Spys are utterly useless..

[DarkArchon]

First things first: Nice to meet you all. Got hooked on mafia awhile ago and eagerly await further upgrades to it.

But if there was a single complaint I could nitpick on, it would be spies. For starters, they're rendered utterly useless if they are not chosen by random town, because if the slot was hand picked, all the people would know there's a spy, and if they got mafia they would know to stay quiet, or at least hide their names.

I know what the idea is: To separate the mafia and masons. Masons could be honest with the spy at night, *if they know there's a spy* and it'd be clear who not to target. But sadly I find Masons are very underused. *In all the games I play anyway.*

Also, know the option that lets the spy see who they target? Well... if you know they're going to target you, how come you can't avoid it? I find that just weird. If an SK/Arsonist targets you that's different, since you aren't "spying" on them. But i think that if this option is available, it should allow spies to be immune to being killed by the mafia.

[Trenix]

Why is every role useless because someone doesn't know how to play it? It's just a common fallacy we have in this game. Here's some advice...

1) Look out for a player's spelling, that way you can pick out the mafia during the day.
2) If the mafia give out names, those players are almost always innocent or neutral. Use that to your advantage.
3) By just being a spy, you weaken the mafia since they cannot plan any strategies.

[DarkArchon]

*sigh* If I had a nickle for every time I get treated like the bad guy

1. A player's spelling helps, yes, but if you speak out, the mafia will come wary of you.

2. Yeah the names they give out are innocent... too bad the ones they call are are usually the ones they target.

3. Again, knowing there's a spy in the game, they will know not to reveal their names. As long as they keep themselves in secret and reveal only one name, perhaps a target, the spy really can't judge anything. Over all the games I've played as a spy I always come across the same two obstacles.

1: The mafia never reveal names or colors.
2: They mafia never speaks. At all.

So don't go framing me on being a bad spy, even though I could probably be considered for one in real life, the only thing a spy adds to the town is a vote against the mafia, and that's pretty much it.

EDIT

I just remembered one game where I was mafia. Someone got spy via random town, of course no one could have known but my allies and I made sure to not deny the possibility. Out of curiosity I started referring to my allies as the names of other townsmen. Well, when I did it, it wasn't as effective since the people we referred to died pretty early, but you know where I'm going: Mafia could fool a spy into thinking the wrong people are guilty.

[Supersun]

1 Spy + 2 masons is pretty broken lol.

[Trenix]

*sigh* If I had a nickle for every time I get treated like the bad guy

1. A player's spelling helps, yes, but if you speak out, the mafia will come wary of you.

2. Yeah the names they give out are innocent... too bad the ones they call are are usually the ones they target.

3. Again, knowing there's a spy in the game, they will know not to reveal their names. As long as they keep themselves in secret and reveal only one name, perhaps a target, the spy really can't judge anything. Over all the games I've played as a spy I always come across the same two obstacles.

1: The mafia never reveal names or colors.
2: They mafia never speaks. At all.

So don't go framing me on being a bad spy, even though I could probably be considered for one in real life, the only thing a spy adds to the town is a vote against the mafia, and that's pretty much it.

EDIT

I just remembered one game where I was mafia. Someone got spy via random town, of course no one could have known but my allies and I made sure to not deny the possibility. Out of curiosity I started referring to my allies as the names of other townsmen. Well, when I did it, it wasn't as effective since the people we referred to died pretty early, but you know where I'm going: Mafia could fool a spy into thinking the wrong people are guilty.


Your conclusions are just a result of someone who doesn't know what he's doing. If someone doesn't know how to play, then it's their own fault, not the role's fault. You guys need to stop whining and crying about roles that you clearly don't know how to use affectively. Like masons for example, anyone who feels that a mason is useless is obviously an idiot.

Don't expect a role without disadvantages. This is a strategic based game and some players wanna play a fair game. So just take my advice and make the best of it. Nullifying it because of strategic gameplay is quite faulty.

[DarkArchon]

Wow I just sign onto this forum today and already I'm being driven out for stating my own opinions. Wonderful.

You know, its good to have an 'argument' before you simply declare something. By spitting at me and calling me bad just proves that you have no logical argument that can counter mine. Seriously, grow some maturity. Its a game. I'm just stating what I feel are balance issues. You've no right to just say things like that.

Honestly... I just signed up today because i've been constantly playing mafia the last few weeks, becoming a big fan and hoping to get into some discussion and even get through some arguments, and then immediately some big shot just kicks sand in my face and laughs at it. I'm going to be the bigger man and leave while I'm ahead, because you've proved your immaturity to the people of this board.

[Mysterymeat]

I can understand why u think spys are bad but sometimes it can be useful. When mafia drops names, even if they're not mafia you can tell who is inno then. Although mafia actually does drop real names sometimes mixed in with fake or noobs do sometimes. Spy can be really useful to figure out inno and guilty. However, I disagree that spy stops mafia from talking strategy cause in most games i played they don't basically. Just kill who, block which role etc. Yes it is useless when they don't talk but every role has its downside.

[Edgeris]

There's already a thread, discussing the uselessness of spies. http://www.thecouncilofmages.com/forum/index.php/topic,132.0.html

To not repost my thinking, here's a direct link of why I think spies are useless (it also touches upon some arguments made throughout the thread). http://www.thecouncilofmages.com/forum/index.php/topic,132.msg1689.html#msg1689

[Trenix]

Wow I just sign onto this forum today and already I'm being driven out for stating my own opinions. Wonderful.

You know, its good to have an 'argument' before you simply declare something. By spitting at me and calling me bad just proves that you have no logical argument that can counter mine. Seriously, grow some maturity. Its a game. I'm just stating what I feel are balance issues. You've no right to just say things like that.

Honestly... I just signed up today because i've been constantly playing mafia the last few weeks, becoming a big fan and hoping to get into some discussion and even get through some arguments, and then immediately some big shot just kicks sand in my face and laughs at it. I'm going to be the bigger man and leave while I'm ahead, because you've proved your immaturity to the people of this board.


I'm not trying to target you or drive you out, I'm just unsure of why you say that a spy is useless. They're affective if you use them correctly and they're ineffective if you use them poorly. Sounds very stable in my opinion. If you're gonna propose a suggestion, it's best not to say that spies are useless. Just say how they can be improved. Your proposal is just rather overpowering in my opinion. Just because it's a weakness, that doesn't mean it's a flaw. Otherwise, mafia shouldn't be able to be lynched, right?

[Styx]

If the Mafia isn't saying anything because a Spy is there, then the Spy is fulfilling it's purpose.

If the Mafia can't communicate then they can't play with any overlying strategy, this simplifies the enemy for the town as if individual members of the mafia attempt to do any multi-layered strategy then it's going to appear chaotic to the rest of the mafia who'll have to pick it up on the fly and are far more likely to get caught in a lie because of this. Simplifying a three or four player strategy to dealing with a single player is obscenely valuable for the town.

Simply put a Spy doesn't actually need to hear anything of value to be valuable.


If the Mafia does try any form of strategy the Spy will catch them out

The spy is essentially an Investigator that investigates strategies instead of roles, this requires a lot of deduction but is generally simple to pull off and if you know what the mafia is doing, then the mafia members during the day will seem plainly obvious. A Spy cannot be lied to during the day if the Mafia is attempting any form of strategy.

In Mason games the Spy is essentially an extra Mason

With the ability to simply have a one-way communication between the Town's automatically confirmed innocents and the Spy saves the town one night of investigations which is critical to the success of the town. This one is somewhat more difficult to pull off without PMs enabled, but the Masons can have the Spy something obnoxious in one of their chat messages such as "Fruit" or "Hotdog" (although more inconspicuous would be preferred) to gain knowledge of who the Spy is.

Dealing with Random Mafia

Often times, even as the game is winding down, some of the Random Mafia roles may seem unclear, the Mafia may have a Consigliere or a Consort posing as an Investigator or Escort. The Spy sees through this facades from night one, where they essentially can gain exclusive knowledge of all the Mafia's roles and PM these to the Sheriff or without PM, when that Investigator who doesn't exactly fit into the setup after everyone starts claiming and who suspiciously is only outing the Neutral roles, the Spy can out these players almost as efficiently as a Sheriff.

[Edgeris]

If the Mafia isn't saying anything because a Spy is there, then the Spy is fulfilling it's purpose.

If the Mafia can't communicate then they can't play with any overlying strategy, this simplifies the enemy for the town as if individual members of the mafia attempt to do any multi-layered strategy then it's going to appear chaotic to the rest of the mafia who'll have to pick it up on the fly and are far more likely to get caught in a lie because of this. Simplifying a three or four player strategy to dealing with a single player is obscenely valuable for the town.

Simply put a Spy doesn't actually need to hear anything of value to be valuable.


If the Mafia does try any form of strategy the Spy will catch them out

The spy is essentially an Investigator that investigates strategies instead of roles, this requires a lot of deduction but is generally simple to pull off and if you know what the mafia is doing, then the mafia members during the day will seem plainly obvious. A Spy cannot be lied to during the day if the Mafia is attempting any form of strategy.

In Mason games the Spy is essentially an extra Mason

With the ability to simply have a one-way communication between the Town's automatically confirmed innocents and the Spy saves the town one night of investigations which is critical to the success of the town. This one is somewhat more difficult to pull off without PMs enabled, but the Masons can have the Spy something obnoxious in one of their chat messages such as "Fruit" or "Hotdog" (although more inconspicuous would be preferred) to gain knowledge of who the Spy is.

Dealing with Random Mafia

Often times, even as the game is winding down, some of the Random Mafia roles may seem unclear, the Mafia may have a Consigliere or a Consort posing as an Investigator or Escort. The Spy sees through this facades from night one, where they essentially can gain exclusive knowledge of all the Mafia's roles and PM these to the Sheriff or without PM, when that Investigator who doesn't exactly fit into the setup after everyone starts claiming and who suspiciously is only outing the Neutral roles, the Spy can out these players almost as efficiently as a Sheriff.


1. Mafia can freely talk about anything. All spies do is make mafia have to type and read more for the same amount of information. Granted, taking the correct measures to spy-proof your conversations does let the spy know you know how to counter the spy.

2. Mafia can still form strategies, but probably not to the same extent if there's absolutely no spy. This is due to the mafia having to spy-proof their conversation and not having enough time at night.

3. Yes, spies are essentially an extra Mason. This can be the tipping point to make the Mason Conglomerate unstoppable or not. This just depends on the game setup. If the host knows about this, this becomes a non-issue. I.e. If putting in 4 masons is a bad idea, then so is putting 3 masons and a spy.

4. There's no way to tell the identity of the role of a Mafia. The spy has no way of telling if it's a Mafia trick or not.
"Mafia: Hello, spy. I know you're reading this. Consort, block someone." From that statement, is there a Consort in the game?
Or worse yet, "Mafia: Consort, please block someone."

[Dark.Revenant]

What's up guys. No need to get angry.

My personal opinion is that just by having a Spy exist in the game makes the Mafia more likely to lose because their strategic ability is highly repressed. What a Spy does with his abilities, however, is left to debate. Just like a Vigilante, a good Spy can be a huge asset while a bad Spy basically acts like a Jester.

[Supersun]

4 masons or 3 masons + spy...how does the town ever lose with that set-up.

Also very few people actually change how they type at night. It's entirely possible to recognize someone as a mafia just from their "voice." Granted very few people can actually peg a mafia by his "voice", but it can be done.

[Footy]

I've only ever had mimimal success when playing spy, and it's normally been through Random Town role, never when a spy is placed in the setup. I noticed two mafia members just by the way they typed, one of them kept accidently hitting the ' key which he also did a lot during the day.

I for one whenever I am placed on the Mafia team, I always change the way I type, I stop using Grammar and start talking like i'm a Highschool girl thats acquired new mobile phone, just to purposely throw any spys off. Of course its very annoying when fellow mafia members tell me to speak properly :p

I have to admit though, I do like the idea of if the spy is targetted by the Mafia they essentially become immune to the attack, Kind of makes sense if they know it's coming.