEDUCKK -- Men and women do NOT make the same wage at all. Women earn $.79 to the dollar that men earn. Also, even in female dominated fields like teaching or nursing, men are more likely to be promoted before a woman even if they have less experience/ability. Look up Glass Ceiling and Glass Escalator.

[PowersThatBe]

Yes they earn less, but they are paid the same wages. The reasons for the gap in what you linked is all factors controlled by the woman. Men who make the same decisions as the female workers earning less, also make the same lower amounts.

wage
wāj/Submit
noun
1.
a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, especially to a manual or unskilled worker.

earn
ərn/Submit
verb
verb: earn; 3rd person present: earns; past tense: earned; past participle: earned; gerund or present participle: earning
(of a person) obtain (money) in return for labor or services.

Now tell me how they make the same "wage" but "earn" less...

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

[Apocist]

wage
wāj/Submit
noun
1.
a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, especially to a manual or unskilled worker.

earn
ərn/Submit
verb
verb: earn; 3rd person present: earns; past tense: earned; past participle: earned; gerund or present participle: earning
(of a person) obtain (money) in return for labor or services.

Now tell me how they make the same "wage" but "earn" less...

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

Just for logical sense... the only way to have the same wage but earn less, is to have the same hourly rate but get less hours or more taxes

[PowersThatBe]

Just for logical sense... the only way to have the same wage but earn less, is to have the same hourly rate but get less hours or more taxes

Exactly, but you linked salaried positions, his point made no sense. I wanted him to explain himself.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

PLZLEAVEDUCKK -- Men and women do NOT make the same wage at all. Women earn $.79 to the dollar that men earn. Also, even in female dominated fields like teaching or nursing, men are more likely to be promoted before a woman even if they have less experience/ability. Look up Glass Ceiling and Glass Elevator.

If you believe this is true, why are we hiring men at all?

[ThePaladin]

Yes they earn less, but they are paid the same wages. The reasons for the gap in what you linked is all factors controlled by the woman. Men who make the same decisions as the female workers earning less, also make the same lower amounts.

Quote reasearch and statistics to counter statistics ir your arguments are null

_friendly moderator

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Quote reasearch and statistics to counter statistics ir your arguments are null

_friendly moderator

its common sense, should not require any source. If you really want I might do it though.

[Apocist]

Exactly, but you linked salaried positions, his point made no sense. I wanted him to explain himself.

Just a note, that wasn't salary it was yearly earnings.

[ThePaladin]

its common sense, should not require any source. If you really want I might do it though.

When you are debating the rules of logicc andd their fallcies are the only things that matyer

Saying something is common sense
"Its common sense that someone must have created the universe"
Doesnt prove anything

[PowersThatBe]

If you believe this is true, why are we hiring men at all?

This is why I believe you're trolling. Men make up the power, men do the hiring. Women are paid less because they are viewed less valuable to a company than a man is. That's why... can you really be this ignorant? We give you hard statistics and you ask "but then why do we hire men?" Da fuq?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

PLZLEAVEDUCKK -- Men and women do NOT make the same wage at all. Women earn $.79 to the dollar that men earn. Also, even in female dominated fields like teaching or nursing, men are more likely to be promoted before a woman even if they have less experience/ability. Look up Glass Ceiling and Glass Elevator.

The whole glass ceiling for women is complete bullshit as well.

[PowersThatBe]

The whole glass ceiling for women is complete bullshit as well.

Why is it bullshit?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This is why I believe you're trolling. Men make up the power, men do the hiring. Women are paid less because they are viewed less valuable to a company than a man is. That's why... can you really be this ignorant? We give you hard statistics and you ask "but then why do we hire men?" Da fuq?

completely bullshit, there are plenty of woman hiring managers. Men do not have the power, what does that even mean? There are no systematical wage gap. Regardless of who is in power, they want to earn the most money. There would be companies with nothing but female employees. People are not paid less because of gender.

[PowersThatBe]

completely bullshit, there are plenty of woman hiring managers. Men do not have the power, what does that even mean? There are no systematical wage gap. Regardless of who is in power, they want to earn the most money. There would be companies with nothing but female employees. People are not paid less because of gender.

Tell me about the Glass Escalator then.

How do you know any of this is true? Do you work at every company in the world? Do you just ignore what's actually happening? So it's just a coincidence that men make more?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Why is it bullshit?

What is stopping women from rising up? The only thing that matters is equality of opportunity, and the only thing that is stopping women is themselves. Women on average choose easier jobs, and work less hours. They are the primary caregivers and they end up choosing being the primary caregiver over dedicating themselves to their job.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Tell me about the Glass Escalator then.

How do you know any of this is true? Do you work at every company in the world? Do you just ignore what's actually happening? So it's just a coincidence that men make more?

People who have the drive and determination + skills will excel.. it does not matter their gender. I personally know hundreds of females that have gotten promotions to CFO/Vice president positions over equally skilled males. They chose to put in the time and effort, and they rose to the top, simple as that.

[ThePaladin]

Duck quote statistics and sources or your points are unproven. The other side has quoted statistics you have not

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Duck quote statistics and sources or your points are unproven. The other side has quoted statistics you have not

once again this topic is common sense, I could quote statistics but it is not needed and a waste of time. People are paid what they are worth. Companies want to maximize profit, they will do what is in their best interest, and if they were able to get equal labor for 20% cheaper, they would hire exclusively females. Seeing women as less valuable is not valid as the goal is to maximize shareholder wealth. Nothing is stopping or discriminating against women but for themselves.

[Orpz]

What is stopping women from rising up? The only thing that matters is equality of opportunity, and the only thing that is stopping women is themselves. Women on average choose easier jobs, and work less hours. They are the primary caregivers and they end up choosing being the primary caregiver over dedicating themselves to their job.

Until modern times, it was considered absurd for a woman to have power over a man, no matter her skills. While the paradigm has certainly shifted, it is still a ways away from being accepted by everyone.

[PowersThatBe]

once again this topic is common sense, I could quote statistics but it is not needed and a waste of time. People are paid what they are worth. Companies want to maximize profit, they will do what is in their best interest, and if they were able to get equal labor for 20% cheaper, they would hire exclusively females. Seeing women as less valuable is not valid as the goal is to maximize shareholder wealth. Nothing is stopping or discriminating against women but for themselves.

It's not common sense because you have no idea what you're talking about. you "personally" knowing hundreds of women who have risen to the top means nothing, you have no statistical or empirical data to prove your claims. However, there is vast quantities of empirical data to suggest that what we are saying is true. You are using your personal experiences and applying them to the world. Your hundred of women friends are nothing comparatively when you understand that there are 157 million women in the USA and the vast majority of them are not given the same opportunity, pay, promotions, etc because of their gender.

You are choosing to ignore facts because, you, a straight (probably white) male under the age of 40 who thinks he knows everything, congrats you belong to the class of people who literally have all of the privilege, and you have the audacity to sit here and make claims about others experiences. You've done nothing to educate yourself, you just think you're right, and fuck us for trying to help you to understand.

[ThePaladin]

once again this topic is common sense, I could quote statistics but it is not needed and a waste of time. People are paid what they are worth. Companies want to maximize profit, they will do what is in their best interest, and if they were able to get equal labor for 20% cheaper, they would hire exclusively females. Seeing women as less valuable is not valid as the goal is to maximize shareholder wealth. Nothing is stopping or discriminating against women but for themselves.

Just so you know

Everyone is going to refuse to take you seriously if you refuse to back up claims with evidence

In any proper debate calling something common sense never is a reason to believe a claim and you will be harshely criticized by your opponent and even the moderator and judges in some cases

[ThePaladin]

Killing all your enemies is just common sense

I mean who wants to have people who may end up being a thorn in their side really

See calling something common sense is garbage in a debate

[Mesk514]

Duck gets paid with dick in the ass because that's what he's worth.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

It's not common sense because you have no idea what you're talking about. you "personally" knowing hundreds of women who have risen to the top means nothing, you have no statistical or empirical data to prove your claims. However, there is vast quantities of empirical data to suggest that what we are saying is true. You are using your personal experiences and applying them to the world. Your hundred of women friends are nothing comparatively when you understand that there are 157 million women in the USA and the vast majority of them are not given the same opportunity, pay, promotions, etc because of their gender.

You are choosing to ignore facts because, you, a straight (probably white) male under the age of 40 who thinks he knows everything, congrats you belong to the class of people who literally have all of the privilege, and you have the audacity to sit here and make claims about others experiences. You've done nothing to educate yourself, you just think you're right, and fuck us for trying to help you to understand.

Racist, sexist, and ageist Nice. What does my race, gender, and age matter?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This is not a source per se, but a harvard economics professor breaking down the factors you need to control for when looking at the pay gap. She explains what factors need to be controlled, and why.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/


Honestly just posting a source with x makes more in each field is a joke to statistics.

[Mesk514]

duck, shut up

[BananaCucho]

What is stopping women from rising up? The only thing that matters is equality of opportunity, and the only thing that is stopping women is themselves. Women on average choose easier jobs, and work less hours. They are the primary caregivers and they end up choosing being the primary caregiver over dedicating themselves to their job.

Yeah this guy is a retarded shitlord and idk why anyone is bothering to even talk with him at this point. Just cite a bunch of opinions as if they are fact when they're not.

This is your average Trump supporter. Retarded by choice.

[BananaCucho]

People who have the drive and determination + skills will excel.. it does not matter their gender. I personally know hundreds of females that have gotten promotions to CFO/Vice president positions over equally skilled males. They chose to put in the time and effort, and they rose to the top, simple as that.

Anecdotal.

I think Duck is trying to commit every fallacy there is.

[BananaCucho]

Until modern times, it was considered absurd for a woman to have power over a man, no matter her skills. While the paradigm has certainly shifted, it is still a ways away from being accepted by everyone.

In a lot of modern culture this is still the case. Mormons for example consider the male to be the head of the household and the leader, and a woman's "role" is to care for children and the home.

Its no surprise to me that Utah, where the LDS church has a firm grip on the state government and Mormon culture affects everyone, has the second highest wage gap between men and women in the nation.

[BananaCucho]

Duck gets paid with dick in the ass because that's what he's worth.

While he's eating his own cut off dick

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Yeah this guy is a retarded shitlord and idk why anyone is bothering to even talk with him at this point. Just cite a bunch of opinions as if they are fact when they're not.

This is your average Trump supporter. Retarded by choice.

AFAIK you have yet to provide any of your citations stating otherwise? If you post sources countering my claims, I will gladly post my real sources and not go off my experiences. You are still unwilling and unable to refute the question of why is every company not purely women then?

What about trump's policies do you not like? I think I saw you ranting about him being a bigot? or something along those lines, can you explain to me other than those points.

[Yukitaka Oni]

The best answer is keep half of the world allowed Trans-gender
While the other half not v(x.o(<
Problem solved v)o.o)>

[Yukitaka Oni]

Yeah this guy is a retarded shitlord and idk why anyone is bothering to even talk with him at this point. Just cite a bunch of opinions as if they are fact when they're not.

This is your average Trump supporter. Retarded by choice.
Vote 4 Trump ^)o.o)> v(o.o(v make murica great again!

[Fatalis]

I never meant to offend anyone and I am really sorry if I did. I just stated my opinion on the matter.

[BananaCucho]

I never meant to offend anyone and I am really sorry if I did. I just stated my opinion on the matter.

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I never meant to offend anyone and I am really sorry if I did. I just stated my opinion on the matter.

No need to be sorry, I doubt anybody would be offended by what you said.

[Cryptonic]

No need to be sorry, I doubt anybody would be offended by what you said.

No one would be offended by saying LGBT is a mental illness and the community members deserve no support? lol

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

No one would be offended by saying LGBT is a mental illness and the community members deserve no support? lol

Is that what he said? For some reason I thought he was the one who posted that suicide rates are higher, and that we should focus on treatment and not accepting it. Either way people should not be offended.

[ThePaladin]

Is that what he said? For some reason I thought he was the one who posted that suicide rates are higher, and that we should focus on treatment and not accepting it. Either way people should not be offended.

Saying that you have a mental illness which isnt classified as such by the APA isnt something youd be offended by...[note this statement was/is in reference to Homosexuality]

:facepalm:

[Ash]

I'm pretty sure that no one in this thread has said that homosexuality is a mental illness. Either I missed a post, or you retards are talking shit. If you guys are referring to me, I never said that homosexuality was a mental illness. I said that transexuals have a mental illness.


Nice personal incredulity fallacy.

You should ask someone who is transgender BTW. Or you know, read their experiences and use empathy instead of being a retarded bigot.

Nice ad hominem, retard.



For transgendered people, they know when their body isn't right. Many examples are boys who identify as girls not wanting to be called their boy name, wanting girl toys, liking girl colors, not understanding the traditional male roles in society or feeling incongruent with them. Like being gay, trans people don't have the words when they're younger, but once they're able to understand what they're feeling, they are able to understand what they're feeling is the wrong gender. If you really want to know, it's better you hear from a trans person. Watch this video, if not the whole thing, watch from 1:30 to 1:45. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5FviqVGtOE

We shouldn't help gender identity disorder patients by allowing them to have sex changes and the sort. That would be the equivalent of allowing schizophrenics to do whatever they want because they believe they're Obama or some shit. Shouldn't we be looking for ways to help these people get with the norm?

Some trannies that undergo sex change may be satisfied with the results, but some experience depression and anxiety because they have to take hormones or undergo surgery. They feel that it's not "natural". Of course this may be a case-by-case basis, but what I'm trying to say is that even if society "accepts" them, they will still be prone to depression, mood swings, etc. because of the hormones in their body. Now I'm not an expert, but it sounds like there should be a better way to help transexuals rather than patting them on the back and let them freak out society.

[Ash]

No one would be offended by saying LGBT is a mental illness and the community members deserve no support? lol

I don't know what he said but to my knowledge, gender dysphoria is a mental illness.

[ThePaladin]

I don't know what he said but to my knowledge, gender dysphoria is a mental illness.

http://psy-gradaran.narod.ru/lib/clinical/DSM5.pdf

According to the DSM V* put forth by the American Psychiatric Association(the largest psychiatric organization in the world composed of both American and International members)
[The DSM is the standard guide used worldwide to diagnose psychiatric conditions and their possible treatments and recommendations.]**


Technically, Ash's statement is correct.

See Page 452[page 486pdf]


Gender DysphoriaDiagnostic CriteriaGender Dysphoria in Children 302.6 (F64.2)A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assignedgender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least six of the following(one of which must be Criterion A1):1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender(or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).2. In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating femaleattire: or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typicalmasculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminineclothing.3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.4. A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engagedin by the other gender.5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.6. In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games,and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assignedgender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy.8. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that matchone’s experienced gender.B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social,school, or other important areas of functioning.Specify if;With a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder suchas 255.2 [E25.0] congenital adrenal hyperplasia or 259.50 [E34.50] androgen insensitivitysyndrome).Coding note: Code the disorder of sex development as well as gender dysphoria.Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults 302.85 (F64.1 )A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assignedgender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least two of the following:1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primaryand/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipatedsecondary sex characteristics).2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics becauseof a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or inyoung adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondarysex characteristics).3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the othergender.4. A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different fromone’s assigned gender).5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender differentfrom one’s assigned gender).6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender(or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social,occupationali^or other important areas of functioning.Specify if:With a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder suchas 255.2 [E25.0] congenital adrenal hyperplasia or 259.50 [E34.50] androgen insensitivitysyndrome).Coding note: Code the disorder of sex development as well as gender dysphoria.Specify if:Posttransttion: The individual has transitioned to full-time living in the desired gender(with or without legalization of gender change) and has undergone (or is preparing tohave) at least one cross-sex medical procedure or treatment regimen—namely, regularcross-sex hormone treatment or gender reassignment surgery confirming the desiredgender (e.g., penectomy, vaginoplasty in a natal male; mastectomy or phalloplasty ina natal female).SpecifiersThe posttransition specifier may be used in the context of continuing treatment proceduresthat serve to support the new gender assignment.Diagnostic FeaturesIndividuals with gender dysphoria have a marked incongruence between the gender theyhave been assigned to (usually at birth, referred to as natal gender) and their experienced/expressed gender. This discrepancy is the core component of the diagnosis. There mustalso be evidence of distress about this incongruence. Experienced gender may include alternativegender identities beyond binary stereotypes. Consequently, the distress is notlimited to a desire to simply be of the other gender, but may include a desire to be of an alternativegender, provided that it differs from the individual's assigned gender.Gender dysphoria manifests itself differently in different age groups. Prepubertal natalgirls with gender dysphoria may express the wish to be a boy, assert they are a boy, or assertthey will grow up to be a man. They prefer boys' clothing and hairstyles, are oftenperceived by strangers as boys, and may ask to be called by a boy's name. Usually, they displayintense negative reactions to parental attempts to have them wear dresses or otherfeminine attire. Some may refuse to attend school or social events where such clothes arerequired. These girls may demonstrate marked cross-gender identification in role-playing,dreams, and fantasies. Contact sports, rough-and-tumble play, traditional boyhood games,and boys as playmates are most often preferred. They show little interest in stereotypicallyfeminine toys (e.g., dolls) or activities (e.g., feminine dress-up or role-play). Occasionally,they refuse to urinate in a sitting position. Some natal girls may express a desire to have apenis or claim to have a penis or that they will grow one when older. They may also state thatthey do not want to develop breasts or menstruate.Prepubertal natal boys with gender dysphoria may express the wish to be a girl or assertthey are a girl or that they will grow up to be a woman. They have a preference fordressing in girls' or women's clothes or may improvise clothing from available materials(e.g., using towels, aprons, and scarves for long hair or skirts). These children may roleplayfemale figures (e.g., playing "mother") and often are intensely interested in femalefantasy figures. Traditional feminine activities, stereotypical games, and pastimes (e.g.,"playing house"; drawing feminine pictures; watching television or videos of favorite femalecharacters) are most often preferred. Stereotypical female-type dolls (e.g.. Barbie) areoften favorite toys, and girls are their preferred playmates. They avoid rough-and-tumbleplay and competitive sports and have little interest in stereotypically masculine toys (e.g.,cars, trucks). Some may pretend not to have a penis and insist on sitting to urinate. Morerarely, they may state that they find their penis or testes disgusting, that they wish them removed,or that they have, or wish to have, a vagina.In young adolescents with gender dysphoria, clinical features may resemble those ofchildren or adults with the condition, depending on developmental level. As secondarysex characteristics of young adolescents are not yet fully developed, these individuals maynot state dislike of them, but they are concerned about imminent physical changes.In adults with gender dysphoria, the discrepancy between experienced gender andphysical sex characteristics is often, but not always, accompanied by a desire to be rid ofprimary and/or secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire to acquire some primaryand/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender. To varying degrees, adultswith gender dysphoria may adopt the behavior, clothing, and mannerisms of the experiencedgender. They feel uncomfortable being regarded by others, or functioning in society,as members of their assigned gender. Some adults may have a strong desire to be of adifferent gender and treated as such, and they may have an inner certainty to feel and respondas the experienced gender without seeking medical treatment to alter body characteristics.They may find other ways to resolve the incongruence between experienced/expressed and assigned gender by partially living in the desired role or by adopting a genderrole neither conventionally male nor conventionally female.Associated Features Supporting DiagnosisWhen visible signs of puberty develop, natal boys may shave their legs at the first signs ofhair growth. They sometimes bind their genitals to make erections less visible. Girls maybind their breasts, walk with a stoop, or use loose sweaters to make breasts less visible. Increasingly,adolescents request, or may obtain without medical prescription and supervision,hormonal suppressors ("blockers") of gonadal steroids (e.g., gonadotropin-releasinghormone [GnRH] analog, spironolactone). Clinically referred adolescents often want hormonetreatment and many also wish for gender reassignment surgery. Adolescents living inan accepting environment may openly express the desire to be and be treated as the experiencedgender and dress partly or completely as the experienced gender, have a hairstyle typicalof the experienced gender, preferentially seek friendships with peers of the other gender,and/or adopt a new first name consistent with the experienced gender. Older adolescents,when sexually active, usually do not show or allow partners to touch their sexual organs. Foradults with an aversion toward their genitals, sexual activity is constrained by the preferencethat their genitals not be seen or touched by their partners. Some adults may seek hormonetreatment (sometimes without medical prescription and supervision) and gender reassignmentsurgery. Others are satisfied with either hormone treatment or surgery alone.Adolescents and adults with gender dysphoria before gender reassignment are at increasedrisk for suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, and suicides. After gender reassignment,adjustment may vary, and suicide risk may persist.PrevaienceFor natal adult males, prevalence ranges from 0.005% to 0.014%, and for natal females,from 0.002% to 0.003%. Since not all adults seeking hormone treatment and surgical reassignmentattend specialty clinics, these rates are likely modest underestimates. Sex differencesin rate of referrals to specialty clinics vary by age group. In children, sex ratios ofnatal boys to girls range from 2:1 to 4.5:1. In adolescents, the sex ratio is close to parity; inadults, the sex ratio favors natal males, with ratios ranging from 1:1 to 6.1:1. In two countries,the sex ratio appears to favor natal females (Japan: 2.2:1; Poland: 3.4:1).Development and CourseBecause expression of gender dysphoria varies with age, there are separate criteria sets forchildren versus adolescents and adults. Criteria for children are defined in a more con-crete, behavioral manner than those for adolescents and adults. Many of the core criteriadraw on well-dofumented behavioral gender differences between typically developingboys and girls. Young children are less likely than older children, adolescents, and adultsto express extreme and persistent anatomic dysphoria. In adolescents and adults, incongruencebetween experienced gender and somatic sex is a central feature of the diagnosis.Factors related to distress and impairment also vary with age. A very young child mayshow signs of distress (e.g., intense crying) only when parents tell the child that he or sheis "really" not a member of the other gender but only "desires" to be. Distress may not bemanifest in social environments supportive of the child's desire to live in the role of theother gender and may emerge only if the desire is interfered with. In adolescents andadults, distress may manifest because of strong incongruence between experienced genderand somatic sex. Such distress may, however, be mitigated by supportive environments andknowledge that biomedical treatments exist to reduce incongruence. Impairment (e.g.,school refusal, development of depression, anxiety, and substance abuse) may be a consequenceof gender dysphoria.Gender dysphoria without a disorder of sex development. For clinic-referred children,onset of cross-gender behaviors is usually between ages 2 and 4 years. This corresponds tothe developmental time period in which most typically developing children begin expressinggendered behaviors and interests. For some preschool-age children, both pervasivecross-gender behaviors and the expressed desire to be the other gender may bepresent, or, more rarely, labeling oneself as a member of the other gender may occur. Insome cases, the expressed desire to be the other gender appears later, usually at entry intoelementary school. A small minority of children express discomfort with their sexual anatomyor will state the desire to have a sexual anatomy corresponding to the experiencedgender ("anatomic dysphoria"). Expressions of anatomic dysphoria become more commonas children with gender dysphoria approach and anticipate puberty.Rates of persistence of gender dysphoria from childhood into adolescence or adulthoodvary. In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistencehas ranged from 12% to 50%. Persistence of gender dysphoria is modestly correlated withdimensional measures of severity ascertained at the time of a childhood baseline assessment.In one sample of natal males, lower socioeconomic background was also modestlycorrelated with persistence. It is unclear if particular therapeutic approaches to genderdysphoria in children are related to rates of long-term persistence. Extant follow-up samplesconsisted of children receiving no formal therapeutic intervention or receiving therapeuticinterventions of various types, ranging from active efforts to reduce genderdysphoria to a more neutral, "watchful waiting" approach. It is unclear if children "encouraged"or supported to live socially in the desired gender will show higher rates of persistence,since such children have not yet been followed longitudinally in a systematicmanner. For both natal male and female children showing persistence, almost all aresexually attracted to individuals of their natal sex. For natal male children whose genderdysphoria does not persist, the majority are androphilic (sexually attracted to males) and oftenself-identify as gay or homosexual (ranging from 63% to 100%). In natal female childrenwhose gender dysphoria does not persist, the percentage who are gynephilic (sexuallyattracted to females) and self-identify as lesbian is lower (ranging from 32% to 50%).In both adolescent and adult natal males, there are two broad trajectories for developmentof gender dysphoria: early onset and late onset. Early-onset gender dysphoria starts inchildhood and continues into adolescence and adulthood; or, there is an intermittent periodin which the gender dysphoria desists and these individuals self-identify as gay or homosexual,followed by recurrence of gender dysphoria. Late-onset gender dysphoria occursaround puberty or much later in life. Some of these individuals report having had a desireto be of the other gender in childhood that was not expressed verbally to others. Others donot recall any signs of childhood gender dysphoria. For adolescent males with late-onsetgender dysphoria, parents often report surprise because they did not see signs of genderdysphoria during childhood. Expressions of anatomic dysphoria are more common andsalient in adolescents and adults once secondary sex characteristics have developed.Adolescent and adult natal males with early-onset gender dysphoria are almost alwayssexually attracted to men (androphilic). Adolescents and adults with late-onset genderdysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement. Themajority of these individuals are gynephilic or sexually attracted to other posttransitionnatal males with late-onset gender dysphoria. A substantial percentage of adult maleswith late-onset gender dysphoria cohabit with or are married to natal females. After gendertransition, many self-identify as lesbian. Among adult natal males with gender dysphoria,the early-onset group seeks out clinical care for hormone treatment and reassignmentsurgery at an earlier age than does the late-onset group. The late-onset group may have morefluctuations in the degree of gender dysphoria and be more ambivalent about and lesslikely satisfied after gender reassignment surgery.In both adolescent and adult natal females, the most common course is the early-onsetform of gender dysphoria. The late-onset form is much less common in natal females comparedwith natal males. As in natal males with gender dysphoria, there may have been aperiod in which the gender dysphoria desisted and these individuals self-identified as lesbian;however, with recurrence of gender dysphoria, clinical consultation is sought, oftenwith the desire for hormone treatment and reassignment surgery. Parents of natal adolescentfemales with the late-onset form also report surprise, as no signs of childhood genderdysphoria were evident. Expressions of anatomic dysphoria are much more common andsalient in adolescents and adults than in children.Adolescent and adult natal females with early-onset gender dysphoria are almostalways gynephilic. Adolescents and adults with the late-onset form of gender dysphoriaare usually androphilic and after gender transition self-identify as gay men. Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement.Gender dysphoria in association with a disorder of sex development. Most individualswith a disorder of sex development who develop gender dysphoria have already come tomedical attention at an early age. For many, starting at birth, issues of gender assignmentwere raised by physicians and parents. Moreover, as infertility is quite common for thisgroup, physicians are more willing to perform cross-sex hormone treatments and genitalsurgery before adulthood.Disorders of sex development in general are frequently associated with gender-atypicalbehavior starting in early childhood. However, in the majority of cases, this does notlead to gender dysphoria. As individuals with a disorder of sex development becomeaware of their medical history and condition, many experience uncertainty about theirgender, as opposed to developing a firm conviction that they are another gender. However,most do not progress to gender transition. Gender dysphoria and gender transitionmay vary considerably as a function of a disorder of sex development, its severity, and assignedgender.Risk and Prognostic FactorsTemperamental. For individuals with gender dysphoria without a disorder of sex development,atypical gender behavior among individuals with early-onset gender dysphoriadevelops in early preschool age, and it is possible that a high degree of atypicalitymakes the development of gender dysphoria and its persistence into adolescence andadulthood more likely.Environmental. Among individuals with gender dysphoria without a disorder of sex development,males with gender dysphoria (in both childhood and adolescence) more commonlyhave older brothers than do males without the condition. Additional predisposingfactors under consideration, especially in individuals with late-onset gender dysphoria (adolescence,adulthpod), include habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia(i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman) andother forms of more general social, psychological, or developmental problems.Genetic and physiological. For individuals with gender dysphoria without a disorder ofsex development, some genetic contribution is suggested by evidence for (weak) familialityof transsexualism among nontwin siblings, increased concordance for transsexualismin monozygotic compared with dizygotic same-sex twins, and some degree of heritabilityof gender dysphoria. As to endocrine findings, no endogenous systemic abnormalities insex-hormone levels have been found in 46,XY individuals, whereas there appear to be increasedandrogen levels (in the range found in hirsute women but far below normal malelevels) in 46,XX individuals. Overall, current evidence is insufficient to label gender dysphoriawithout a disorder of sex development as a form of intersexuality limited to the centralnervous system.In gender dysphoria associated with a disorder of sex development, the likelihood oflater gender dysphoria is increased if prenatal production and utilization (via receptorsensitivity) of androgens are grossly atypical relative to what is usually seen in individualswith the same assigned gender. Examples include 46,XY individuals with a history of normalmale prenatal hormone milieu but inborn nonhormonal genital defects (as in cloacalbladder exstrophy or penile agenesis) and who have been assigned to the female gender.The likelihood of gender dysphoria is further enhanced by additional, prolonged, highlygender-atypical postnatal androgen exposure with somatic virilization as may occur in female-raisedand noncastrated 46,XY individuals with 5-alpha reductase-2 deficiency or17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency or in female-raised 46,XX individualswith classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia with prolonged periods of non-adherence toglucocorticoid replacement therapy. However, the prenatal androgen milieu is moreclosely related to gendered behavior than to gender identity. Many individuals with disordersof sex development and markedly gender-atypical behavior do not develop genderdysphoria. Thus, gender-atypical behavior by itself should not be inteφreted as an indicatorof current or future gender dysphoria. There appears to be a higher rate of genderdysphoria and patient-initiated gender change from assigned female to male than from assignedmale to female in 46,XY individuals with a disorder of sex development.Culture-Related Diagnostic issuesIndividuals with gender dysphoria have been reported across many countries and cultures.The equivalent of gender dysphoria has also been reported in individuals living incultures with institutionalized gender categories other than male or female. It is unclearwhether with these individuals the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria would be met.Diagnostic iVlaricersIndividuals with a somatic disorder of sex development show some correlation of finalgender identity outcome with the degree of prenatal androgen production and utilization.However, the correlation is not robust enough for the biological factor, where ascertainable,to replace a detailed and comprehensive diagnostic interview evaluation for genderdysphoria.Functional Consequences of Gender DysphoriaPreoccupation with cross-gender wishes may develop at all ages after the first 2-3 years ofchildhood and often interfere with daily activities. In older children, failure to developage-typical same-sex peer relationships and skills may lead to isolation from peer groupsand to distress. Some children may refuse to attend school because of teasing and harass-ment or pressure to dress in attire associated with their assigned sex. Also in adolescentsand adults, preoccupation with cross-gender wishes often interferes with daily activities.Relationship difficulties, including sexual relationship problems, are common, and functioningat school or at work may be impaired. Gender dysphoria, along with atypicalgender expression, is associated with high levels of stigmatization, discrimination, andvictimization, leading to negative self-concept, increased rates of mental disorder comorbidity,school dropout, and economic marginalization, including unemployment, with attendantsocial and mental health risks, especially in individuals from resource-poor familybackgrounds. In addition, these individuals' access to health services and mental healthservices may be impeded by structural barriers, such as institutional discomfort or inexperiencein working with this patient population.Differential DiagnosisNonconfonnity to gender roles. Gender dysphoria should be distinguished from simplenonconformity to stereotypical gender role behavior by the strong desire to be of anothergender than the assigned one and by the extent and pervasiveness of gender-variantactivities and interests. The diagnosis is not meant to merely describe nonconformity tostereotypical gender role behavior (e.g., "tomboyism" in girls, "girly-boy" behavior inboys, occasional cross-dressing in adult men). Given the increased openness of atypicalgender expressions by individuals across the entire range of the transgender spectrum, itis important that the clinical diagnosis be limited to those individuals whose distress andimpairment meet the specified criteria.Transvestic disorder. Transvestic disorder occurs in heterosexual (or bisexual) adolescentand adult males (rarely in females) for whom cross-dressing behavior generates sexualexcitement and causes distress and/or impairment without drawing their primarygender into question. It is occasionally accompanied by gender dysphoria. An individualwith transvestic disorder who also has clinically significant gender dysphoria can be givenboth diagnoses. In many cases of late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males,transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor.Body dysmoφhic disorder. An individual with body dysmorphic disorder focuses onthe alteration or removal of a specific body part because it is perceived as abnormally formed,not because it represents a repudiated assigned gender. When an individual's presentationmeets criteria for both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphic disorder, both diagnosescan be given. Individuals wishing to have a healthy limb amputated (termed bysome body integrity identity disorder) because it makes them feel more "complete" usuallydo not wish to change gender, but rather desire to live as an amputee or a disabled person.Schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. In schizophrenia, there may rarely bedelusions of belonging to some other gender. In the absence of psychotic symptoms, insistenceby an individual with gender dysphoria that he or she is of some other gender isnot considered a delusion. Schizophrenia (or other psychotic disorders) and gender dysphoriamay co-occur.Other clinical presentations. Some individuals with an emasculinization desire whodevelop an alternative, nonmale/nonfemale gender identity do have a presentation thatmeets criteria for gender dysphoria. However, some males seek castration and/or penectomyfor aesthetic reasons or to remove psychological effects of androgens without changingmale identity; in these cases, the criteria for gender dysphoria are not met.ComorbidityClinically referred children with gender dysphoria show elevated levels of emotional andbehavioral problems—most commonly, anxiety, disruptive and impulse-control, and de-pressive disorders. In prepubertal children, increasing age is associated with having morebehavioral or emotional problems; this is related to the increasing non-acceptance of gender-variantbehavior by others. In older children, gender-variant behavior often leads topeer ostracism, which may lead to more behavioral problems. The prevalence of mentalhealth problems differs among cultures; these differences may also be related to differencesin attitudes toward gender variance in children. However, also in some non-Westem cultures,anxiety has been found to be relatively common in individuals with gender dysphoria,even in cultures with accepting attitudes toward gender-variant behavior. Autism spectrumdisorder is more prevalent in clinically referred children with gender dysphoria thanin the general population. Clinically referred adolescents with gender dysphoria appear tohave comorbid mental disorders, with anxiety and depressive disorders being the mostcommon. As in children, autism spectrum disorder is more prevalent in clinically referredadolescents with gender dysphoria than in the general population. Clinically referredadults with gender dysphoria may have coexisting mental health problems, most commonlyanxiety and depressive disorders.Other Specified Gender Dysphoria302.6 (F64.8)This category applies to presentations in which symptoms characteristic of gender dysphoriathat cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or otherimportant areas of functioning predominate but do not meet the full criteria for gender dysphoria.The other specified gender dysphoria category is used in situations in which theclinician chooses to communicate the specific reason that the presentation does not meetthe criteria for gender dysphoria. This is done by recording “other specified gender dysphoria”followed by the specific reason (e.g., “brief gender dysphoria”).An example of a presentation that can be specified using the “other specified” designationis the following:The current disturbance meets symptom criteria for gender dysphoria, but theduration is iess than 6 months.Unspecified Gender Dysphoria302.6 (F64.9)This category applies to presentations in which symptoms characteristic of gender dysphoriathat cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or otherimportant areas of functioning predominate but do not meet the full criteria for genderdysphoria. The unspecified gender dysphoria category is used in situations in which theclinician chooses not to specify the reason that the criteria are not met for gender dysphoria,and includes presentations in which there is insufficient information to make a morespecific diagnosis.

http://i.imgur.com/RSP0Kty.jpg


Whelp that copypastaed thorribly. Read the actual pdf if interested.


The APA has however made the following statements

APA POSITION STATEMENTS
The American Psychiatric Association:
1. Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments.
2. Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment.
3. Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician.
The American Psychiatric Association:
1. Supports laws that protect the civil rights of transgender and gender variant individuals.
2. Urges the repeal of laws and policies that discriminate against transgender and gender variant people.
3. Opposes all public and private discrimination against transgender and gender variant individuals in such areas as health care, employment, housing, public accommodation, education, and licensing.
4. Declares that no burden of proof of such judgment, capacity, or reliability shall be placed upon these individuals greater than that imposed on any other persons.

--Taken From ( http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/08/21/721441/apa-issues-position-statements-supporting-transgender-care-and-civil-rights/ )

The APA's position on the issue is that it does recognize that trans-affirmative treatment and aid has a positive impact. However, the psychiatrists or therapist should also help explore the gender-identity(s) with the patient especially if the patient is a youth, as it may be transient if there isn't a long history of identifying as the other gender and receiving treatment.



*Will Henceforth be shortened to DSM

**Note: The WHO and I believe some other countries have their own Psychiatric Organizations but the APA and the WHO are the highest authorities on these subjects.

Here's the guidelines issued on treatment of Gender Dysphoria

https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf

[ThePaladin]

From re-reading what is put forth by the DSM, the root problem of most people's wishes to change or identify as the opposite sex of birth is due to perceived gender roles in culture/society extended beyond even the male/female roles in some societies which have even more gender roles(yes you can have more than 2 gender roles in a society, think about people in cultures who are allowed to reproduce while others are limited to specific tasks in life as an example)

[PowersThatBe]

Ash -- I'm pretty sure allowing someone to change their sex to solve their gender dysphoria by allowing them to change to their identifying sex from their assigned sex, literally, effects no one else but them. So to compare it to schizophrenia is not only stupid, but it's a dangerous mindset as well... Your opinion lacks any common sense, or rational thought. I bet you believe gay marriage leads to beastiality too, no?

Back to the actual conversation. Transgender sex changes are an extremely personal decision, and often times, not even the top priority. So let's stop with all the "DONT LET THEM CHANGE." It's non of anyone else's business, so there is no "don't let them change." If people want to change to be whole, let them change, but if they don't want to change, then they don't have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGQwX2fizw8

WTF is normal? Your version of normal is not my version of normal, so no we shouldn't be helping people to get to the "norm" we should be helping people to feel whole, comfortable, and complete. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Also: 1: Tranny or trannies is a derogatory term, stop using it immediately. 2: If "society is freaked out" that's their own fucking fault. Also, no one just "pats" anyone on the back, people support those who make a difficult decision that some spend many years contemplating, before doing. Of course mood swings and such are side effects, but those go away after their bodies become used to the hormones. That's why it's called TRANSITIONING. People will be more upset and depressed not living in their true bodies. Not all, but many, so giving them the option to have the surgery allows them to make the decision for themselves. Again, a decision that doesn't even have bearing on your life.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Ash -- I'm pretty sure allowing someone to change their sex to solve their gender dysphoria by allowing them to change to their identifying sex from their assigned sex, literally, effects no one else but them. So to compare it to schizophrenia is not only stupid, but it's a dangerous mindset as well... Your opinion lacks any common sense, or rational thought. I bet you believe gay marriage leads to beastiality too, no?

Back to the actual conversation. Transgender sex changes are an extremely personal decision, and often times, not even the top priority. So let's stop with all the "DONT LET THEM CHANGE." It's non of anyone else's business, so there is no "don't let them change." If people want to change to be whole, let them change, but if they don't want to change, then they don't have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGQwX2fizw8

WTF is normal? Your version of normal is not my version of normal, so no we shouldn't be helping people to get to the "norm" we should be helping people to feel whole, comfortable, and complete. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Also: 1: Tranny or trannies is a derogatory term, stop using it immediately. 2: If "society is freaked out" that's their own fucking fault. Also, no one just "pats" anyone on the back, people support those who make a difficult decision that some spend many years contemplating, before doing. Of course mood swings and such are side effects, but those go away after their bodies become used to the hormones. That's why it's called TRANSITIONING. People will be more upset and depressed not living in their true bodies. Not all, but many, so giving them the option to have the surgery allows them to make the decision for themselves. Again, a decision that doesn't even have bearing on your life.

tranny is derogatory, since when? Fun fact, transsexuals are able to do whatever they want the same way ash can use whatever words he wants...

If transsexuals think they are the other gender why would the decision to get the surgery be difficult, it should be a no brainer.

[PowersThatBe]

tranny is derogatory, since when? Fun fact, transsexuals are able to do whatever they want the same way ash can use whatever words he wants...

If transsexuals think they are the other gender why would the decision to get the surgery be difficult, it should be a no brainer.

Um tranny is derogatory. It's difficult because it's fucking expensive, and often a long process. It's also emotionally and physically difficult as well with hormone therapy, surgery, etc.

Your ignorance is just beyond any fucking comprehension.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Um tranny is derogatory. It's difficult because it's fucking expensive, and often a long process. It's also emotionally and physically difficult as well with hormone therapy, surgery, etc.

Your ignorance is just beyond any fucking comprehension.

I bought a boat recently. It was expensive and a long process that was taxing mentally and physically as well.

You trannies be cray cray.

[ThePaladin]

I bought a boat recently. It was expensive and a long process that was taxing mentally and physically as well.

You trannies be cray cray.

Cut off your arm since you have nerve damage to it thereby inhibiting you from using it properly. Then get a prosthetic one and slowly get used to using it.
That's a way better correlation than buying a boat.
Buying a boat is also not nearly as mentally or physically taxing as having to rethink your entire life and what you will be as well as societies viewpoint on you depending on your decision. Society really doesn't care if you have a boat.

Also unless you want people to call white people whitey's and asian people yellows or orientals and so on. Please understand that shortening most words and adding a y to it is typically derogatory in general. It is also typically derogatory to call anyone but the official term unless it is culturally acceptable in the person you are talking about or saying it to's eyes.

[ThePaladin]

But in all seriousness.

Duck if you think trolling is good behaviour and not caring to have a proper debate when the rest of us are.

You should probably see a psychiatrist.

[Orpz]

While I do not agree with Duckk, there are a lot of unnecessary attacks on him for his opinions earlier in the thread. We are in Circlejerk, but no good dialogue can come out of insulting anyone based on their beliefs.

[ThePaladin]

While I do not agree with Duckk, there are a lot of unnecessary attacks on him for his opinions earlier in the thread. We are in Circlejerk, but no good dialogue can come out of insulting anyone based on their beliefs.

While I agree that just outright insulting a guy doesn't do anything like banana was doing,

I only commented on him trying to link surgery/hormonal medication(which takes multiple years to full transition out of) and buying a boat being the same thing as appearing to be trolly
and asking him to please give evidence.

I assume you were talking about the former, or did you also find problems in what I was saying about him?

[Cryptonic]

While I do not agree with Duckk, there are a lot of unnecessary attacks on him for his opinions earlier in the thread. We are in Circlejerk, but no good dialogue can come out of insulting anyone based on their beliefs.

The subforum is in CJ in error. This is Serious Disc.

[Ash]

@Ash (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=2697) -- I'm pretty sure allowing someone to change their sex to solve their gender dysphoria by allowing them to change to their identifying sex from their assigned sex, literally, effects no one else but them. So to compare it to schizophrenia is not only stupid, but it's a dangerous mindset as well... Your opinion lacks any common sense, or rational thought.

Uh no. Sex change still doesn't "solve" gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria suddenly doesn't go away after you get a sex change. It still persists even after sex changes, which is why some transexuals end up making life-regretting decisions. The reason I compare them to schizophrenics is because we can't let them believe what they want to believe. We have to get them actual proper treatment to help them know where they really stand in society.


I bet you believe gay marriage leads to beastiality too, no? .
Irrelevant tbh. Your sexual orientation plays no role in your preferred fetishes.


Back to the actual conversation. Transgender sex changes are an extremely personal decision, and often times, not even the top priority. So let's stop with all the "DONT LET THEM CHANGE." It's non of anyone else's business, so there is no "don't let them change." If people want to change to be whole, let them change, but if they don't want to change, then they don't have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGQwX2fizw8

WTF is normal? Your version of normal is not my version of normal, so no we shouldn't be helping people to get to the "norm" we should be helping people to feel whole, comfortable, and complete. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Also: 1: Tranny or trannies is a derogatory term, stop using it immediately. 2: If "society is freaked out" that's their own fucking fault. Also, no one just "pats" anyone on the back, people support those who make a difficult decision that some spend many years contemplating, before doing. Of course mood swings and such are side effects, but those go away after their bodies become used to the hormones. That's why it's called TRANSITIONING. People will be more upset and depressed not living in their true bodies. Not all, but many, so giving them the option to have the surgery allows them to make the decision for themselves. Again, a decision that doesn't even have bearing on your life.

Anything that happens in my society is my business. Just like if someone decides to rob my local store or decides to shoot up a public place, it's my business because it may affect me someday. I'm concerned about the health and sanity of my society. And yeah, not every person with Gender Identity Disorder will undergo sex change. Some of them are comfortable enough with their original sex, and that's fine. But there's no guarantee that you will feel "comfortable" with your new sex after having to experience lots of hormone changes and conforming to a new lifestyle. This surgery is impractical and expensive.

I agree with your version of the norm. I'm all up for homosexual marriage, I don't mind. I don't mind letting transexuals feel the way they should, however you don't understand that a percentage of transexuals don't feel whole, comfortable, or complete. Sex change is nothing but an expensive piece of genital mutilation + hormones.


Um tranny is derogatory. It's difficult because it's fucking expensive, and often a long process. It's also emotionally and physically difficult as well with hormone therapy, surgery, etc.

Your ignorance is just beyond any fucking comprehension.

Exactly. It's expensive and not every tranny can undergo such treatment. This is one of the reasons they start facing depression and anxiety. Maybe if we just ban sex change, they won't have to fucking worry about expensive treatments and instead we'll have productive psychologists that will try to help them from their sick delusions.

[BananaCucho]

Ash

Not every transgender individual experiences gender disphoria. Gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

"Disphoria" is literally a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life. You're literally spewing ignorance as you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Paladin gave an incomplete story with that reference to the DSM. It used to be Gender Identity Disorder, which is what you were referring to, a classification of mental illness, but now has been reclassified.

Homosexuality used to also be classified as a mental disorder and has been removed as it is now understood to not be. Get with the times you dinosaur.

[BananaCucho]

While I do not agree with Duckk, there are a lot of unnecessary attacks on him for his opinions earlier in the thread. We are in Circlejerk, but no good dialogue can come out of insulting anyone based on their beliefs.

I see MZ took ducks cock out of his mouth for a second. How's it taste?

[PowersThatBe]

Uh no. Sex change still doesn't "solve" gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria suddenly doesn't go away after you get a sex change. It still persists even after sex changes, which is why some transexuals end up making life-regretting decisions. The reason I compare them to schizophrenics is because we can't let them believe what they want to believe. We have to get them actual proper treatment to help them know where they really stand in society.


Irrelevant tbh. Your sexual orientation plays no role in your preferred fetishes.



Anything that happens in my society is my business. Just like if someone decides to rob my local store or decides to shoot up a public place, it's my business because it may affect me someday. I'm concerned about the health and sanity of my society. And yeah, not every person with Gender Identity Disorder will undergo sex change. Some of them are comfortable enough with their original sex, and that's fine. But there's no guarantee that you will feel "comfortable" with your new sex after having to experience lots of hormone changes and conforming to a new lifestyle. This surgery is impractical and expensive.

I agree with your version of the norm. I'm all up for homosexual marriage, I don't mind. I don't mind letting transexuals feel the way they should, however you don't understand that a percentage of transexuals don't feel whole, comfortable, or complete. Sex change is nothing but an expensive piece of genital mutilation + hormones.



Exactly. It's expensive and not every tranny can undergo such treatment. This is one of the reasons they start facing depression and anxiety. Maybe if we just ban sex change, they won't have to fucking worry about expensive treatments and instead we'll have productive psychologists that will try to help them from their sick delusions.

Cite your sources that sex reassignment doesn't help. Prove your points. And no, everyone is entitled to their private business. YOU are not entitled to know what anyone in your society is doing if it has nothing to do with you. Stop with your retarded logic.

Your last few sentences prove you're nothing more than an ignorant bigot who clearly has no fucking idea what he's talking about.

ALSO: Educate your fucking self, it's not just LETS DO SURGERY. SNIP SNIP. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx

ALSO: READ THIS: The fucking regret and shame they feel isn't because of the surgery, or any treatment, it comes from the fucking bullying of people in society like YOU. http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm -- skip to the bottom, they have a TL;DR

It's a long and sometimes painful process because its hard to change, but when they do change they feel complete in most cases, they feel they are finally where they should, they're the happiest they've been. Not everyone get's the surgery, not everyone is the same. But every one of you ignorant assholes who thing you can control someone are. Their life is not your fucking business, it does not impact you whatsoever, and don't even say that it does. Because it fucking doesn't, get your small minded ass out of your poop-hole. So sick of people like you who just spew ignorant bullshit because you're too fucking stupid to realize what you're saying is both stupid and backwards.

[PowersThatBe]

While I do not agree with Duckk, there are a lot of unnecessary attacks on him for his opinions earlier in the thread. We are in Circlejerk, but no good dialogue can come out of insulting anyone based on their beliefs.

He's being an asshole unnecessarily, I tried to be nice, but he went on and was a dick about things. I agree, this shouldn't be in CJ. And Duck is an asshole.

[Quick]

People get their nutz chopped off... this is a thing. We live in a strange world.

I do have a serious question tho.. I always wondered if when a person has an operation to change their genitalia if it actually functions like it "should" if you know what I mean, goes both way with that direction.

[ThePaladin]

Ash

Not every transgender individual experiences gender disphoria. Gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

"Disphoria" is literally a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life. You're literally spewing ignorance as you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Paladin gave an incomplete story with that reference to the DSM. It used to be Gender Identity Disorder, which is what you were referring to, a classification of mental illness, but now has been reclassified.

Homosexuality used to also be classified as a mental disorder and has been removed as it is now understood to not be. Get with the times you dinosaur.

Gender dysphoria is still considered a negative medical condition that shoikd recievev treatment. And most trans people do havr this since they are dissatisfied with their gender role versus sex.

However, the dms does recognize that hormonal treatment and surgery as been beneficial in 80percent of cases


I fail to see how my stateement was wrong

[BananaCucho]

Gender dysphoria is still considered a negative medical condition that shoikd recievev treatment.

I fail to see how my stateement was wrong

Its not a mental illness. You said technically Ash was right when he's completely off the mark.

[BananaCucho]

People get their nutz chopped off... this is a thing. We live in a strange world.

I do have a serious question tho.. I always wondered if when a person has an operation to change their genitalia if it actually functions like it "should" if you know what I mean, goes both way with that direction.

You could, you know, not be a shitlord and use Google. It's free you know. Imagine that, finding stuff out on your own.

[ThePaladin]

Its not a mental illness. You said technically Ash was right when he's completely off the mark.

If you are severely concerned of erectile dysfunction then you have mental condition of anxiety and depresssion ins relation to the provlem, it doesnt mean thag you have a severe problem thst we dhould chsnge your wsy if thinking but solve thr problem

[ThePaladin]

It just means, you need treatment to alleviate thr snxyiety snd depression and get guidance on the best route for you

[BananaCucho]

If you are severely concerned of erectile dysfunction then you have mental condition of anxiety and depresssion ins relation to the provlem, it doesnt mean thag you have a severe problem thst we dhould chsnge your wsy if thinking but solve thr problem

Then call it a condition not an illness. Illness makes it seem like schizophrenia, which its not.

Ash is conflating gender disphoria with being transgender, and flat out stating that all transgender individuals are mentally ill. There is nothing "technically correct" about that statement and instead of defending yourself over agreeing with him on that you should correct him.

[ThePaladin]

Then call it a condition not an illness. Illness makes it seem like schizophrenia, which its not.

Ash is conflating gender disphoria with being transgender, and flat out stating that all transgender individuals are mentally ill. There is nothing "technically correct" about that statement and instead of defending yourself over agreeing with him on that you should correct him.

Do you not understand the definition of technically?

"Gender Dysphoria is a mental illnesss"

-This statement is technically correct.

I never referenced his positions on all transgender people, just that statement.

[BananaCucho]

Do you not understand the definition of technically?

"Gender Dysphoria is a mental illnesss"

-This statement is technically correct.

I never referenced his positions on all transgender people, just that statement.

You didn't frame context though, which let's Ash continue to be ignorant as it appears you are supporting his claim.

[PowersThatBe]

Do you not understand the definition of technically?

"Gender Dysphoria is a mental illnesss"

-This statement is technically correct.

I never referenced his positions on all transgender people, just that statement.

Ash is saying all people who are transgender have GID, which is untrue. Some who have GID are transgendered, some who have GID are not. So technically, no he's not correct, and he's a bigoted asshole.

[BananaCucho]

Ash is saying all people who are transgender have GID, which is untrue. Some who have GID are transgendered, some who have GID are not. So technically, no he's not correct, and he's a bigoted asshole.

Upvote

[ThePaladin]

Ash is saying all people who are transgender have GID, which is untrue. Some who have GID are transgendered, some who have GID are not. So technically, no he's not correct, and he's a bigoted asshole.

That ONE statement is technically correct.

The rest of his position isn't backed up by any sort of evidence or scientific consensus. Nor did I ever say it was.

[PowersThatBe]

That ONE statement is technically correct.

The rest of his position isn't backed up by any sort of evidence or scientific consensus. Nor did I ever say it was.

Which statement? Go re-read it there chief.

[Quick]

Then call it a condition not an illness. Illness makes it seem like schizophrenia, which its not.

Ash is conflating gender disphoria with being transgender, and flat out stating that all transgender individuals are mentally ill. There is nothing "technically correct" about that statement and instead of defending yourself over agreeing with him on that you should correct him.

Tell me oh wise one, what is the point in this discrepancy of dichotomy? Mental illness is also a condition, just like a fever or a tooth ache.

[Quick]

Also, if obesity can be a disorder than why can't transgender be a disorder as well? I mean really, which one looks more abnormal?

[BananaCucho]

Tell me oh wise one, what is the point in this discrepancy of dichotomy? Mental illness is also a condition, just like a fever or a tooth ache.

Context. Its not that hard to understand, even for someone as closed minded as you.

[BananaCucho]

Also, if obesity can be a disorder than why can't transgender be a disorder as well? I mean really, which one looks more abnormal?

Again, you just like Ash are conflating "transgender" with gender disphoria. NOT the same thing.

Being transgender is not a mental illness nor condition.

[PowersThatBe]

Again, you just like Ash are conflating "transgender" with gender disphoria. NOT the same thing.

Being transgender is not a mental illness nor condition.

This.

[Quick]

Context. Its not that hard to understand, even for someone as closed minded as you.

Calling me close minded.. Lawl, that is a new one. I've never been called close minded by anyone before.. most people who know me irl think I am actually one of the most open minded people they know.

The facts are, transgender is weird, there is no way around that. It stands to reason that there is prolly something in their brain that is not working right, hence the massive confusion over what gender they are. It remains to be seen if this is because of conditioning or genetics, but the point is that people who think they are not the gender they are born with are dealing with some massive underlying issues.

Do me a favor and make you case for how a disorder of the brain is any different than any other health concern. Feel free to look up what professionals in the mental health field have to say about this.

[Quick]

Again, you just like Ash are conflating "transgender" with gender disphoria. NOT the same thing.

Being transgender is not a mental illness nor condition.

How in the hell are you going to tell me that someone who is confused about something as basic as what genitalia they were born with is normal? Its not normal.. the fact that the suicide rate and attempted suicide rate is way higher than those who are not transgender is evidence of this alone.

[BananaCucho]

Calling me close minded.. Lawl, that is a new one. I've never been called close minded by anyone before.. most people who know me irl think I am actually one of the most open minded people they know.

The facts are, transgender is weird, there is no way around that. .

Stopped reading there due to the massive contradiction.

"I'm not closed minded.... but," followed by a closed minded statement. Good work.

[BananaCucho]

How in the hell are you going to tell me that someone who is confused about something as basic as what genitalia they were born with is normal? Its not normal.. the fact that the suicide rate and attempted suicide rate is way higher than those who are not transgender is evidence of this alone.

Personal incredulity fallacy.

Wow you're so open minded.

[Quick]

Again, you just like Ash are conflating "transgender" with gender disphoria. NOT the same thing.

Being transgender is not a mental illness nor condition.

What the hell do you call it then?


Stopped reading there due to the massive contradiction.

"I'm not closed minded.... but," followed by a closed minded statement. Good work.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you missed my entire point.

[Quick]

Stopped reading there due to the massive contradiction.

"I'm not closed minded.... but," followed by a closed minded statement. Good work.

Right, well I think I'm weird too, but go ahead and assume more please.

[BananaCucho]

What the hell do you call it then?



I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you missed my entire point.

If you actually did research on it you would understand, versus spewing ignorant closed minded nonsense.

[Quick]

If you actually did research on it you would understand, versus spewing ignorant closed minded nonsense.

Right and how much research have you done on mental illness?

[BananaCucho]

Right and how much research have you done on mental illness?

Nice tu quoque attempt. So many fallacies from the bigots in this thread.

[FYRE]

Nice tu quoque attempt. So many fallacies form the bigots in this thread.

Wtf someone actually used this in an argument...? gg no re

[BananaCucho]

Wtf someone actually used this in an argument...? gg no re

gg ez

[ThePaladin]

Which statement? Go re-read it there chief.

Gender dysphoria is a mental ilness is the exact post i commented on

[ThePaladin]

Banana did you read through the dsm section on gender dysphoria?

[PowersThatBe]

Gender dysphoria is a mental ilness is the exact post i commented on

can you quote it for me please?

[ThePaladin]

I don't know what he said but to my knowledge, gender dysphoria is a mental illness.


http://psy-gradaran.narod.ru/lib/clinical/DSM5.pdf

According to the DSM V* put forth by the American Psychiatric Association(the largest psychiatric organization in the world composed of both American and International members)
[The DSM is the standard guide used worldwide to diagnose psychiatric conditions and their possible treatments and recommendations.]**


Technically, Ash's statement is correct.

See Page 452[page 486pdf]


Gender DysphoriaDiagnostic CriteriaGender Dysphoria in Children 302.6 (F64.2)A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assignedgender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least six of the following(one of which must be Criterion A1):1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender(or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).2. In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating femaleattire: or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typicalmasculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminineclothing.3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.4. A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engagedin by the other gender.5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.6. In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games,and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assignedgender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy.8. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that matchone’s experienced gender.B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social,school, or other important areas of functioning.Specify if;With a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder suchas 255.2 [E25.0] congenital adrenal hyperplasia or 259.50 [E34.50] androgen insensitivitysyndrome).Coding note: Code the disorder of sex development as well as gender dysphoria.Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults 302.85 (F64.1 )A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assignedgender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least two of the following:1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primaryand/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipatedsecondary sex characteristics).2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics becauseof a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or inyoung adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondarysex characteristics).3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the othergender.4. A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different fromone’s assigned gender).5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender differentfrom one’s assigned gender).6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender(or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social,occupationali^or other important areas of functioning.Specify if:With a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder suchas 255.2 [E25.0] congenital adrenal hyperplasia or 259.50 [E34.50] androgen insensitivitysyndrome).Coding note: Code the disorder of sex development as well as gender dysphoria.Specify if:Posttransttion: The individual has transitioned to full-time living in the desired gender(with or without legalization of gender change) and has undergone (or is preparing tohave) at least one cross-sex medical procedure or treatment regimen—namely, regularcross-sex hormone treatment or gender reassignment surgery confirming the desiredgender (e.g., penectomy, vaginoplasty in a natal male; mastectomy or phalloplasty ina natal female).SpecifiersThe posttransition specifier may be used in the context of continuing treatment proceduresthat serve to support the new gender assignment.Diagnostic FeaturesIndividuals with gender dysphoria have a marked incongruence between the gender theyhave been assigned to (usually at birth, referred to as natal gender) and their experienced/expressed gender. This discrepancy is the core component of the diagnosis. There mustalso be evidence of distress about this incongruence. Experienced gender may include alternativegender identities beyond binary stereotypes. Consequently, the distress is notlimited to a desire to simply be of the other gender, but may include a desire to be of an alternativegender, provided that it differs from the individual's assigned gender.Gender dysphoria manifests itself differently in different age groups. Prepubertal natalgirls with gender dysphoria may express the wish to be a boy, assert they are a boy, or assertthey will grow up to be a man. They prefer boys' clothing and hairstyles, are oftenperceived by strangers as boys, and may ask to be called by a boy's name. Usually, they displayintense negative reactions to parental attempts to have them wear dresses or otherfeminine attire. Some may refuse to attend school or social events where such clothes arerequired. These girls may demonstrate marked cross-gender identification in role-playing,dreams, and fantasies. Contact sports, rough-and-tumble play, traditional boyhood games,and boys as playmates are most often preferred. They show little interest in stereotypicallyfeminine toys (e.g., dolls) or activities (e.g., feminine dress-up or role-play). Occasionally,they refuse to urinate in a sitting position. Some natal girls may express a desire to have apenis or claim to have a penis or that they will grow one when older. They may also state thatthey do not want to develop breasts or menstruate.Prepubertal natal boys with gender dysphoria may express the wish to be a girl or assertthey are a girl or that they will grow up to be a woman. They have a preference fordressing in girls' or women's clothes or may improvise clothing from available materials(e.g., using towels, aprons, and scarves for long hair or skirts). These children may roleplayfemale figures (e.g., playing "mother") and often are intensely interested in femalefantasy figures. Traditional feminine activities, stereotypical games, and pastimes (e.g.,"playing house"; drawing feminine pictures; watching television or videos of favorite femalecharacters) are most often preferred. Stereotypical female-type dolls (e.g.. Barbie) areoften favorite toys, and girls are their preferred playmates. They avoid rough-and-tumbleplay and competitive sports and have little interest in stereotypically masculine toys (e.g.,cars, trucks). Some may pretend not to have a penis and insist on sitting to urinate. Morerarely, they may state that they find their penis or testes disgusting, that they wish them removed,or that they have, or wish to have, a vagina.In young adolescents with gender dysphoria, clinical features may resemble those ofchildren or adults with the condition, depending on developmental level. As secondarysex characteristics of young adolescents are not yet fully developed, these individuals maynot state dislike of them, but they are concerned about imminent physical changes.In adults with gender dysphoria, the discrepancy between experienced gender andphysical sex characteristics is often, but not always, accompanied by a desire to be rid ofprimary and/or secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire to acquire some primaryand/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender. To varying degrees, adultswith gender dysphoria may adopt the behavior, clothing, and mannerisms of the experiencedgender. They feel uncomfortable being regarded by others, or functioning in society,as members of their assigned gender. Some adults may have a strong desire to be of adifferent gender and treated as such, and they may have an inner certainty to feel and respondas the experienced gender without seeking medical treatment to alter body characteristics.They may find other ways to resolve the incongruence between experienced/expressed and assigned gender by partially living in the desired role or by adopting a genderrole neither conventionally male nor conventionally female.Associated Features Supporting DiagnosisWhen visible signs of puberty develop, natal boys may shave their legs at the first signs ofhair growth. They sometimes bind their genitals to make erections less visible. Girls maybind their breasts, walk with a stoop, or use loose sweaters to make breasts less visible. Increasingly,adolescents request, or may obtain without medical prescription and supervision,hormonal suppressors ("blockers") of gonadal steroids (e.g., gonadotropin-releasinghormone [GnRH] analog, spironolactone). Clinically referred adolescents often want hormonetreatment and many also wish for gender reassignment surgery. Adolescents living inan accepting environment may openly express the desire to be and be treated as the experiencedgender and dress partly or completely as the experienced gender, have a hairstyle typicalof the experienced gender, preferentially seek friendships with peers of the other gender,and/or adopt a new first name consistent with the experienced gender. Older adolescents,when sexually active, usually do not show or allow partners to touch their sexual organs. Foradults with an aversion toward their genitals, sexual activity is constrained by the preferencethat their genitals not be seen or touched by their partners. Some adults may seek hormonetreatment (sometimes without medical prescription and supervision) and gender reassignmentsurgery. Others are satisfied with either hormone treatment or surgery alone.Adolescents and adults with gender dysphoria before gender reassignment are at increasedrisk for suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, and suicides. After gender reassignment,adjustment may vary, and suicide risk may persist.PrevaienceFor natal adult males, prevalence ranges from 0.005% to 0.014%, and for natal females,from 0.002% to 0.003%. Since not all adults seeking hormone treatment and surgical reassignmentattend specialty clinics, these rates are likely modest underestimates. Sex differencesin rate of referrals to specialty clinics vary by age group. In children, sex ratios ofnatal boys to girls range from 2:1 to 4.5:1. In adolescents, the sex ratio is close to parity; inadults, the sex ratio favors natal males, with ratios ranging from 1:1 to 6.1:1. In two countries,the sex ratio appears to favor natal females (Japan: 2.2:1; Poland: 3.4:1).Development and CourseBecause expression of gender dysphoria varies with age, there are separate criteria sets forchildren versus adolescents and adults. Criteria for children are defined in a more con-crete, behavioral manner than those for adolescents and adults. Many of the core criteriadraw on well-dofumented behavioral gender differences between typically developingboys and girls. Young children are less likely than older children, adolescents, and adultsto express extreme and persistent anatomic dysphoria. In adolescents and adults, incongruencebetween experienced gender and somatic sex is a central feature of the diagnosis.Factors related to distress and impairment also vary with age. A very young child mayshow signs of distress (e.g., intense crying) only when parents tell the child that he or sheis "really" not a member of the other gender but only "desires" to be. Distress may not bemanifest in social environments supportive of the child's desire to live in the role of theother gender and may emerge only if the desire is interfered with. In adolescents andadults, distress may manifest because of strong incongruence between experienced genderand somatic sex. Such distress may, however, be mitigated by supportive environments andknowledge that biomedical treatments exist to reduce incongruence. Impairment (e.g.,school refusal, development of depression, anxiety, and substance abuse) may be a consequenceof gender dysphoria.Gender dysphoria without a disorder of sex development. For clinic-referred children,onset of cross-gender behaviors is usually between ages 2 and 4 years. This corresponds tothe developmental time period in which most typically developing children begin expressinggendered behaviors and interests. For some preschool-age children, both pervasivecross-gender behaviors and the expressed desire to be the other gender may bepresent, or, more rarely, labeling oneself as a member of the other gender may occur. Insome cases, the expressed desire to be the other gender appears later, usually at entry intoelementary school. A small minority of children express discomfort with their sexual anatomyor will state the desire to have a sexual anatomy corresponding to the experiencedgender ("anatomic dysphoria"). Expressions of anatomic dysphoria become more commonas children with gender dysphoria approach and anticipate puberty.Rates of persistence of gender dysphoria from childhood into adolescence or adulthoodvary. In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistencehas ranged from 12% to 50%. Persistence of gender dysphoria is modestly correlated withdimensional measures of severity ascertained at the time of a childhood baseline assessment.In one sample of natal males, lower socioeconomic background was also modestlycorrelated with persistence. It is unclear if particular therapeutic approaches to genderdysphoria in children are related to rates of long-term persistence. Extant follow-up samplesconsisted of children receiving no formal therapeutic intervention or receiving therapeuticinterventions of various types, ranging from active efforts to reduce genderdysphoria to a more neutral, "watchful waiting" approach. It is unclear if children "encouraged"or supported to live socially in the desired gender will show higher rates of persistence,since such children have not yet been followed longitudinally in a systematicmanner. For both natal male and female children showing persistence, almost all aresexually attracted to individuals of their natal sex. For natal male children whose genderdysphoria does not persist, the majority are androphilic (sexually attracted to males) and oftenself-identify as gay or homosexual (ranging from 63% to 100%). In natal female childrenwhose gender dysphoria does not persist, the percentage who are gynephilic (sexuallyattracted to females) and self-identify as lesbian is lower (ranging from 32% to 50%).In both adolescent and adult natal males, there are two broad trajectories for developmentof gender dysphoria: early onset and late onset. Early-onset gender dysphoria starts inchildhood and continues into adolescence and adulthood; or, there is an intermittent periodin which the gender dysphoria desists and these individuals self-identify as gay or homosexual,followed by recurrence of gender dysphoria. Late-onset gender dysphoria occursaround puberty or much later in life. Some of these individuals report having had a desireto be of the other gender in childhood that was not expressed verbally to others. Others donot recall any signs of childhood gender dysphoria. For adolescent males with late-onsetgender dysphoria, parents often report surprise because they did not see signs of genderdysphoria during childhood. Expressions of anatomic dysphoria are more common andsalient in adolescents and adults once secondary sex characteristics have developed.Adolescent and adult natal males with early-onset gender dysphoria are almost alwayssexually attracted to men (androphilic). Adolescents and adults with late-onset genderdysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement. Themajority of these individuals are gynephilic or sexually attracted to other posttransitionnatal males with late-onset gender dysphoria. A substantial percentage of adult maleswith late-onset gender dysphoria cohabit with or are married to natal females. After gendertransition, many self-identify as lesbian. Among adult natal males with gender dysphoria,the early-onset group seeks out clinical care for hormone treatment and reassignmentsurgery at an earlier age than does the late-onset group. The late-onset group may have morefluctuations in the degree of gender dysphoria and be more ambivalent about and lesslikely satisfied after gender reassignment surgery.In both adolescent and adult natal females, the most common course is the early-onsetform of gender dysphoria. The late-onset form is much less common in natal females comparedwith natal males. As in natal males with gender dysphoria, there may have been aperiod in which the gender dysphoria desisted and these individuals self-identified as lesbian;however, with recurrence of gender dysphoria, clinical consultation is sought, oftenwith the desire for hormone treatment and reassignment surgery. Parents of natal adolescentfemales with the late-onset form also report surprise, as no signs of childhood genderdysphoria were evident. Expressions of anatomic dysphoria are much more common andsalient in adolescents and adults than in children.Adolescent and adult natal females with early-onset gender dysphoria are almostalways gynephilic. Adolescents and adults with the late-onset form of gender dysphoriaare usually androphilic and after gender transition self-identify as gay men. Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement.Gender dysphoria in association with a disorder of sex development. Most individualswith a disorder of sex development who develop gender dysphoria have already come tomedical attention at an early age. For many, starting at birth, issues of gender assignmentwere raised by physicians and parents. Moreover, as infertility is quite common for thisgroup, physicians are more willing to perform cross-sex hormone treatments and genitalsurgery before adulthood.Disorders of sex development in general are frequently associated with gender-atypicalbehavior starting in early childhood. However, in the majority of cases, this does notlead to gender dysphoria. As individuals with a disorder of sex development becomeaware of their medical history and condition, many experience uncertainty about theirgender, as opposed to developing a firm conviction that they are another gender. However,most do not progress to gender transition. Gender dysphoria and gender transitionmay vary considerably as a function of a disorder of sex development, its severity, and assignedgender.Risk and Prognostic FactorsTemperamental. For individuals with gender dysphoria without a disorder of sex development,atypical gender behavior among individuals with early-onset gender dysphoriadevelops in early preschool age, and it is possible that a high degree of atypicalitymakes the development of gender dysphoria and its persistence into adolescence andadulthood more likely.Environmental. Among individuals with gender dysphoria without a disorder of sex development,males with gender dysphoria (in both childhood and adolescence) more commonlyhave older brothers than do males without the condition. Additional predisposingfactors under consideration, especially in individuals with late-onset gender dysphoria (adolescence,adulthpod), include habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia(i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman) andother forms of more general social, psychological, or developmental problems.Genetic and physiological. For individuals with gender dysphoria without a disorder ofsex development, some genetic contribution is suggested by evidence for (weak) familialityof transsexualism among nontwin siblings, increased concordance for transsexualismin monozygotic compared with dizygotic same-sex twins, and some degree of heritabilityof gender dysphoria. As to endocrine findings, no endogenous systemic abnormalities insex-hormone levels have been found in 46,XY individuals, whereas there appear to be increasedandrogen levels (in the range found in hirsute women but far below normal malelevels) in 46,XX individuals. Overall, current evidence is insufficient to label gender dysphoriawithout a disorder of sex development as a form of intersexuality limited to the centralnervous system.In gender dysphoria associated with a disorder of sex development, the likelihood oflater gender dysphoria is increased if prenatal production and utilization (via receptorsensitivity) of androgens are grossly atypical relative to what is usually seen in individualswith the same assigned gender. Examples include 46,XY individuals with a history of normalmale prenatal hormone milieu but inborn nonhormonal genital defects (as in cloacalbladder exstrophy or penile agenesis) and who have been assigned to the female gender.The likelihood of gender dysphoria is further enhanced by additional, prolonged, highlygender-atypical postnatal androgen exposure with somatic virilization as may occur in female-raisedand noncastrated 46,XY individuals with 5-alpha reductase-2 deficiency or17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency or in female-raised 46,XX individualswith classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia with prolonged periods of non-adherence toglucocorticoid replacement therapy. However, the prenatal androgen milieu is moreclosely related to gendered behavior than to gender identity. Many individuals with disordersof sex development and markedly gender-atypical behavior do not develop genderdysphoria. Thus, gender-atypical behavior by itself should not be inteφreted as an indicatorof current or future gender dysphoria. There appears to be a higher rate of genderdysphoria and patient-initiated gender change from assigned female to male than from assignedmale to female in 46,XY individuals with a disorder of sex development.Culture-Related Diagnostic issuesIndividuals with gender dysphoria have been reported across many countries and cultures.The equivalent of gender dysphoria has also been reported in individuals living incultures with institutionalized gender categories other than male or female. It is unclearwhether with these individuals the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria would be met.Diagnostic iVlaricersIndividuals with a somatic disorder of sex development show some correlation of finalgender identity outcome with the degree of prenatal androgen production and utilization.However, the correlation is not robust enough for the biological factor, where ascertainable,to replace a detailed and comprehensive diagnostic interview evaluation for genderdysphoria.Functional Consequences of Gender DysphoriaPreoccupation with cross-gender wishes may develop at all ages after the first 2-3 years ofchildhood and often interfere with daily activities. In older children, failure to developage-typical same-sex peer relationships and skills may lead to isolation from peer groupsand to distress. Some children may refuse to attend school because of teasing and harass-ment or pressure to dress in attire associated with their assigned sex. Also in adolescentsand adults, preoccupation with cross-gender wishes often interferes with daily activities.Relationship difficulties, including sexual relationship problems, are common, and functioningat school or at work may be impaired. Gender dysphoria, along with atypicalgender expression, is associated with high levels of stigmatization, discrimination, andvictimization, leading to negative self-concept, increased rates of mental disorder comorbidity,school dropout, and economic marginalization, including unemployment, with attendantsocial and mental health risks, especially in individuals from resource-poor familybackgrounds. In addition, these individuals' access to health services and mental healthservices may be impeded by structural barriers, such as institutional discomfort or inexperiencein working with this patient population.Differential DiagnosisNonconfonnity to gender roles. Gender dysphoria should be distinguished from simplenonconformity to stereotypical gender role behavior by the strong desire to be of anothergender than the assigned one and by the extent and pervasiveness of gender-variantactivities and interests. The diagnosis is not meant to merely describe nonconformity tostereotypical gender role behavior (e.g., "tomboyism" in girls, "girly-boy" behavior inboys, occasional cross-dressing in adult men). Given the increased openness of atypicalgender expressions by individuals across the entire range of the transgender spectrum, itis important that the clinical diagnosis be limited to those individuals whose distress andimpairment meet the specified criteria.Transvestic disorder. Transvestic disorder occurs in heterosexual (or bisexual) adolescentand adult males (rarely in females) for whom cross-dressing behavior generates sexualexcitement and causes distress and/or impairment without drawing their primarygender into question. It is occasionally accompanied by gender dysphoria. An individualwith transvestic disorder who also has clinically significant gender dysphoria can be givenboth diagnoses. In many cases of late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males,transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor.Body dysmoφhic disorder. An individual with body dysmorphic disorder focuses onthe alteration or removal of a specific body part because it is perceived as abnormally formed,not because it represents a repudiated assigned gender. When an individual's presentationmeets criteria for both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphic disorder, both diagnosescan be given. Individuals wishing to have a healthy limb amputated (termed bysome body integrity identity disorder) because it makes them feel more "complete" usuallydo not wish to change gender, but rather desire to live as an amputee or a disabled person.Schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. In schizophrenia, there may rarely bedelusions of belonging to some other gender. In the absence of psychotic symptoms, insistenceby an individual with gender dysphoria that he or she is of some other gender isnot considered a delusion. Schizophrenia (or other psychotic disorders) and gender dysphoriamay co-occur.Other clinical presentations. Some individuals with an emasculinization desire whodevelop an alternative, nonmale/nonfemale gender identity do have a presentation thatmeets criteria for gender dysphoria. However, some males seek castration and/or penectomyfor aesthetic reasons or to remove psychological effects of androgens without changingmale identity; in these cases, the criteria for gender dysphoria are not met.ComorbidityClinically referred children with gender dysphoria show elevated levels of emotional andbehavioral problems—most commonly, anxiety, disruptive and impulse-control, and de-pressive disorders. In prepubertal children, increasing age is associated with having morebehavioral or emotional problems; this is related to the increasing non-acceptance of gender-variantbehavior by others. In older children, gender-variant behavior often leads topeer ostracism, which may lead to more behavioral problems. The prevalence of mentalhealth problems differs among cultures; these differences may also be related to differencesin attitudes toward gender variance in children. However, also in some non-Westem cultures,anxiety has been found to be relatively common in individuals with gender dysphoria,even in cultures with accepting attitudes toward gender-variant behavior. Autism spectrumdisorder is more prevalent in clinically referred children with gender dysphoria thanin the general population. Clinically referred adolescents with gender dysphoria appear tohave comorbid mental disorders, with anxiety and depressive disorders being the mostcommon. As in children, autism spectrum disorder is more prevalent in clinically referredadolescents with gender dysphoria than in the general population. Clinically referredadults with gender dysphoria may have coexisting mental health problems, most commonlyanxiety and depressive disorders.Other Specified Gender Dysphoria302.6 (F64.8)This category applies to presentations in which symptoms characteristic of gender dysphoriathat cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or otherimportant areas of functioning predominate but do not meet the full criteria for gender dysphoria.The other specified gender dysphoria category is used in situations in which theclinician chooses to communicate the specific reason that the presentation does not meetthe criteria for gender dysphoria. This is done by recording “other specified gender dysphoria”followed by the specific reason (e.g., “brief gender dysphoria”).An example of a presentation that can be specified using the “other specified” designationis the following:The current disturbance meets symptom criteria for gender dysphoria, but theduration is iess than 6 months.Unspecified Gender Dysphoria302.6 (F64.9)This category applies to presentations in which symptoms characteristic of gender dysphoriathat cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or otherimportant areas of functioning predominate but do not meet the full criteria for genderdysphoria. The unspecified gender dysphoria category is used in situations in which theclinician chooses not to specify the reason that the criteria are not met for gender dysphoria,and includes presentations in which there is insufficient information to make a morespecific diagnosis.

http://i.imgur.com/RSP0Kty.jpg


Whelp that copypastaed thorribly. Read the actual pdf if interested.


The APA has however made the following statements

APA POSITION STATEMENTS
The American Psychiatric Association:
1. Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments.
2. Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment.
3. Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician.
The American Psychiatric Association:
1. Supports laws that protect the civil rights of transgender and gender variant individuals.
2. Urges the repeal of laws and policies that discriminate against transgender and gender variant people.
3. Opposes all public and private discrimination against transgender and gender variant individuals in such areas as health care, employment, housing, public accommodation, education, and licensing.
4. Declares that no burden of proof of such judgment, capacity, or reliability shall be placed upon these individuals greater than that imposed on any other persons.

--Taken From ( http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/08/21/721441/apa-issues-position-statements-supporting-transgender-care-and-civil-rights/ )

The APA's position on the issue is that it does recognize that trans-affirmative treatment and aid has a positive impact. However, the psychiatrists or therapist should also help explore the gender-identity(s) with the patient especially if the patient is a youth, as it may be transient if there isn't a long history of identifying as the other gender and receiving treatment.



*Will Henceforth be shortened to DSM

**Note: The WHO and I believe some other countries have their own Psychiatric Organizations but the APA and the WHO are the highest authorities on these subjects.

Here's the guidelines issued on treatment of Gender Dysphoria

https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf


From re-reading what is put forth by the DSM, the root problem of most people's wishes to change or identify as the opposite sex of birth is due to perceived gender roles in culture/society extended beyond even the male/female roles in some societies which have even more gender roles(yes you can have more than 2 gender roles in a society, think about people in cultures who are allowed to reproduce while others are limited to specific tasks in life as an example)

Boop

[ThePaladin]

You can go to thr sexond post and see i was indeed quoting exclusively the first post

[PowersThatBe]

gen·der dys·pho·ri·a
nounMEDICINE
the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex.

Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's physical gender and the gender he or she identifies as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person is very uncomfortable with the gender they were born.

trans·gen·der
transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender./ noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth.

Just some definitions for ya'll's clarification of what you're talking about.

[RLVG]

I think people forget that the brain developes before the body and the fact that there's people born differently, E.G. Intersex, Tomboy (the other term), Hermaphrodites, etc.

It's as much of a "mental disorder" as it is for someone to try and compensate for something they've lost or that they're fixing something that is broken.

Lost a finger in an accident? Get a new fake one that works in harmony with the movement of your bones.
Too many would rather get that fake finger than "live with it".
Burn victims that has their face melted would rather take a surgery to get their face up to shape than to permanentally look like a Quasimodo.
Would this be considered a mental disorder?



Biologically, the transgenders "know" that they're wrong and they're trying to Correct it.
The brain chemistry punishes them by denying rewards such as endorphines and other various chemicals produced, essentially denying them happiness. (Even when unaware of the issue)

If anything, it's the body and not the actual mind. This makes it closer to a syndrome if anything.
This makes people have gender dysphoria without realising it which makes it more difficult for them.

Sciences prove this as well, but the culture and church are blacking this information out because it's extremely contraversial.
The cure is ironically the transition to make the mind and body accept eachothers, not simply that the brain accepts the body.

If they're unaware of the issue, things will get worse mentally when they finally realize it.



If you need something definitive then there's chromosones (XX, XY, XXY, CX, CXY, XXYY), the dominant "man" and "female" genes (I think it's called Mus and Ani), basic brain chemistry and subconcious function of brain waves / patterns.

[ThePaladin]

gen·der dys·pho·ri·a
nounMEDICINE
the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex.

Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's physical gender and the gender he or she identifies as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person is very uncomfortable with the gender they were born.

trans·gen·der
transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender./ noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth.

Just some definitions for ya'll's clarification of what you're talking about.

Gender Identity Disorder is also no longer recognized by the APA since DSM-V.

[PowersThatBe]

Gender Identity Disorder is also no longer recognized by the APA since DSM-V.

Still brought up in this convo.

[ThePaladin]

Still brought up in this convo.

I was pointing out that anyone who says that as a reason is using outdated guidelines/information/etc and therefore is null.

[PowersThatBe]

I was pointing out that anyone who says that as a reason is using outdated guidelines/information/etc and therefore is null.

Still pointing it out because someone used it.

[yzb25]

PowersThatBe, I don't plan to go anywhere with this nor am I trying to build up to some kind of "trap" or "argument", I'm asking this sincerely.

In both the video you linked about transgendered people and the anecdotal case you gave of your own experience with homosexuality, the homosexuality and transexuality were largely innate (existing from birth or perhaps a little after).

This portrayal of LGBT as well as gender and sexuality in general as innate is quite common. However, I always felt this approach was extremely reductive. What makes you homosexual or bisexual or whatever is extremely hazy in the first place, and so it follows that the influences of your sexuality is similarly hazy.

I would be grateful to hear you share some more thoughts about what makes someone homosexual, what likely influences / encourages homosexuality, that sort of shit. Because the idea that a lab-man can look at your DNA and go "yup you've got the gay gene! You're a homosexual!" is a huge oversimplification of this matter.

[PowersThatBe]

PowersThatBe, I don't plan to go anywhere with this nor am I trying to build up to some kind of "trap" or "argument", I'm asking this sincerely.

In both the video you linked about transgendered people and the anecdotal case you gave of your own experience with homosexuality, the homosexuality and transexuality were largely innate (existing from birth or perhaps a little after).

This portrayal of LGBT as well as gender and sexuality in general as innate is quite common. However, I always felt this approach was extremely reductive. What makes you homosexual or bisexual or whatever is extremely hazy in the first place, and so it follows that the influences of your sexuality is similarly hazy.

I would be grateful to hear you share some more thoughts about what makes someone homosexual, what likely influences / encourages homosexuality, that sort of shit. Because the idea that a lab-man can look at your DNA and go "yup you've got the gay gene! You're a homosexual!" is a huge oversimplification of this matter.

What makes you straight? What makes you like women? You're born straight, I'm born gay. It's really that simple.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11922975/The-latest-gay-gene-study-gives-no-comfort-to-homophobes.html

[ThePaladin]

PowersThatBe, I don't plan to go anywhere with this nor am I trying to build up to some kind of "trap" or "argument", I'm asking this sincerely.

In both the video you linked about transgendered people and the anecdotal case you gave of your own experience with homosexuality, the homosexuality and transexuality were largely innate (existing from birth or perhaps a little after).

This portrayal of LGBT as well as gender and sexuality in general as innate is quite common. However, I always felt this approach was extremely reductive. What makes you homosexual or bisexual or whatever is extremely hazy in the first place, and so it follows that the influences of your sexuality is similarly hazy.

I would be grateful to hear you share some more thoughts about what makes someone homosexual, what likely influences / encourages homosexuality, that sort of shit. Because the idea that a lab-man can look at your DNA and go "yup you've got the gay gene! You're a homosexual!" is a huge oversimplification of this matter.

IIRC, there are actually scientific studies done on what causes homesexuality.

For example in male homosexuals, a stated cause in some is that while one is still in the womb, the mother's body may see the baby as an anomaly and attempt to feminize it with hormones and such, thereby causing attraction to the male sex like the mother.

[yzb25]

What makes you straight? What makes you like women? You're born straight, I'm born gay. It's really that simple.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11922975/The-latest-gay-gene-study-gives-no-comfort-to-homophobes.html

I don't call myself straight though. :P

I've never actually met a homosexual with such a clearcut sexuality. All males who call themselves homosexual that I've known have felt varying degrees of attraction to females, and varying degrees of preference for peen over body, for example. Obviously, I've only known 5 homosexual males - I'm not calling that representative - It's just there's lots of different facets to human sexuality and to imply that all homosexuals share a common experience of innate homosexuality is reductive.

It doesn't seem I can get what I'm looking for from you, and I'll probably just end up frustrating you.

At the very least, I feel like I've gleaned a kind of character from reading your posts. Thankyou for sharing.

P.S. It seems you were using the study to demonstrate that human sexuality is a labman reading your DNA, but the article itself doesn't actually agree with that lol XD

"Moreover, Dr Ngun’s study claims to be able to predict the sexual orientation of males with “up to 70 percent accuracy.” I get sceptical when I read “up to.” Even at a maximum of 70 per cent, it still leaves 30 per cent unpredictable.
Contrary to the way many people may interpret this study, biological and environmental influences, which I accept, are not the same causes. They may predispose a person to one sexuality rather than another. But that's all. Predisposition and determination are two different things.
There is a major problem with any theories that posit the biological or environmental programming of sexual orientation from pre- or post birth. If heterosexuality and homosexuality are determined and fixed by early childhood — and therefore mutually exclusive and unchangeable — how do we explain bisexuality or people who, suddenly in mid-life, switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality (or vice versa)? We can't.
The Kinsey researchers famously reported the case of a happily married young woman who, ten years into her marriage, unexpectedly fell in love with a female friend. Divorcing her husband, she set up house with this woman. Many years later, despite a fulfilling on-going lesbian relationship, she had an equally satisfying affair with a man. Examples of sexual flexibility, like that of this woman, don't square with theories of rigid erotic predestination.
If gayness was only explainable in biological terms we would expect it to appear in the same proportions, and in similar forms, in all cultures and all epochs. As the anthropologists Clellan Ford and Frank Beach demonstrated in Patterns Of Sexual Behaviour (1965), far from being cross-culturally uniform and stable, both the incidence and expressions of same-sex desire vary vastly between different societies. This variation gives credibility to the environmental factors suggested by Dr Ngun’s research.
Given that sexual orientation seems likely to have a complex and diverse range of biological, environmental and cultural influences, homophobic bids to eliminate it look set to fail."

[RLVG]

the mother's body may see the baby as an anomaly

This is unsettling to know.

[yzb25]

IIRC, there are actually scientific studies done on what causes homesexuality.

For example in male homosexuals, a stated cause in some is that while one is still in the womb, the mother's body may see the baby as an anomaly and attempt to feminize it with hormones and such, thereby causing attraction to the male sex like the mother.

Yeah, there are many scientific studies done on homosexuality.

I've also seen good evidence that older male siblings can greatly raise the chances of a boy being homosexual (yup, go team incest).

Of course, half of these studies aren't even reproducible, and the study PowersThatBe showed hadn't even been bloody peer-reviewed yet. Not to mention that labmen are the last people I'd look for to explain sex and romance.

But our world looooves to interpret human nature with social studies. As long as you can find a study to cling to, you sleep well at night. No-one ever considers that the artists and philosophers or a simple fucking chat about one's feelings have gotten leaps and bounds further than the endless river of surveys, compulsive case studies, and other unrepresentative bollocks

Sorry for being so edgy this sunday hahah.

[ThePaladin]

Yeah, there are many scientific studies done on homosexuality.

I've also seen good evidence that older male siblings can greatly raise the chances of a boy being homosexual (yup, go team incest).

Of course, half of these studies aren't even reproducible, and the study PowersThatBe showed hadn't even been bloody peer-reviewed yet. Not to mention that labmen are the last people I'd look for to explain sex and romance.

But our world looooves to interpret human nature with social studies. As long as you can find a study to cling to, you sleep well at night. No-one ever considers that the artists and philosophers or a simple fucking chat about one's feelings have gotten leaps and bounds further than the endless river of surveys, compulsive case studies, and other unrepresentative bollocks

Sorry for being so edgy this sunday hahah.

BeepBoop


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqKsXdokCM

[PowersThatBe]

I don't call myself straight though. :P

I've never actually met a homosexual with such a clearcut sexuality. All males who call themselves homosexual that I've known have felt varying degrees of attraction to females, and varying degrees of preference for peen over body, for example. Obviously, I've only known 5 homosexual males - I'm not calling that representative - It's just there's lots of different facets to human sexuality and to imply that all homosexuals share a common experience of innate homosexuality is reductive.

It doesn't seem I can get what I'm looking for from you, and I'll probably just end up frustrating you.

At the very least, I feel like I've gleaned a kind of character from reading your posts. Thankyou for sharing.

P.S. It seems you were using the study to demonstrate that human sexuality is a labman reading your DNA, but the article itself doesn't actually agree with that lol XD

"Moreover, Dr Ngun’s study claims to be able to predict the sexual orientation of males with “up to 70 percent accuracy.” I get sceptical when I read “up to.” Even at a maximum of 70 per cent, it still leaves 30 per cent unpredictable.
Contrary to the way many people may interpret this study, biological and environmental influences, which I accept, are not the same causes. They may predispose a person to one sexuality rather than another. But that's all. Predisposition and determination are two different things.
There is a major problem with any theories that posit the biological or environmental programming of sexual orientation from pre- or post birth. If heterosexuality and homosexuality are determined and fixed by early childhood — and therefore mutually exclusive and unchangeable — how do we explain bisexuality or people who, suddenly in mid-life, switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality (or vice versa)? We can't.
The Kinsey researchers famously reported the case of a happily married young woman who, ten years into her marriage, unexpectedly fell in love with a female friend. Divorcing her husband, she set up house with this woman. Many years later, despite a fulfilling on-going lesbian relationship, she had an equally satisfying affair with a man. Examples of sexual flexibility, like that of this woman, don't square with theories of rigid erotic predestination.
If gayness was only explainable in biological terms we would expect it to appear in the same proportions, and in similar forms, in all cultures and all epochs. As the anthropologists Clellan Ford and Frank Beach demonstrated in Patterns Of Sexual Behaviour (1965), far from being cross-culturally uniform and stable, both the incidence and expressions of same-sex desire vary vastly between different societies. This variation gives credibility to the environmental factors suggested by Dr Ngun’s research.
Given that sexual orientation seems likely to have a complex and diverse range of biological, environmental and cultural influences, homophobic bids to eliminate it look set to fail."

Well, I'm not attempting to speak for all LGBTQ+ people, and sure, people who are gay have had experiences with the opposite sex. Sure, some people have been married, had sex, and other such acts. Sociologically speaking, it is believed everyone is born bisexual, and as we develop, we either stay bi-sexual or become attracted to either same sex or opposite sex. There are varying degrees of study, that all contribute to the idea that sexual orientation is biological in nature.

In the end sexuality is fluid, in my opinion, however societal norms do a lot to contribute to people repressing their natural desires. I know at least 3 friends whose father's all turned out to be gay after having 3 or 4 children each, and each being married for a number of years. Just because you are born gay, straight, intersex, etc. does not mean you cannot be attracted to someone in different ways.

I believe there are three types of attraction.

Physical/sexual
Emotional
Mental

Each of these focusing on different areas of personality. Physical/sexual = obvious, emotional = you connect really strongly with someone on a caring/loving/emotional level, sometimes not ending in a physical relationship. Then there's mental which to mean means you are attracted to someone's intelligence and their logic.

Now your question was to me, "what makes you a homosexual." What makes me a homosexual is that I was born a homosexual, meaning, from a VERY young age I was attracted to boys. I had 3 girl friends, (one of which is a married lesbian today <3) ... but I always felt strong connections to men, even when I dated a girl there was just no "spark" I just wasn't into it. Guys on the other hand, some ignited something within me.

Generally speaking, children know by about age 14 if they are gay or not. This is based on a number of studies. I've trained in LGBTQ trainings and have lead some in the past.

I don't mean for you to think I'm coming off as all gay people are a certain way. They can choose to live how they want, but, just know that biologically speaking they're born how they're born, and if they chose to fight against that or choose to focus on something other than physical attraction, then I'm sure they can still find happiness or fulfillment. No one person is the same, but when you ask "what makes you a homosexual." Well, I was born homosexual.

[PowersThatBe]

Yeah, there are many scientific studies done on homosexuality.

I've also seen good evidence that older male siblings can greatly raise the chances of a boy being homosexual (yup, go team incest).

Of course, half of these studies aren't even reproducible, and the study PowersThatBe showed hadn't even been bloody peer-reviewed yet. Not to mention that labmen are the last people I'd look for to explain sex and romance.

But our world looooves to interpret human nature with social studies. As long as you can find a study to cling to, you sleep well at night. No-one ever considers that the artists and philosophers or a simple fucking chat about one's feelings have gotten leaps and bounds further than the endless river of surveys, compulsive case studies, and other unrepresentative bollocks

Sorry for being so edgy this sunday hahah.

I thought the article did a good job of explaining it, so I picked it. IDC if it was peer reviewed or not, I was just trying to help you to understand, since you claim to want to understand.

What do you identify as, if not straight?

[Mesk514]

I have proof that PTB said I could be his once and a lifetime female fuck.

[SuperJack]

RLVG

Look what you have caused. Seems like everyone who posted is now confused about their own gender and are venting their frustration into opinions.

[PowersThatBe]

I have proof that PTB said I could be his once and a lifetime female fuck.

This is true. Also, me personally I am open to falling for anyone, despite their gender/identity. However, I've only found myself to be attracted to men overwhelmingly more than any female I've been attracted to.

[RLVG]

@RLVG (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=6656)

Look what you have caused. Seems like everyone who posted is now confused about their own gender and are venting their frustration into opinions.

Oh no, looks like I've become a Gender Villian.

It's a very controversial topic though so quite often it leads to a long debate.

[Mesk514]

This is true. Also, me personally I am open to falling for anyone, despite their gender/identity. However, I've only found myself to be attracted to men overwhelmingly more than any female I've been attracted to.

dude, you just need 15 minutes with me and i'll fix all your problems.

[ThePaladin]

Oh no, looks like I've become a Gender Villian.

It's a very controversial topic though so quite often it leads to a long debate.

We have proven the butterfly effect.

By norway passsing a law the sc2mafia community now has proven to be very divisive in their political opinions which we previously didn't know, which will change people's reactions to each other in games from now on.

Good Job RLVG

Science at work.

[yzb25]

I thought the article did a good job of explaining it, so I picked it. IDC if it was peer reviewed or not, I was just trying to help you to understand, since you claim to want to understand.

What do you identify as, if not straight?

Thankyou for the long post. That was what I was trying to get from you with the first post, but I couldn't think of a less obscure way of asking for it.

I don't identify as anything. I put my penis in what I want to put my penis in, given that it gives informed consent and all that shit, and have never felt a need to "define" my sexuality or gender, because I don't use either to help construct my "identity", whatever the fuck that is. As you said, we're all bisexual on an abstract level, though I have a clear preference for the opposite sex, I've occasionally felt an attraction to men before, so *shrug*.

Anyone can feel physical pleasure from anything, given the correct context, and people lean towards feminity or masculinity in different contexts. The "he's homosexual, he's straight" and the "he's a boy, she's a girl" thing seems to come from people with a very traditionalist view on sexuality and gender, so it's rather unfitting for us "enlightened progressives" to use such labels too, dontcha think? :3

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

RLVG

Look what you have caused. Seems like everyone who posted is now confused about their own gender and are venting their frustration into opinions.

I would go gay for this man.


dude, you just need 15 minutes with me and i'll fix all your problems.

What problem? He doesn't have a problem, you saying he has a problem? Rudeeeeee


We have proven the butterfly effect.

By norway passsing a law the sc2mafia community now has proven to be very divisive in their political opinions which we previously didn't know, which will change people's reactions to each other in games from now on.

Good Job RLVG

Science at work.

Nah you will just claim mafia and solve the game for us~.




#rainbowflag

[RLVG]

We have proven the butterfly effect.

By norway passsing a law the sc2mafia community now has proven to be very divisive in their political opinions which we previously didn't know, which will change people's reactions to each other in games from now on.

Good Job @RLVG (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=6656)

Science at work.

This will conclude by a nuclear explosion in Ohio, somehow.

At least I know some political views of people here.

[ThePaladin]

This will conclude by a nuclear explosion in Ohio, somehow.

At least I know some political views of people here.

Ummm....

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/02/breaking/unconfirmed-nuclear-detonation/index.html

How.....

[Quick]

I don't think being gay is a choice per se, but then again I don't really believe in choice so, meh. If you have to ask I'll just say I am a determinist.

[Quick]

Nice tu quoque attempt. So many fallacies from the bigots in this thread.

Just asking to see if you know what constitutes as a mental illness. I'll give you a hint, its an abnormality within brain chemistry.

[Ash]

@Ash (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=2697)

Not every transgender individual experiences gender disphoria. Gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

I'm actually starting to believe that you're retarded. You're starting to pick at straws. Yes, technically gender nonconformity by itself is not a mental disorder. If you're a child you need to have 6 of the following 8 conditions in order to be classified with Gender Dysphoria for at least 6 months.

1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender(or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
2. In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating femaleattire: or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typicalmasculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminineclothing.
3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.
4. A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engagedin by the other gender.
5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.
6. In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games,and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assignedgender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.
7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy.
8. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that matchone’s experienced gender.

As for adults, you only need to have 2 of the following 6 conditions for at least 6 months.

1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primaryand/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipatedsecondary sex characteristics).
2.A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics becauseof a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or inyoung adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondarysex characteristics).
3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the othergender.
4. A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different fromone’s assigned gender).
5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender differentfrom one’s assigned gender).
6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender(or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

So basically, not all "transgender" children may be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria right away, because you have to meet 6 of the 8 standards. However, as for adults and adolescents, that's different because you only need to meet 2 of the 6. "Transexual" is kind of a loose term, but we can safely say that those individuals that undergo sex change DO have this disorder because they automatically fit into adult category #2 and #4. On top of this, most transexuals (not all, but most from what I've seen from personal experience and videos) automatically fit #5 and #6. If an individual claims to be a transgender, and they only manage to meet 1 of the 6 standards, then they must be a very rare case.


Paladin gave an incomplete story with that reference to the DSM. It used to be Gender Identity Disorder, which is what you were referring to, a classification of mental illness, but now has been reclassified.

Homosexuality used to also be classified as a mental disorder and has been removed as it is now understood to not be. Get with the times you dinosaur.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. Gender Dysphoria is a type of Gender Identity Disorder. Reclassification does not make my point invalid. Also I'm not sure why you're bringing up the topic of homosexuality. Did I ever say that homosexuality was a mental disorder? Don't put words into my mouth.


I see MZ took ducks cock out of his mouth for a second. How's it taste?

Maybe they'll place his cock in your new vagina next, eh?


Cite your sources that sex reassignment doesn't help. Prove your points. And no, everyone is entitled to their private business. YOU are not entitled to know what anyone in your society is doing if it has nothing to do with you. Stop with your retarded logic.

Your last few sentences prove you're nothing more than an ignorant bigot who clearly has no fucking idea what he's talking about.

ALSO: Educate your fucking self, it's not just LETS DO SURGERY. SNIP SNIP. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx

ALSO: READ THIS: The fucking regret and shame they feel isn't because of the surgery, or any treatment, it comes from the fucking bullying of people in society like YOU. http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm -- skip to the bottom, they have a TL;DR

It's a long and sometimes painful process because its hard to change, but when they do change they feel complete in most cases, they feel they are finally where they should, they're the happiest they've been. Not everyone get's the surgery, not everyone is the same. But every one of you ignorant assholes who thing you can control someone are. Their life is not your fucking business, it does not impact you whatsoever, and don't even say that it does. Because it fucking doesn't, get your small minded ass out of your poop-hole. So sick of people like you who just spew ignorant bullshit because you're too fucking stupid to realize what you're saying is both stupid and backwards.

More ad hominem. You keep saying that the regret and shame they feel is a result of "bullying" however that is not true for all cases. That's a fallacy of the single cause. I already said that some transexuals do feel satisfied, but some simply don't because of how much pain they have to undergo through surgery, and because their body may not feel "natural". I'm sure there are other causes, but I'm not a fucking expert. Here's an example of one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEa8kNiKyDk Skip to 27:56.

Even if harassment and bullying etc. were the prime cause of depression and anxiety, why should we encourage a treatment that society frowns upon?


Its not a mental illness. You said technically Ash was right when he's completely off the mark.

Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness. You're really stupid.


Then call it a condition not an illness. Illness makes it seem like schizophrenia, which its not.

Ash is conflating gender disphoria with being transgender, and flat out stating that all transgender individuals are mentally ill. There is nothing "technically correct" about that statement and instead of defending yourself over agreeing with him on that you should correct him.

Your argument is very weak.


Ash is saying all people who are transgender have GID, which is untrue. Some who have GID are transgendered, some who have GID are not. So technically, no he's not correct, and he's a bigoted asshole.

Can you give me an example instead of just calling me a bigoted asshole?


Gender Identity Disorder is also no longer recognized by the APA since DSM-V.
Gender Dysphoria falls under it. It's basically the same thing. No need to get technical over it.

[ThePaladin]

Gender Dysphoria falls under it. It's basically the same thing. No need to get technical over it.

It is different since an "identity" tends to be related to separate personality(s).

[Quick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEa8kNiKyDk

:sick:

[RLVG]

I don't get why people change their gender twice tbh.

[PowersThatBe]

Ash -- society once frowned upon black people being seen as anything more than property. Your arguments are shit.

Homosexuality was once a disorder, and sodomy laws were once on the books. History has shown that society is often wrong about the "norm." So no, anyone who is transgendered should not be forced to live in the body they don't feel comfortable in if it's their choice to change. Therapy is already an option for people who want it. Your arguments lack any substance and it reeks of an extremely closed minded and ignorant opinion.

[Cryptonic]

How would you treat your child if you found out they were LGBTQ

[Quick]

How would you treat your child if you found out they were LGBTQ

If I'm being honest, I would be concerned. LGBT statistically have more mental health concerns and are often troubled. I would be concerned for my childs happiness most of all.

[Cryptonic]

If I'm being honest, I would be concerned. LGBT statistically have more mental health concerns and are often troubled. I would be concerned for my childs happiness most of all.

You do realized they are troubled because of the way society treats them, though?

[BananaCucho]

I see there's a buttload of retarded responses to go through.

[Ash]

How would you treat your child if you found out they were LGBTQ
I would treat them like normal, and take them to church and make them a proud Christian. No son of mine is going to become an atheist cuck.

[Cryptonic]

I would treat them like normal, and take them to church and make them a proud Christian. No son of mine is going to become an atheist cuck.

Would you tell your child they are mentally ill and try to make them straight?

[BananaCucho]

Would you tell your child they are mentally ill and try to make them straight?

He would try to cast the demons outta him

[Ash]

Would you tell your child they are mentally ill and try to make them straight?
Homosexuals are actually superior to heteros. They could become a proud homosexual Christian.

[BananaCucho]

Homosexuals are actually superior to heteros. They could become a proud homosexual Christian.

And if they are transgendered?

[Quick]

You do realized they are troubled because of the way society treats them, though?

Possibly, but the lines are a bit blurry to tell the truth.

[ThePaladin]

I would treat them like normal, and take them to church and make them a proud Christian. No son of mine is going to become an atheist cuck.

What would you do if your son became an atheist/non-religious or switched religions?


(Cause we aren't touching on enough sensitive topics)

[RLVG]

I would treat them like normal, and take them to church and make them a proud Christian. No son of mine is going to become an atheist cuck.

You do realise that the Church will (usually, majority) actually make them worse by a bullshit public excorcism, scaring them and usually leading to physical punishment in order to "Teach them" to keep quiet, while never fixing the issue? And most of these lead to throwing the kid out on the street or being adopted?

The suicide and homicide rates caused of this thing is enormous.



Don't take them to the church to "cure" transexuality or homosexuality.

[BananaCucho]

You do realise that the Church will (usually, majority) actually make them worse by a bullshit public excorcism, scaring them and usually leading to physical punishment in order to "Teach them" to keep quiet, while never fixing the issue? And most of these lead to throwing the kid out on the street or being adopted?

The suicide and homicide rates caused of this thing is enormous.



Don't take them to the church to "cure" transexuality or homosexuality.

Yup, truth. Church does more harm than good.

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

[Yukitaka Oni]

Talk about war-dead-everything
- only less than 200 replies
Talk about transgender
-> war comment
v)o.o)> [_] v(o.o(v here's a popcorn. Enjoy the shi.t storm

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Hey they can all join the people's temple!!

Anybody got some kool aid?

[Fatalis]

Since the discussion is still going on and I don't want to end my input with a post that causes anger.

First, my view is that homosexuality is an abnormal condition. And I don't carry any hatred or disrespect whatsoever do those who are LGBT. I understand that the term mental illness may carry weight but I don't mean it in an insulting way. What I mean by not giving support is that we shouldn't do something encourage LGBT, some may misunderstand me there. After all, in the non-western part of tbe world and my country, LGBT is still considered unacceptable. Isn't it okay to think that something is wrong?

Secondly, if you guys insult people like me for bigotry and ignorance. That isn't healthy to the society either, if you shit on those who don't agree with LGBT then that isn't going to change their opinion and is just another form of oppression.

I believe that we can continue this discussion from both points of view without resorting to insults.

[Bruno]

i identify as a computer

trigger words are virus, lag, and bsod

preferred pronouns : it

[ThePaladin]

Since the discussion is still going on and I don't want to end my input with a post that causes anger.

First, my view is that homosexuality is an abnormal condition. And I don't carry any hatred or disrespect whatsoever do those who are LGBT. I understand that the term mental illness may carry weight but I don't mean it in an insulting way. What I mean by not giving support is that we shouldn't do something encourage LGBT, some may misunderstand me there. After all, in the non-western part of tbe world and my country, LGBT is still considered unacceptable. Isn't it okay to think that something is wrong?

Secondly, if you guys insult people like me for bigotry and ignorance. That isn't healthy to the society either, if you shit on those who don't agree with LGBT then that isn't going to change their opinion and is just another form of oppression.

I believe that we can continue this discussion from both points of view without resorting to insults.

Hey, The APA hasn't even recognized homosexuality as even something to be psychiatriclly treated [much less a mental illness](since the 1980's I believe?)

If you are going to make a claim calling it an mental illness, you are expected to back it up with evidence and show a chain of logic proving why it is.

[Bruno]

just because a belief is popular doesnt make it right

we all know you live in a shitty third world country anyway fatalis, what was it again? like malaysia? capital of trans genders and sex trafficking for little kids?

oh but no, you guys are morally sound

[Fatalis]

Hey, The APA hasn't even recognized homosexuality as even something to be psychiatriclly treated [much less a mental illness](since the 1980's I believe?)

If you are going to make a claim calling it an mental illness, you are expected to back it up with evidence and show a chain of logic proving why it is.

ThePaladin, I would continue the discussion but I'm done if people can't see my opinion as nothing more than offensive and decides to attack me via rep messages and (wrongly) call me homophobic.

Seriously, if I think that Alzheimer is a mental illness and then 50 years later science-wise and social-wise people state that it is natural, does that mean I hate and insult people with Alzheimer? Am I Alzheimer-phobic?

[Bruno]

ThePaladin, I would continue the discussion but I'm done if people can't see my opinion as nothing more than offensive and decides to attack me via rep messages and (wrongly) call me homophobic.

Seriously, if I think that Alzheimer is a mental illness and then 50 years later science-wise and social-wise people state that it is natural, does that mean I hate and insult people with Alzheimer? Am I Alzheimer-phobic?

oh you're not homophobic, right?

i fucking hate jews, hitler was totally right... but don't worry, i'm not an anti-semite. it's ok for me to be backwards cause my country is too

answer the fucking question: are you, or are you not, from a shitty third world country?\

fucking some shithole southern asian country. vietnam, taiwan, malaysia, some bullshit area like that. where prostitution and fucking little kids is pretty acceptable, but not being gay


there's gay members of this site, yet here you sit calling them mentally abnormal. you're a real stand up fella.

go fuck yourself

[Gyrlander]

ThePaladin, I would continue the discussion but I'm done if people can't see my opinion as nothing more than offensive and decides to attack me via rep messages and (wrongly) call me homophobic.

Seriously, if I think that Alzheimer is a mental illness and then 50 years later science-wise and social-wise people state that it is natural, does that mean I hate and insult people with Alzheimer? Am I Alzheimer-phobic?

You can't compare an illness that makes you forget things with something that just changed what kind of people you like. It's not... right.

By saying that something is a mental illness you're implying that it has to be cured.

[Bruno]

to build on what gyrlander said, to call something a mental illness implies somebody is, definitively, wrong.

he hit the nail on the head pretty good imo.


thank god raptor and lys don't come on this site anymore, they'd tear you a new fucking ass for being such a little bitch

[ThePaladin]

ThePaladin, I would continue the discussion but I'm done if people can't see my opinion as nothing more than offensive and decides to attack me via rep messages and (wrongly) call me homophobic.

Seriously, if I think that Alzheimer is a mental illness and then 50 years later science-wise and social-wise people state that it is natural, does that mean I hate and insult people with Alzheimer? Am I Alzheimer-phobic?

If new information comes about of something, you are expected to change your position or at the very least consider the new information.

I don't think Alzheimers is a very good comparison due to its nature and clear demonstrable negative(hard to argue positive) effects, a better example might be MPD or DID.

Yeah, insulting people even if you think the insult is good, isn't a way you really want to start a discussion off. In morality/philosophy debates, you never due that during the debate, you may do it after the debate, but not during.
The point of debates is to convince either the other debator or the judges/audience of a position. Insulting people does nothing in this regard.

Even if I thought my opponent was a Neo-Nazi. I wouldn't just call the guy a neo-nazi. I would ask the question well your position on X,Y, Z, etc. seems to be very similar to the National Socialist mindset in the 20th century, do you find this comparison apt and if so do you find that the behaviour of B was justified back then since its key justifications were X and Z.....
[of course you'd word this a whole lot differently if this was a formal, moderated, and judged debate; but here's a quick example]

This goes for both sides.
Moral High Ground doesn't apply in a debate on morality, that's what you are trying to prove. :facepalm:

[ThePaladin]

oh you're not homophobic, right?

i fucking hate jews, hitler was totally right... but don't worry, i'm not an anti-semite. it's ok for me to be backwards cause my country is too

answer the fucking question: are you, or are you not, from a shitty third world country?\

fucking some shithole southern asian country. vietnam, taiwan, malaysia, some bullshit area like that. where prostitution and fucking little kids is pretty acceptable, but not being gay


there's gay members of this site, yet here you sit calling them mentally abnormal. you're a real stand up fella.

go fuck yourself

This doesn't even remotely matter to the veracity of a position.

Now you've just insulted multiple country's, their people, and made broad generalization, some of which I don't even think are stereotypes.

In a debate there are usually people in the audience who are already aligned with a certain position. It doesn't change the veracity of claims.

[Bruno]

This doesn't even remotely matter to the veracity of a position.

Now you've just insulted multiple country's, their people, and made broad generalization, some of which I don't even think are sterotypes.




country's? nice grammar kid

im not arguing or debating jack shit, i'm pointing out fatalis is a nigger.

i didnt insult anything. those countries are shitholes. don't think so? move to one rofl. check out some sick photos online, and maybe try visiting one if you disagree with the views of somebody who has


dirt ass nasty countries

[Bruno]

also, you seem to be a little kid. maybe 10th grade on summer break? don't care

asia is very well known for its prostitution and child sex rings, maybe you should break out a book or two rofl

asian territories (the ones i listed, anyway) are also well known for the trannie brothels

checkmate

[Fatalis]

If you even read what you type and you think I'm the one being offensive,

'go fuck yourself'

[Bruno]

If you even read what you type and you think I'm the one being offensive,

'go fuck yourself'

lol okay buddy

go have fun in ur poverty shit hole country where people drive shitty ass fuckin 30 year old cars

[Yukitaka Oni]

lol okay buddy

go have fun in ur poverty shit hole country where people drive shitty ass fuckin 30 year old cars
Plz prove a perfect country in the world right now lel

[Bruno]

Plz prove a perfect country in the world right now lel

didnt claim there's a perfect country, simply that i'd rather live in a 1st world country than a shitty 3rd world country

[Yukitaka Oni]

didnt claim there's a perfect country, simply that i'd rather live in a 1st world country than a shitty 3rd world country
1st world country problem: femminism......lot of crazy debate about transgender......conspiracy....etc
3rd country problem: war, civil war, war against usa, war, war....war never changes.....

[yzb25]

Bruno deliberately winds people up for kicks. He probably doesn't actually think everyone from Third World Asia should be ignored when talking about sex ethics due to sex problems Asia has, because that's an insane position. Nah, I think he's (awkwardly) trying to stick up for homosexuals on the forum.

Just take some stuff he says with a pinch of salt :3

[Shifty]

country's? nice grammar kid

im not arguing or debating jack shit, i'm pointing out fatalis is a nigger.

i didnt insult anything. those countries are shitholes. don't think so? move to one rofl. check out some sick photos online, and maybe try visiting one if you disagree with the views of somebody who has


dirt ass nasty countries

LOL 😂😂 WHAT A 🗿🗿🗿🗿 HAHHA GET A FUCKIN LIFE 🌝🌚🔥🔥🔥