S-FM: Popular Vote - Plane Crash

[Titus]

S-FM: Plane Crash

Setting and Description:

All of you were riding on a private jet, guests of the eccentric Titus. You were there because Titus wanted to get to know all of your skills for a secret project. Titus's associates did not tell her what any of you were actually good at. Most of you, are willing to work as a team. Some of you, however, are there for fame and glory.

All of you signed one contract though. If, in the event something happened to Titus, all of you would get together and see who would be the best to lead the project. According to Titus's will, you must vote on who has the best skills to do a given role in the future society. However, Titus did mention that the separatists would kill the collectivists before risking that the society would lose too much individual freedom. The collectivists would kill the Separatists to ensure a livelihood for all, just not the perfectly capable/already wealthy.

The Separatists are a tight knit mafia. They feel like people are better if they "make it on their own" with no assistance from social networks, beyond those of voluntary association. They are not necessarily evil. This is just background.

The Collectivists are a group who thinks that the group is better at ensuring the needs of the individuals in the group can be met. This is especially true in the case of weaker members of society. They are not necessarily evil. This is just background.

The true neutrals don't care about how society goes. They just want a decision made.

Credit to 42shadow42. This is a modified version of Colonization.

Alignment of Players:

The alignments of the nine players are as follows.

Separatist
Separatist
Collectivist
Collectivist
Collectivist
Collectivist
Collectivist
Collectivist
True Neutral

Voting for roles takes place on day 1. The roles are below. There is only one of each role. Votes must be pmed by the end of day 1 to count. There will be no citizens. There is no blacklisting or preferring of roles since that is all done via voting.

Roles to Vote on:

Amnesiac - Can remember the role of any dead player. He can remember at night only. What the player chose and when he chose it are not revealed to the group. The amnesiac can change his role decision, until he officially uses the action. He can choose to remember and use the action of that role in the same night.

Copycat - Can use any role in the game, but can only use the role once. Hypothetically, if the game goes past seven nights, the copycat's role options will be restored fully. You may copy any role, living or dead but for the amnesiac and the copycat (kinda redundant). The person who was copied is not notified, because this is not a viist, similar to the amnesiac. Witching does not affect the copycat's role section, because role selection is not a visit. If witched, he will use his chosen role on the manipulator's target. The copycat selects his role at night and can use it the same night.

Doctor - Heals the specified target and prevents witching of that target. Doctor is notified if the victim is attacked and healed. Doctor is not notified of witching attempts.

Escort (aka Consort) - Roleblocks someone. If he roleblocks the jailor, the jailor cannot execute. If he roleblocks the journalist, the letter will be sent. However, it will not be posted.

Jailor (aka Kidnapper) - Jails someone each night. Can kill twice. Jailing is a perfect roleblock. If roleblocked, you cannot execute but you do not lose the execution and the target is still jailed. He cannot jail on a lynch day. There will be a jail chat. Witching causes an automatic execution of the target. If the jailor is a Separatist he will have access to both chats.

Journalist - May select one player during the day to write a note to be displayed at the start of the next day. The selected player will write their note at night. If the journalist roleblocked, I will not post the message that the target wrote. Roleblocked targets can respond to the journalist. Jailed players can respond as well.

Manipulator (aka Witch) - At night, anonymously convinces another player to visit whoever he wants. Victim is not notified of manipulation. Jailor is forced to autoexecute if witched, unless the jailor is also roleblocked.

Sheriff - Finds the alignment of a player

Vigilante - Kills once per night. Has unlimited kills.


Role Voting:

The person with the most votes for each role wins. If there happens to be a tie, the first person to pm their final confirmed vote will break the ties. Each player must vote up all present roles.

Separatists, Team Players and the True Neutral can be any role.

Everyone will have a role. Everyone can act on night 1, but for the amnesiac (because there are no corpses). There will be no citizens.

The Separatists may forgo their night action to have a night kill instead. Ex: Separatists get voted as the escort and sheriff. Sheriff decides to not investigate but kill someone instead. This is ok. Only one separatist may do this each night though, and the mafia cannot do this if the vigilante is a living mafia. Amnesiac can forgo his impossible ability to remember on night 1 for the mafia kill as well.


Order of Operations:

1) Amnesiac remembers/Copycat selects role use. The roles the amnesiac and copycat select are then processed through the OoO as if they were the role they selected.
2) Jailor jails.
3) Witch moves.
4) Escort roleblocks.
5) Vigilante kills.
6) Doctor heals.
7) Sheriff investigates.
8) Journalist response posted.


Rules:

1) No PMs
2) No mentioning ongoing games in the thread, even if you have the other host's permission. Past games are fine.
3) Pictures are ok. Videos are not.
4) Codes need prior approval unless they consist only of any bold, italics, underline or missizing of letters. Invisible ink will never be allowed. For clarity, a code is anything not in plain English. If I say X, do Y is NOT a code.
5) Separatists have a night chat.
6) Game starts at Day 0, no lynch. However, it is not a pointless day.
7) Votes on who is what role are pmed to me. Once a person is elected as a role, the election is permanent.
8) Election votes are due 1 hour before the day ends. They must be pmed. Failure to vote will cost a loss of a night action unless explained in advance.
9) All night actions must be pmed to the host. Any action not pmed by 1 hour before day may be forfeit.
10) There will be a death/observer chat. All questions and comments regarding the game go in there or come to me via PM if you are not a player.
11) All questions in green.
12) There will be no death descriptions.
13) Last wills ok.
14) All roles will be revealed upon death.

Win Conditions
Separatists - Win by killing the collectivists.
Collectivists - Win by killing the separatists.
True Neutral - Wins by surviving.

[Sinclair]

I don't know why no one has posted, I like this set-up. I'd love to play it.

[Orpz]

:o I didn't see it

Ideology warfare!

[Titus]

I bet no one saw this thread because of the M-FM going on.

[ika]

i saw it and left. you can see how many ppl veiw it at bottom

[Sinclair]

i saw it and left. you can see how many ppl veiw it at bottom

lol if you didn't like it, stay out.

OR

Say what you don't like about it, and maybe she'll change it.

[ika]

lol if you didn't like it, stay out.

OR

Say what you don't like about it, and maybe she'll change it.

who said i didnt like it? a lot of people come on and look at them and give no imput all the time.

[Titus]

Yes. I can see 13 members who have read the thread. Only two of their names appear at the bottom but they aren't the people who posted here.

[Damus_Graves]

I shall show my interest in a /pre-sign

[ika]

invisi mode prevents who was here

[ika]

also i looked into it and it could end in one day for either side

[louiswill]

the colonists one went well,

I think a test on this setup would be fun.

but... why vigiliant D:~~

[Titus]

the colonists one went well,

I think a test on this setup would be fun.

but... why vigiliant D:~~

Vigilante is good for a KPN, or if town has it... it can shoot suspects who don't get lynched due to persuasive mafia.

[louiswill]

Vigilante is good for a KPN, or if town has it... it can shoot suspects who don't get lynched due to persuasive mafia.

you won't issue vigilant in early game right?

[Titus]

you won't issue vigilant in early game right?

All roles are decided day 1. Players vote one person for each role.

[ika]

All roles are decided day 1. Players vote one person for each role.

day one town gets copycat and vig

cpoycat picks vig and shoots maf 1
vig shoots maf 2

not doc or witch or anything to stop them gg.

[Titus]

The odds of that scenario are ridiculously remote. Both people have to feel confident enough to shoot. Both have to pick different targets. Both the doc and the witch have to miss. Plus, the escort cannot roleblock either killer. It's theoretically possible but very very remote.

However, I could make it so copycat cannot pick vig night 1.

[ika]

The odds of that scenario are ridiculously remote. Both people have to feel confident enough to shoot. Both have to pick different targets. Both the doc and the witch have to miss. Plus, the escort cannot roleblock either killer. It's theoretically possible but very very remote.

However, I could make it so copycat cannot pick vig night 1.

you have too look at it on how fast a game can end no matter how improbbable it is. remeber double killers? sk one killed and then lynched other sk. we didnt really take that into account so fast.

ok so copycat doesnt take vig takes jailor, witch forces exe. maf gets witched to cause self target. there are so many scnarios that can play out that can make a day one gg game here. really there need to be some sort of limitations. no matter how imporbable something may seem you have to take into account the chance that it could happen. remember your city one? you didnt count on me finding consig day 1 making it ez for town.

all im saying is that there are a lot of ways for town to win a day one game here with the high kpn that is available

[Titus]

Jailor cannot act night 1. Witch visiting jailor would do nothing. There are a lot of ways the mafia could get in control of the game. Plus vigilante doesn't have to shoot.

If the game ends night one, we have very lucky town or dumb mafia or vice versa. A rolecall does nothing.

[ika]

im just saying you have to expect the probabilty of things like that. this game can be great or it can be a game like double killers where its gg in one night. just my thoughts on it

[ika]

also role call can be used. town will just dictate the roles after they get assigned like double killers.

[Slaol]

6) Game starts at Day 0, no lynch. However, it is not a troll day.


Yes it is. Any day in which neither the Town nor Mafia has pressure weapons to force discussion is a troll day. Mafia has no reason to feel pressured so there is no fear. Town has no reason to pressure so there is no weapon. It's like calling a chess game of 1 King against another King not a troll game. It is, regardless of what you want to say.

[Titus]

also role call can be used. town will just dictate the roles after they get assigned like double killers.

What if someone doesn't go along? How do you expect everyone to agree on actions. I would imagine no one volunteeing to be shot/roleblocked. Organizing the sherrif and doctor theoretically could happen.

@Sloal, mafia and town have group pressures to get all roles for themselves.

[powerofdeath]

This game look really fun
Add me to sign aka /presign

[Gerik]

4) Codes need prior approval unless they consist only of any bold, italics, underline or missizing of letters. Invisible ink will never be allowed.

I'm curious about your reasoning behind this rule. Codes are one of the most beautiful things about forum mafia. Why would you restrict them?

[Titus]

I'm curious about your reasoning behind this rule. Codes are one of the most beautiful things about forum mafia. Why would you restrict them?

I'm not banning them because they are wonderful. I just don't have the time to sit and crack the codes and I have to do my job as a host. Hence why I need approval. Most codes would likely be approved.

[Gerik]

I'm not banning them because they are wonderful. I just don't have the time to sit and crack the codes and I have to do my job as a host. Hence why I need approval. Most codes would likely be approved.

But the only faction that can develop codes effectively is the mafia, who will do it in their night chat, which you can read (meaning you'll know how the code works). So I'm not sure how this changes anything except to make it a bit more of a nuisance for the players.

[Titus]

But the only faction that can develop codes effectively is the mafia, who will do it in their night chat, which you can read (meaning you'll know how the code works). So I'm not sure how this changes anything except to make it a bit more of a nuisance for the players.

The jailor, if town, could come up with a code with the person he jailed.

I'm pretty sure the mafia can presume that I'd be reading their night chat. A PM to me would also get approval. I'm on a lot. The way I have it structured is little to no burden at all.

[Gerik]

I still think it's unnecessary, but do you what you want I suppose.

[Titus]

I still think it's unnecessary, but do you what you want I suppose.

For the record, a code is anything not in plain English. :) A code =/= if you say X, then I know Y is not a code.

[Cryptonic]

6) Game starts at Day 0, no lynch. However, it is not a troll day.

Day 1 no lynch is fine, but I gaurentee it will be a quiet day. Also, I'm not sure if you're specifically saying trolling is not allowed on day 1, but you should really try not to tell players how to communicate with other players. Trolling, although often undesirable, is a legitimate strategy.

[Titus]

Day 1 no lynch is fine, but I gaurentee it will be a quiet day. Also, I'm not sure if you're specifically saying trolling is not allowed on day 1, but you should really try not to tell players how to communicate with other players. Trolling, although often undesirable, is a legitimate strategy.

I will change that to say Day 1 is not pointless. I usually hear because today has no point it's a troll day. Here, no lynch is ok.

[creedkingsx]

If you want no trolling, allow Day 1 lynch, otherwise it will happen and the day will be wasted.

[Titus]

If you want no trolling, allow Day 1 lynch, otherwise it will happen and the day will be wasted.

I don't care if people troll. I just want to communicate the day has a point, having players vote for who receives what role. Saying the day wasn't a troll day was a poor choice of words.

[ika]

I don't care if people troll. I just want to communicate the day has a point, having players vote for who receives what role. Saying the day wasn't a troll day was a poor choice of words.

then whats to stop people from going "no lych possible? afk the day"

[BorkBot]

If someone ties for multiple roles, how do you decide what role they get?

Can Witch be blocked?

What sort of notifications can doctor healing give?

[Cryptonic]

Why can't Amnesiac change his mind before night ends?

Am I safe to assume that Amnesiac can remember a role and use the night action in the same night?

You say the Separatists can give up a night action to kill. If they don't have any night actions, can they still kill?

Can people get multiple roles given to them? If yes, how does Amnesiac/Copycat remember a role?

How will you deal with tie votes? The first person who was voted for out of the two tied people will be granted the role?

Are Jailor's targets immune to attacks while jailed?

You say everyone must vote on the roles. What are the consequences of failing to do submit a vote?

Will there be different death descriptions between Mafia/Vigilante/Jailor? If yes, how will you prevent a Mafia-aligned Vigilante from being confirmed as scum (since there will never be a Vigilante kill AND a Mafia kill in the same night)?

Does Sheriff detect the True Neutral? What does the Sheriff detect each faction as?


Can you:
Post concise Win Conditions.
Give True Neutral a factional color.

[Titus]

If someone ties for multiple roles, how do you decide what role they get?

Can Witch be blocked?

What sort of notifications can doctor healing give?

1) If two people tie for a role, the first person to pm their final vote wins.

2) No, the witch cannot be roleblocked.

3) Doctor will get an attacked and healed message.

[Titus]

Answers are inline.


Why can't Amnesiac change his mind before night ends?

The amnesiac cannot change his action so I can determine the order of various night actions. This also allows the amnesiac to remember the jailor/journalist during the day, imprison someone, and then act. I cannot have the amnesiac jailor/journalist change his mind when night comes around.

Am I safe to assume that Amnesiac can remember a role and use the night action in the same night?

Yes.

You say the Separatists can give up a night action to kill. If they don't have any night actions, can they still kill?

There is no scenario where the Separatists would have no night action. Each person can only have one role and each person will get a role. In the rare event that the Separatists get the Jailor and the amnesiac, the separatists can "sacrifice" the jailors night action to kill. The jailor would still pick a target the next day to jail.

Can people get multiple roles given to them? If yes, how does Amnesiac/Copycat remember a role?

No. Each player only has one role. Amnesiac can remember any dead player. Copycat can copy one person dead or alive but then cannot use the role again until all the roles (but for Amnesiac) are used.

How will you deal with tie votes? The first person who was voted for out of the two tied people will be granted the role?

Yes, the first person who was voted will be given the role. For further clarification, I will detail the method of assigning votes.

1) Check for majorities. Those get assigned.
2) Check the highest votes for the votes left over. Assign those. Ties are resolved by first to PM.
3) Repeat 2 until all roles are assigned.

Are Jailor's targets immune to attacks while jailed?

Yes.

You say everyone must vote on the roles. What are the consequences of failing to do submit a vote?

I will modkill/replace those who do not vote. I will also place a sample vote card in the thread so no one is confused on how to vote.

Will there be different death descriptions between Mafia/Vigilante/Jailor? If yes, how will you prevent a Mafia-aligned Vigilante from being confirmed as scum (since there will never be a Vigilante kill AND a Mafia kill in the same night)?

There will be no role specific death descriptions.

Does Sheriff detect the True Neutral? What does the Sheriff detect each faction as?

The Sheriff can detect the true neutral. The Sheriff will see "Your target is a Separatist" etc.

Can you:
Post concise Win Conditions.
Give True Neutral a factional color.

Done

[ika]

You say everyone must vote on the roles. What are the consequences of failing to do submit a vote?

I will modkill/replace those who do not vote. I will also place a sample vote card in the thread so no one is confused on how to vote.

isnt that a little extreme? what if we dont want to vote? what if the person has a event that causes them to miss the voting session?

[Titus]

isnt that a little extreme? what if we dont want to vote? what if the person has a event that causes them to miss the voting session?

The game breaks if people do not vote. I don't know a way around the "I just won't vote" issue without issuing that as a penalty. If you have a better suggestion, I'd gladly incorporate it. Perhaps a one night block on night action?

[ika]

The game breaks if people do not vote. I don't know a way around the "I just won't vote" issue without issuing that as a penalty. If you have a better suggestion, I'd gladly incorporate it. Perhaps a one night block on night action?

well the sperest will vote for what roles they want. the towns will vote accordingly, really if one or 2 ppl dont vote it shouldnt break it. if someone says i dont want to vote they they dont.

if EVERYONE said im not gonna vote then yes it gets broken. but really if someone say "i wont want to vote" it shouldnt count against them unless everyone does it.

[Titus]

Ok, I'll change the "not voting" rule to... a lack of a vote without explaining to the host will cost you your first night action.

[BorkBot]

if EVERYONE said im not gonna vote then yes it gets broken. but really if someone say "i wont want to vote" it shouldnt count against them unless everyone does it.
It should, because it's against their own winning conditions to give the separatists a better chance to get what they want.


Ok, I'll change the "not voting" rule to... a lack of a vote without explaining to the host will cost you your first night action.
This is a good penalty though.

[BorkBot]

From the Copycat's description it's not clear to me if he has to choose a player whose role to copy, or if he can just pick a role from the list. It's the line that says "the player whose role is copied is not informed" that confuses me, because it implies targeting rather than manual selection.

Do you insist on allowing the amnesiac and copycat to choose roles both at night and during the day? I find this very confusing. I'd prefer to see either/or if possible.

[Titus]

From the Copycat's description it's not clear to me if he has to choose a player whose role to copy, or if he can just pick a role from the list. It's the line that says "the player whose role is copied is not informed" that confuses me, because it implies targeting rather than manual selection.

I'll edit that to clarify I guess. The copycat can just select any role. Let's say copycat selects jailor. The jailor is not notified because this isn't a visit, similar to the amnesiac.


Do you insist on allowing the amnesiac and copycat to choose roles both at night and during the day? I find this very confusing. I'd prefer to see either/or if possible.

I like it the way it is. I'm not wedded to that interpretation though. Can you tell me why it's confusing? Because it's not a normal mechanic for remembering roles?

[BorkBot]

I like it the way it is. I'm not wedded to that interpretation though. Can you tell me why it's confusing? Because it's not a normal mechanic for remembering roles?
My question is mainly this: do the changes from the norm yield a significant benefit for the gameplay in your setup? And if the impact is only minimal, why not stick to the standard options everyone is familiar with?

For the amnesiac it really doesn't matter all that much if it's only day or only night in my opinion. Normally, if he picks jailor or journalist at night it just means his actions take effect the day after. It's only a slight loss of flexibility if he can take journalist/jailor on the fly if it becomes favourable mid-day. For any other role it doesn't make a difference.

For the copycat it's a bit different. If he has to pick journalist or jailor at night to use them the following day, it means the journalist/jailor action will take effect the same night as his following night action. If he were only allowed to pick a role at daytime however, he would not have an action the first night of the game.

This is the only benefit I see. But since Copycat is a very flexible role, would it be all that bad if his ability to take action is delayed by one night? It wouldn't have a significant negative effect on the game balance as far as I can see.

(As a side-note, I prefer it if people try to avoid needless complexity. If one does it, others will copy it "because it was approved." It creates undesirable trends. Like half a year ago or something everyone was copying each other's Order of Operations and every other setup in the approvals section ended up with a garbled mess of an OoO because they no longer indicated what actions affected what other actions, and I had to ask the same two dozen questions every time)

[Titus]

My question is mainly this: do the changes from the norm yield a significant benefit for the gameplay in your setup? And if the impact is only minimal, why not stick to the standard options everyone is familiar with?

For the amnesiac it really doesn't matter all that much if it's only day or only night in my opinion. Normally, if he picks jailor or journalist at night it just means his actions take effect the day after. It's only a slight loss of flexibility if he can take journalist/jailor on the fly if it becomes favourable mid-day. For any other role it doesn't make a difference.

For the copycat it's a bit different. If he has to pick journalist or jailor at night to use them the following day, it means the journalist/jailor action will take effect the same night as his following night action. If he were only allowed to pick a role at daytime however, he would not have an action the first night of the game.

This is the only benefit I see. But since Copycat is a very flexible role, would it be all that bad if his ability to take action is delayed by one night? It wouldn't have a significant negative effect on the game balance as far as I can see.

(As a side-note, I prefer it if people try to avoid needless complexity. If one does it, others will copy it "because it was approved." It creates undesirable trends. Like half a year ago or something everyone was copying each other's Order of Operations and every other setup in the approvals section ended up with a garbled mess of an OoO because they no longer indicated what actions affected what other actions, and I had to ask the same two dozen questions every time)


I find this persuasive. I'm editing to have amnesiac and copycat remember at night.

[BorkBot]

If the copycat remembers at night though, does that mean he can
-remember jailor night 1
-jail day 1
-use a second action alongside his jail/execute night 2?

Just saying, for the copycat it might actually make more sense if he can only choose during the day rather than only at night.

[Titus]

If the copycat remembers at night though, does that mean he can
-remember jailor night 1
-jail day 1
-use a second action alongside his jail/execute night 2?

Just saying, for the copycat it might actually make more sense if he can only choose during the day rather than only at night.

I find this not significant IMO. By remembering jailor night 1, his actions have no effect night 1. It would all average out to one action per night.

[BorkBot]

That much is true. But he could for instance get information in jail and take immediate action based on that. If you think that's fine, then it is ;)

You can also remove the rule that he can't change his mind about his role then, because it's no longer a problem.

What happens if the copycat remembers the amnesiac role? Or is that not one of the roles he can remember?

[Titus]

The copycat cannot remember the amnesiac. I've edited to add this.

[BorkBot]

I think that about covers it.

Approved.

[powerofdeath]

/sign

[BorkBot]

One more question.

The copycat used to have a rule stating that he had to cycle through all the roles once before he could pick the same role again. Was this restriction removed?

[Titus]

No. It should still be there. *scratches head* I'll add it back in.

Bolded the relevant passage. It was still there.

[Hypersniper]

i dont get the role voting