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View Full Version : Why all the citizen hate?



The.KK
May 1st, 2011, 11:04 AM
So do good players also dislike citizens? I for one think they're quite important and add a good dynamic but noobs always ruin it with their complaining. Let me explain why.
For one the mafia can easily claim to be citizen and then actual citizens have to defend their role pretty hard especially when the town cannot afford a no-lynch. This makes citizens active and the town needs to think about who helped the town the most, what judgments did the people who claim citizen made during the game, etc.
Another important role of the citizen that non-noobs should know is their option to claim being an important role and hopefully make it believable so that mafia shoots them at night instead of randomly shooting an actual power role.
Citizens add lying and uncertainty to the game which is really fun of the game.

All in all, although citizens do not influence the game by doing things at night (for some reason people think that's the fun part of the game ::)), they can influence the game a lot with their talking and that's their role. Try it yourself, you'll see how it feels to defend your citizen status because people think you're scummy and a maf claimed citizen. It's a rush.

Now I've tried alternatives to citizens; Masons at first, it looked more fun and interesting but there really shouldn't be more than 2 depending on the setup otherwise if town is good they can require a role call and since the 3 masons know eachother it becomes pretty easy to pin point the mafia. With 2 masons it kind of avoids that problem.
Another alternative is putting random towns instead of citizens... which also allows lying and uncertainty but can make the game unbalanced... but I've been putting randoms more often now since people leave when they see citizen and mess it all up.

Anyway, what do you guys think about citizens? I played epicmafia before and there were almost always villagers and the games were even longer in that game. In the SC2 version the games are shorter and people still don't want citizens even if they won't even be a citizen for a long time really and they get EXTRA points for being one.

Afumba
May 1st, 2011, 11:10 AM
I agree with u... i like citizen.

Noobs think its a useless role but as u stated it isnt. Beside of what u mentioned...
Disctracting killers at least 1 time... (with 1time vest maybe 2 times) buying time for inv/sheriff/doc/escort so they live 1-2 rounds longer maybe... Helps town alot...

But unfortunately to many ppls are noob and leave game when they aer citizen... same goes for mason...

Doc
May 1st, 2011, 01:44 PM
Thing is, nobody likes to just have a vest. Your argument of "a citizen helps a town a lot because he distracts the mafia" is invalid since most citizens come from "random town" option and most people choose to exclude citizens. With the "exclude citizens" turned on there are more power roles for the town hence the town has a higher chance to win than with citizens.
If you're a citizen, you're the "trash" of the town that has no special power and just act as the "filler". Maybe the word trash is too harsh, but let's face it: Citizens are by far the most boring role. You have no responsibility as to who you should investigate or kill or control, you're just sitting there talking bad about other people until you die. Some sort of a serious jester. That's why I hate being citizen myself.

TL;DR: Citizens act just as filler and have no dynamics whatsoever

Clawtrocity
May 1st, 2011, 01:53 PM
Again, that's completely and utterly wrong. Whenever I get citizen I crack my knuckles and get ready for a fun game. As a citizen you don't have to be worried about talking because who cares if you die? You don't have any powers, but you can analyze things.

Consig's main move is to act like an investigator, but why would an investigator come clean first night with someone they expect to be an SK? Because regardless if they kill an SK or a doctor it helps them and they can't be blocked by mafia because they are mafia. Using that info you can either call him out right then or put it in your last will and PM him "I know you're consig, if I die at all my last will will call you out...Your move" Blackmailing the mafia is a bold move and if they have a janitor then you could get screwed over, but the risk may be worth the reward in that you can act like a doctor and when a janitor erases your role they will think there aren't any more doctors.

I always try to use these specific examples, but I could literally make a thousand of them where the citizen ends up helping the town win.

Afumba
May 1st, 2011, 02:22 PM
Doc... sry but u dont argue reasonable.

U are stating my argument for citizen lacks because ppl want them excluded... No point in ur argument.
Sure, u can say many ppls dont like citizen... cuz they think its a boring role. Yes... but u can not say the "pro citizen" arguments are wrong cuz of this.

Fact is... all pro citizen arguments made here are accurate IF citizens are in a setup.

If ppl dont take em into the roaster or exclude it from random roles... its a host/ppls fault not of the role itself.
Also i play recently with 2-3 citizen or 2-3 mason in the starting roaster... choosen...

And for me ppls who think citizen is more boring then... are noobs... or at least they dont like to/want to roleplay.
If ppls play Mafia only to be SK/Mafia for example they should better not play it at all... my oppinion.

And u have the same problem as the ppls who exclude citizen... u see the game as kinda action game where everyone has to shoot or investigate or use any awesome power... but its not. Its an RPG and citizen gives u way more options as u have with other major roles like doctor for example. (in my opinion the most boring role :P & i could name some more roles more boring then citizen^^)

Well everyone ike to play some roles more and some less... but for me no role so far is useless or unplayable...
If there is an underpowered role... i know only 1 who might be... --> Spy if choosen.
Everything else... fits great.

Morgil
May 1st, 2011, 02:42 PM
You "pros" may call me noob but I agree that Citizen is just boring.
Yes you may analyse thing.
Yes you may take a bullet for a sheriff etc.

But seriously... you are able to analyse things no matter what role you are in... thats not a pro-citizen arguement.
And taking a bullet is not part of the game. There are roles in the real-life rpg where taking a bullet is in fact part of the game. But as a citizen your role is to survive and kind of help town.

I see the point where you can say whatever you want and do not care bout getting killed. But that is not valid. You are town. You should not die. You should survive to vote against mafia etc.

Citizen is a fine role as long as you play it in real life, where you can look at each others faces n stuff.
But in an online game, without voices and faces you cannot even guess something with at least 80% certainty. You are bound to believe written words. And all you can do is read, write maybe vote and die.... not much fun in that for me.

The.KK
May 1st, 2011, 02:49 PM
Citizens can do so much more than just taking a bullet for someone. In fact they can do whatever they want to steer the game in a certain way without having to worry about sacrificing an important role, so they can claim whatever role, extract information, act scummy, whatever that could help the town. It's actually a very versatile role.

Morgil
May 1st, 2011, 03:05 PM
Except you can do that as every evil role or Jester too. Why should anyone believe you? They don't. And just saying things out loud because you do not worry about dying... well isn't it a part of the thrill of the game to try and stay alive as long as possible except you are a Jester?
I really do not see your point.
Yes they can talk - as everybody else.
Yes they can vote - as everybody else.
Etc.

Your whole arguement is that: in the hands of a skilled player, Citizens are not only fun but really useful...
Now my question: what if you put a role with actual influence in the hands of a skilled player? Hmmm....

Clawtrocity
May 1st, 2011, 03:11 PM
Again this argument is stupid because Citizen is the baseline of this game. There should only be citizens and mafioso and with a sheriff and maybe a doctor or two. The game is fun because it's fun to lie and trick people. It feels gratifying when you've gone the entire game acting like a doctor and at the end it turns out you were a citizen.

Then again if you're like me and you do this often enough some simpleminded fool will get the impression that you're trolling and get banned from in-houses with that particular person...You know that could happen too. I lol'd

If someone doesn't like their randomized role then they have the right to leave. It sucks for the rest of them, but that's the nature of this game. Some people leave and there's nothing you can really do about it. Sometimes you die night one and you have zero impact on the game. Sometimes a sheriff might get lucky and figure out you're the SK first night and then you're kind of boned. I'm assuming that's what this was about, but there shouldn't be any kind of buffs going to Citizens. They serve their purpose and they can be turned off. If you don't like playing with citizens then host your own game and turn them off.

Morgil
May 1st, 2011, 03:21 PM
Na most ppl just don't like Citizens, thats what this is about, Claw ^^

I just tried to disprove the pro-citizen-arguements. Cause I really hate being citizen AND I hate people calling me noob for just saying that.
I don't want citizens to be buffed. If you like them, go on. i just think it's the most boring role in the game - in the online game, not in the real game!

The.KK
May 1st, 2011, 04:15 PM
Except you can do that as every evil role or Jester too. Why should anyone believe you? They don't. And just saying things out loud because you do not worry about dying... well isn't it a part of the thrill of the game to try and stay alive as long as possible except you are a Jester?
I really do not see your point.
Yes they can talk - as everybody else.
Yes they can vote - as everybody else.
Etc.

Ever had the feeling that you could steer the whole situation in another direction but it would be too risky for the role you're carrying as a Townie? This allows someone from the Town to do something of possible high return with low risk on their side.



Your whole arguement is that: in the hands of a skilled player, Citizens are not only fun but really useful...
Now my question: what if you put a role with actual influence in the hands of a skilled player? Hmmm....

Then good for him and his party? You don't need everybody to be doing something that affects the "physical" state of a player, the psychological state is pretty damn important too (what he/she believes, what people believe he/she is, etc) and citizens do very well in that. In fact if there are too many roles that affect the physical state ("actual influence" as you say) then you risk making the game too mathematical, with the proper sequences the good players can figure it out. Either way, citizens can be just as dynamic as any other role and they are one of the main ingredients of Mafia, not just some spices like some other roles are.

Afumba
May 1st, 2011, 06:00 PM
For first Morgil... i called ppls noobs that think citizen dont have a purpose and should be buffed and stuffed.
If someone does not like to play with em... i am fine. I dont like to play with doctor or investigator... No prob.
But most of the ppl dislike citizen only because they can not kill, or investigate or dont have any button to do somethng at night. Same ppl mostly dislike masons as well for same reason.
And those people i call noobs becaue in my eyes they are. Its my opinion.

And sry Morgil but in my eyes u are totally wrong on the "survive" argument. This is not a solo play game...
If u are Town ur main goal is to get Town to win... not to survive as long as possible. Sure if u manage to stay alive till the end... fine... if not... then u dont. Every Town role has this purpose... "let town suvive" not "let myself survive"

Actually u can say doctor is sooo boring too.. y? what does a doc do? He dies 100% once he is discovered and beside that he has always to heal sheriff/inv... so nothing he can decide by himselve most of the time. Nontheless he is important for town.
And srsly.. in my eyes there is by far not a more boring role as doctor.

Also ur argument about voting... lacks... if u die and as exchanged sheriff/inv lives therefore (for exmaple)... u helped ur town alot. It does not change the votes on next day... but the sheriff can make the diffence next day due to ur sacrifice. Well i could mention plenty of example concerning the citizen...

At the end... as it was stated here... some likes em some dont... some turn it on and some not. In my games i turn them always on... and i also leave often if other hosts turn em off.

Zack
May 2nd, 2011, 02:18 AM
Well, I tend to add random town roles as host myself... I try not to exclude citizens and just make sure they have the vest turned on. People notice it though, and then they all go "Exclude citizens!"... I guess I should just ignore them, lol, but i'm too nice o.o

In my personal opinion, Citizen > Doctor > Mason. Thats if I had to choose one of those roles.

I agree, what a Citizen has, as opposed to other town roles, is freedom of speech. The freedom to lead the town and to openly declare his opinions. Do not mock the "town leader", its a "role" you aquire simply by talking. If you manage to achieve that, by organizing the information the sheriff, invest, escort and spy bring to the table, and singling out the mafia with logic and deduction, then you're much more than just a Citizen :p

As Citizen, you don't have to hide your role. And thats an advantage if you think about it.

About Masons... You said that having just 2 sorts out the problem of 3 being too many. Well 2 are too few. My opinion, if you add Masons to the game, its 3 or nothing. With only 2, they are less than a Citizen, they don't have vests and they get less points. There is no incentive to wanting to be Mason. More often than not one Mason ends up dead early on, be it by suicide cus he hates the role or because he died 1st or 2nd night. Then the 2nd Mason is alone, and has very little desire to stay in the game at that point. Thus, if you want Masons, its at least 3. If you think 3 Masons can screw the game up, then don't add any Masons at all, put Citizens or Random Town instead.

The.KK
May 2nd, 2011, 02:32 AM
Yeah I stopped putting masons. It's more interesting for the masons to be 3 but it makes the game too easy. I wish masons could recruit new members like in epicmafia. Or maybe have another form of cult that doesn't show the name of the players.

Supersun
May 2nd, 2011, 02:36 AM
2 masons + 1 spy that can listen to masons is pro.

Zack
May 2nd, 2011, 03:08 AM
And what if the spy can hear the Masons? Spy in itself is pretty much a fail role. The mafia will always mislead the spy if there is one or if there is random town they'l be cautious too, unless they are stupid. Instead of Spy who can hear Masons you might as well add another Mason.

Here's a real suggestion that could make Masons more worthwhile. An option to let the Vigilante hear the Masons, now that would be pro.

Afumba
May 2nd, 2011, 06:28 AM
yea i agree with u on the mason thing... :) 2 is normaly not enough.

Also i dont understand some ppls setups... they exclude citizen... and on the other side they remove GFs immunity at night and give himimmune to detection instead... kinda weird?^^

ShadowsEdge
May 6th, 2011, 09:29 AM
The citizen's role in itself is already a challenge. As seemingly powerless and helpless you are, you just might be able to change the flow of the game, and that's the challenge. However, I can see where the citizen-dislike is coming from, as I also don't tend to enjoy playing as a citizen.

I read most of the arguments defending citizens here but I think that you guys are forgetting something : This is about replacing a citizen role with another powerrole, not completely remove an entire player from the game. Take this example.

Game setup for townies :
1 sheriff, 1 invest, 1 consort, 1 doc, 1 random town

Now let's say that you happen to be the citizen from the random town. Yeah, you can do all those things that you guys mentioned in your previous posts, deceive other mafias, speak out loudly without concern, take attention away from the powerroles and all the other awesome stuff he can do. But then, did you ever consider :

What if we excluded citizen roles from random town? Now you'll have obtained a powerrole! Woo. Now then. What stops you from doing all the stuff citizens do (except the vest. But don't go around arguing about how awesome the vest is, because the survivor normally has 2, and because of that, the survivor > citizen, especially with the fact that he has easier winning conditions, which is much more fun because you can immediately change sides to whoever is winning) ? Not only have you obtained a useful role (Either checking other peoples roles, healing other people, role blocking and whatnot), but you can still go around parading.

In the first scenario, there're only 3 powerroles and 1 citizen. In the second, there're 4 powerroles. You can do what citizens normally do and still get the benefit of a powerrole.

Afumba
May 6th, 2011, 10:45 AM
I see were u are going ShadowsEdge...^^

But this is not about comparing the roles... its about stating if the role is useless or not & if the role is boring to play or not.
If i would compare the roles and just use roles who are best for each side... u could easy leave the one or other power-role out of the game - always.

Also sure.... u can act with a power-role same as u can as citizen... but i dont think ppls will like ur playstyle if u are doctor for example... and play "pls kill me" like drawing the attention of evryone at u :) If u die the night after & its reavealed u are a Doc... i believe a lot ppls will not be plsed ^^

Oh and about a survivor... y would survivor want to draw attention toward him? Or help the town anyway?
Most Survivor i saw mind their own business and try to survive... siding with the side beeing in the best spot for the current moment. Wouldnt be wise to draw attention on u as a survivor^^ at least mostly it isnt^^

Trenix
May 6th, 2011, 06:53 PM
Citizens are fun, but because of all of the extra roles, no one will want to play them. Unless there is a reason for them to play a citizen, don't be surprised if they continue to leave your games. Yes, it is stupid because citizens do have some importance. For example, it's better for a citizen to die rather than a more important role. A citizen is supposed to rely on others, which everyone is too stubborn to do. We need a roles that only relies on others, because there are way too many idiots who obtain important roles.

Points don't matter to people, unless you're deduct them. So deducting someones points because of a leave can be a possible solution. Another thing, you can add achievements. Players will then treat roles more equally since you must play a certain role to obtain that achievement. It's why players try different races on starcraft.

ShadowsEdge
May 7th, 2011, 02:28 AM
@Afumba
I think I like survivor because of its flexibility. Yes, you don't want to draw attention to yourself. At any point in the game, you can freely choose to help either the mafia or the town people with lynching. Then if everything suddenly goes wrong, you'll still win even if the other side won, if you managed to survive that is. A much more fun role where your sole purpose is to survive (And not to get yourself lynched in hopes of buying more time for the town).

Faceless
May 8th, 2011, 11:07 AM
I always view citizens as powerful since once you announce your role there's no urge for anyone to kill you. Mafia/SK will view you as "meh" because of your inability to hinder their night-time actions. It's also easy to claim Sheriff and then absorb some blows with your vest at night.

Afumba
May 8th, 2011, 11:14 AM
@ShadowEdge
hehe u missunderstood me^^ i like Survivor role as well :) I am not sayng that it is boring or something.
I am just saying that Citizen and Survivor are completely different & have roleplay option for his own that the other side should not/can not do... in order to be successfull (or it is not as good as for the other role).

@Trenix
on public games u are right... but i mostly do not play public games... and we make games were citizen are included.
Unfortunately on public games u have to play one of the few standard build... or otherwise ppls will leave...
So i try to avoid them and mix it up with ppl who like to play idfferent style of setups... not always the sames :)