Cult Update Identified Issues and Helpful Facts

[Goonswarm]

Things Discovered:

1: If a cultist and mason leader try to recruit a citizen the same night. The citizen become a mason and learns the identity of the cultist as he was a a mason when he was recruited by the cult. Masons have priority.

2: Bulletproof vests, Jailing and night immunity of any form prevents the cult from recruiting that person.

3: If an Amnesiac become a cultist and is recruited by masons that same night, he does survive.

4: If a sheriff or investigator check a non culted person the night he is recruited, they get the result of the check as the previous role. IE: If cult recruits a doctor the invest sees knives and sheriff sees not suspicious.

5: If masons try to recruit a cultist the cultist dies and a death description plays with "He was beaten to death by a blunt object" (IMO Should be changed to "He was lynched at night by a secret society."

Bugs:
Permanently immune at night roles like Godfather do not have a button to be recruited by cult and thus the GF/SK/Arson are known to be their roles from day 1 as cult.

Cultists have a voting system that is flawed, the votes can contradict each other, there needs to be a cult priority system as there is with the masons. Cult Leader replacing cultist would be a good idea and having cultists have the option to promote like masons do would help.

Cultists can target themselves to recruit while already cultists.

Other than that post here if you identify any other bugs.


Still need to test Cultists + Disguiser and how those resolve. Also Spy is fucking Godmode now.

[Goonswarm]

Update: The cultists recruiting limiting to every other night is not working. Cult can still recruit every night with that setting on.

Edit: I set GF to not be immune and the option to recruit GF is still off.

[Dark.Revenant]

Permanently immune at night roles like Godfather do not have a button to be recruited by cult and thus the GF/SK/Arson are known to be their roles from day 1 as cult.
This is a bug that prevents any Mafia roles from being added to the command card instead of preventing Cultists.


Cultists have a voting system that is flawed, the votes can contradict each other, there needs to be a cult priority system as there is with the masons. Cult Leader replacing cultist would be a good idea and having cultists have the option to promote like masons do would help.
The votes never reset, which is a big problem. I'm not adding a Cult Leader, however. The Cult is basically the only democratic night group and I want to keep it that way.


IMO Should be changed to "He was lynched at night by a secret society."
That spells out the kill way too much. Plus, it doesn't fit the brutal bludgeoning-with-a-hammer night sequence the Mason Leader gets.


Update: The cultists recruiting limiting to every other night is not working. Cult can still recruit every night with that setting on.
Another bug. I accidentally reset the delay every day instead of just lowering by one.

[Goonswarm]

You are awesome, I am just trying to help btw. Sorry for giving you all these issues.

[Goonswarm]

Just played a test game where it was 2 cult and 1 citizen remaining, the cult could not recruit the citizen and end the game and had to lynch him. I believe this is also a bug.

[NorthStar]

This thread is also glitched, my browser crashes when I try to Quote. Anyways yeah, I tried to recruit the Citizen twice.

[Dark.Revenant]

He probably got healed or something, or might be a bug I already fixed, because the code on my in-dev version looks pristine.

[Deadlytalon]

What would healing matter if there being turned into a cult ?

[Clawtrocity]

Healing prevents cult.

[EagleMan]

We tried to recruit a person, but he was killed. The next night it said we tried to recruit the same person even though we both agreed on someone else. I assume you can still convert the next night if your previous conversion failed.


...The next night it said we tried to recruit the person we tried to recruit the PREVIOUS night.

[Dark.Revenant]

Yeah the targeting someone else is a result of the votes not resetting bug.

[Deadlytalon]

Ya thats annoying, I can see were cults could be op, but I also see where they could be alot of fun, Instead of having mafia, you can have SKs / Ars / Masons / Cults / Random or something, I would like to see some cult setups, without mafia change it up some :) but the cult looks to be exciting :)

[Deadlytalon]

Also, idk if this is a bug or not but I would assume so. when your mafioso, and your sent to kill someone, and are also targeted, you still perform the kill and then are killed right ? The cultist displays the message "You where sent to convert whoever" and then you are killed, but because you are killed, the person never converts ?

[Dark.Revenant]

I have no idea what the fuck you just said.

[Clawtrocity]

If you are the Mafioso and are sent to kill someone you still kill them even if you die.

Apparently it's not the same for the cultist. He doesn't recruit if he dies.

He's asking if that's a bug or intended.

[Deadlytalon]

Yes what claw said, Shouldn't the cultist still recruit his target even if he is killed ? Cause as it stands, he does not recruit his target if he dies.

[Dark.Revenant]

Recruits happen last, well after the kills. This is intended; recruiting is very powerful and needs some counters and balances.

[styx0202]

i have no clue what the fuck is everyone talking about, but i'm assuming Dark updated NA version with new role and now testing it out

///im poor and european

[AdmiralCain]

IMO Should be changed to "He was lynched at night by a secret society."
That spells out the kill way too much. Plus, it doesn't fit the brutal bludgeoning-with-a-hammer night sequence the Mason Leader gets.


TBH, personally I like Goon's phrasing. I don't understand why it spells out the kill way too much. Experienced players and/or forum readers will soon learn that "blunt object" = mason kill. So the current vague description only serves to confuse newbies, without making the game any more mysterious or interesting for experienced players.

[Dark.Revenant]

I don't spell out any other kills, like mafia, vigilante, serial killer, veteran, etc.

[AdmiralCain]

I don't spell out any other kills, like mafia, vigilante, serial killer, veteran, etc.


Some of the kills are explicitly spelled out: jailer, busdriver, and jester, for example.

And the other ones are reasonably obvious, even if not explicit (e.g. "stabbed"=SK, who works with knives; "military grade assault rifle"=veteran, who is ex-military; "duel"/"shootout"=bodyguard, who dies on the same night in the same way, etc.).

The only one that's not as clear is the vig's "high caliber gun" kill. But I think even that is a more obvious connection (easier to figure out) than the mason kill being a blunt object, since the vig is a an undercover cop, and cops carry guns at least. AFAIK, masons are not normally associated with carrying blunt objects, are they?

[Dark.Revenant]

"being lynched at night" has absolutely nothing to do with being bashed to death. We needed a blunt-force death, so I did it this way.

[TheJackofSpades]

This is what I got when I was recruited by cult last game.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5782/wtfdq.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/8/wtfdq.jpg/)

[AdmiralCain]

"being lynched at night" has absolutely nothing to do with being bashed to death. We needed a blunt-force death, so I did it this way.


I don't really understand why it needs to relate to being bashed to death, but okay. Let's roll with it.

[Elixir]

This is what I got when I was recruited by cult last game.
(Lookout: Alignment Cult)


God damn it this is how it should be.

Even the bugs in your code say so

[Hero]

I don't see the fuss about this bludgeoning. First of all, why wouldn't a mason have object with which he can smash people's head? It's a gang war between the Cult and the Masons. Gang wars have casualties. Also, if I were a newbie I had absolutely no idea how could've been someone lynched at night. Not like it matters, no newbie will know that it was a Mason except if DR rephrases it to "A MASON KILLED THIS GUY, MHKAY?". At the next day they will be "what the hell is bludgeoning/lynching at night???" and the others will tell them what happened.

So basically it's the same for newbies, but bludgeoning is more awesome. You can just feel the tension between the two groups.

[Nick]

Yea, why the fuss. As long as the weapons are exclusive!

Bows/crossbows
Club/maces
Firearms
Daggers
Swords
Polearms
Magics
Pets

[Elixir]

Trying to break the game with cultists and disguisers.

We need to go deeper.

[Hero]

Since the update haven't hit EU just yet, i'd have some questions based on the comments here:
- If a cultist recruits a mafia member, then which chat does he see? To which chat can he type?
- If a cultist cultist (yeah) dies, then one of the previously recruited players (a cultist doctor for example) becomes cultist cultist?

Well, these questions only stand if the recruited players can keep their original abilities and roles as well.

[Nick]

I'm more interested in knowing the recommended setups.

With Cults and Townies, mafia might get sandwiched in the middle and end up like SK in normal games.

[TheJackofSpades]

Since the update haven't hit EU just yet, i'd have some questions based on the comments here:
- If a cultist recruits a mafia member, then which chat does he see? To which chat can he type?
- If a cultist cultist (yeah) dies, then one of the previously recruited players (a cultist doctor for example) becomes cultist cultist?

Well, these questions only stand if the recruited players can keep their original abilities and roles as well.

First of all, this discussion is over a test version of the unreleased upcoming mafia patch.

Secondly, the cultist unfortunately does not work the way you seem to think. Cult recruitment just recruits their target into being an exact copy of themself.

[Clawtrocity]

As far as setup goes there is no balancing this with 15 people. Cultists are a never dying plague that just recruit forever and you can never stop them. Town needs to be able to have enough votes that if they lynch a correct target each night they can still win. Mafia will never win with cultist in the game.

Dark needs to be thinking about adding some anti-Cult role for mafia I.E. the enforcer. He's immune to cult and can prevent a teammate or another player from turning into a cult. If he targets a cult with his ability at night he knows he is cult. This way he can not only counter claim a sheriff, but he can prevent his own teammates from getting recruited, get people that can't be recruited lynched because everyone thinks they are Godfather, and help destroy the cult either by killing them or outing them and acting like a sheriff.

Town basically needs to have masons. At the very least a Mason Leader to kill cultists with and maybe a mason or not turning citizens off from random. They need at least 2 investigating roles and 1 doctor. I still think them having a vigilante will help. You risk the chance that a stupid person gets it, but he can shoot cultists when it gets down to part when cultists are overpowering town and give them another chance.

The main problem I think is that Mafia excel on having an SK they that can help with killing, but with cultist active in the game you can't have an SK. The SK kills people too fast and cultist or mafia will take over and win. Town has no chance. On the otherhand without an SK the Mafia can't kill fast enough and will get run out by Cultist or killed by Town.

Here's my recommended setup after playing a handful of games yesterday. Assume default settings for simplicity.

Sheriff
Investigator
Doctor
Mason Leader
Vigilante
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather - Can kill without Mafioso
Random Mafia - Can't turn into Mafioso
Basic Mafia - Can't turn into Mafioso/Can spawn as Mafioso
Mafioso
Arsonist
Cultist
Benign Neutral

The main reason I think this can work is because the Arsonist won't normally kill people until later in the game. That allows people to be doused, culted, checked out, and murdered in that time meaning sometimes an Arsonist's target may already be dead unlike the SK kill who only has a chance at attacking the same target as Mafia.

4 Mafia, but they are slighty weaker. If Godfather and mafioso both die then Mafia can't kill. However they have 4 people so they don't have to survive as long until they can brute force it.

Benign Neutral to cause confusion

Now when we go test this it's going to be so broken and nothing will work that we'll have to go back to the drawing board because of fucked up cultists are.

[Goonswarm]

The problem is that without 2 cultists the cult can get sniped on night 1 and at that point the entire thing goes out the window.

[Imperfect]

Cannot have Mayor in the same setup with a cultist. If mayor gets converted he seems like town but is a cultist with mayor abilities. I have only played one game with cult so far but it already seems like a terrible role. Will give it some more tries. I'm making them as weak as possible and going to see if that is even enough to make them not OP.

[Nick]

The problem is that without 2 cultists the cult can get sniped on night 1 and at that point the entire thing goes out the window.


No different from SK then. Which is good I guess.

[Cyber_Cheese]

As far as setup goes there is no balancing this with 15 people. Cultists are a never dying plague that just recruit forever and you can never stop them. Town needs to be able to have enough votes that if they lynch a correct target each night they can still win. Mafia will never win with cultist in the game.

Dark needs to be thinking about adding some anti-Cult role for mafia I.E. the enforcer. He's immune to cult and can prevent a teammate or another player from turning into a cult. If he targets a cult with his ability at night he knows he is cult. This way he can not only counter claim a sheriff, but he can prevent his own teammates from getting recruited, get people that can't be recruited lynched because everyone thinks they are Godfather, and help destroy the cult either by killing them or outing them and acting like a sheriff.

Town basically needs to have masons. At the very least a Mason Leader to kill cultists with and maybe a mason or not turning citizens off from random. They need at least 2 investigating roles and 1 doctor. I still think them having a vigilante will help. You risk the chance that a stupid person gets it, but he can shoot cultists when it gets down to part when cultists are overpowering town and give them another chance.

The main problem I think is that Mafia excel on having an SK they that can help with killing, but with cultist active in the game you can't have an SK. The SK kills people too fast and cultist or mafia will take over and win. Town has no chance. On the otherhand without an SK the Mafia can't kill fast enough and will get run out by Cultist or killed by Town.
EDIT: ETC


masons arent required, it's possible to tinker town to still have a good chance
im not sure mafia should have a class specifically balanced to work around one role which may or may not be in the game

[SnipingHobo]

Apparently when a non-killing Mafia gets culted, that mafia still appears in the Allies box of the mafia faction, even though he is now a cultist and no longer an ally.

(I was Godfather and the Blackmailer was culted.)

[Dark.Revenant]

That's intended.

[MENTLEGEN]

In all honesty I think the cultist is just too powerful of a role. Hosts have to balance everything around the fact that there is a cultist or 2 in the game...

[Dark.Revenant]

That's the point of Cult. It's a third FACTION, not some throwaway neutral killer.

[Hero]

I like how everytime a new role hits the game, people like 1.IT'S AWESOME, MAN, SO COOL 2. Oh well, maybe it's not THAT awesome.... 3.DR, this is the worst thing you've done in your entire life. Seriously, this is so broken and imba that you mgiht as well delete the game, thanks. 4. Oh look, it's actually not broken and not imba!

Whatever. Question: If someone is being converted and attacked at the same night, can doctor heal both? I know doc can only heal 1 attack, but does culting counts as a second attack, or an entirely seperate action? If doc can't protect from both at the same time, which one goes through? My bet is on the culting, because killings happen first.

[Dark.Revenant]

Healing is a different system. Cult-prevention acts like normal immunity.

Basically he can heal and prevent a conversion at the same time.

[Deadlytalon]

Rev, When you heal a player, and cult tries to convert, they can't convert them right ? Cause game I just played, its 2 town, vs 2 cult. I claimed vet so they where scared to target me, and I healed the other town. Next morning wake up, I'm lynched cause all 3 left are cults and the heal did nothing. So is that a glitch ?

[Dark.Revenant]

You didn't have that option on, apparently. It's not on by default because Cultists can't be randomed by default.

[TheJackofSpades]

Claw's post
The problem with 4 mafia vs cult is that it just gives the cult another chance to find out every mafia's identity. Other than that I pretty much agree that the only way you can introduce neutrals to a cult variant is the arsonist. The amnesiac is pretty much the most annoying thing possible because you kill the cult off and then he finds it necessary to take over cultist.

[Deadlytalon]

Ahh that was the prob thanks DR, :D I thought it was on by default :P

[Hero]

I don't know about you, but in Europe if someone is converted by a Cultist, he becomes a Cultist. Now I was thinking that Elixir's response to the cultist lookout picture ("that's how it supposed to wrok) was just joking around, but then why would DR put in an option that mayor loses his votes if in a Cult?