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View Full Version : Spy is worst than single mason or Civilian.



thunderraiden
April 25th, 2011, 01:20 PM
Spy is utterly useless unless you get in a very rare game where the mafia is noob, and even in that case, the vast majority of other games, even half way decent players will likely throw you off, what does it matter to them if they are clicking a box? I have no idea how to fix it, but it is a very useless role as it plays now, and it should at least get citizen points at end of game. Or get a one time perfect detection of a player per game.

Dark.Revenant
April 25th, 2011, 01:27 PM
The spy makes the Mafia scared. Really.

I've seen spies singlehandedly win the game for the town. They are NOT pushovers. But yeah I'll give them a slight point boost for having no active ability in the next update.

Clawtrocity
April 25th, 2011, 01:45 PM
The spy has the ability to screw over the mafia who are bad at lying or screw over the town because the mafia is good at lying.

I know I always have to act a lot different in mafia chat when I know there could be a spy(Random town puts Mafia on toes)

Point boost could be cool though.

Fred323
April 25th, 2011, 01:59 PM
They have to be random town for them to have any use at all which I don't like.

McJesus
April 25th, 2011, 02:16 PM
I like the spy whenever I am playing as mafia in the pubs, I've allways just been like guyx (who isn't a mafia) who should we kill and then the next day the spy goes and gets that guy lynched like an idiot. It is so hillarious and awesome!

Echo
May 5th, 2011, 10:44 AM
As an FYI, it hink the new spy boost is a great idea. Knowing who was killed by the mafia, very cool skill to balance out the class.

Hex
May 5th, 2011, 11:28 AM
I don't understand the spy hate, the spy is a very powerful class, the people who don't seem to do well with the class are either naive (Believe mafia using random names) or have no creativity/ability to analyze the chat and make use of something like how things were said rather than what was actually said.

Just having a spy makes things incredibly difficult for the Mafia, even having no spy in the game but random towns makes it difficult for the mafia.

Searix
May 5th, 2011, 12:47 PM
I don't understand the spy hate, the spy is a very powerful class, the people who don't seem to do well with the class are either naive (Believe mafia using random names) or have no creativity/ability to analyze the chat and make use of something like how things were said rather than what was actually said.

Just having a spy makes things incredibly difficult for the Mafia, even having no spy in the game but random towns makes it difficult for the mafia.


You don't have a very large sample then. As everyone in this thread has said, what happens is the second there could be a spy, the mafia simply don't say anything at all the rest of the game in mafia chat. I mean really, why do mafia even really need to talk? Ever?

Bluebird
May 5th, 2011, 01:58 PM
Most games I play, the mafia can't talk anyway because night time is too short for any discussion. I usually just throw in a fake clue for the spy and then time's up.

Deolrin
May 5th, 2011, 02:00 PM
I always set the night to 1 minute long, but I suppose most hosts don't do that.

Afumba
May 5th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Well not beeing able to chat as mafia could be bothering :D
If u have a different opinion who to block or who to check or or... and u can not talk... cuz of a Spy...
Or if u have a consigliere and he can not type his discovery easily in the chat...
Or if u want the janitor to clean up completely different as he is wants to do...

Sure they are ways to comunicate without the chat (not meaning Skype/Ts or stuff like that... ingame things u can do without typing) but it can be a pain for some ppls^^

Hex
May 5th, 2011, 07:20 PM
You don't have a very large sample then. As everyone in this thread has said, what happens is the second there could be a spy, the mafia simply don't say anything at all the rest of the game in mafia chat. I mean really, why do mafia even really need to talk? Ever?


Because not being able to talk is a HUGE disadvantage to mafia especially when playing against an experienced and coordinated town. To argue this point is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of the game. Having a spy is a pain in the ass for the mafia. Having the spy and not knowing for certain there is a spy is a bigger pain for the mafia. Having the possibility of there being a spy without actually having a spy at all is the biggest pain for the mafia. How do people not recognize this?

A good spy will pick through the FUD in the mafia and contribute to the town in potentially powerful way. A bad spy, like any other role can damage the town. A spy who causes the mafia to not say a single thing until the spy is dead, or potentially the end of the game, has already had a potentially crippling effect on the mafia.

IMO if you don't appreciate the role you don't understand the role, and probably aren't playing it properly.

Edgeris
May 5th, 2011, 10:33 PM
Spies do not stop mafia from communicating with each other. They can simply select the target to designate who they're talking about. Whenever I'm mafia and there's a spy, I just use the no names rule. All information can be communicated and selecting a target to fill in the names.

Imagine a consigliere had investigated A and found out he's a sheriff or investigator. Chat could go something like this:
Player will investigate A.
Player: This person is a sheriff or investigator. We should kill him.
Player cancels investigating A.
Player will investigate B.

From the mafia's perspective, Player is saying A is sheriff or investigator.

The spy would only see the message. The message alone does not say anything except that there is a sheriff or investigator and the mafia knows who they are. The spy would only slow the speed they communicate, not their ability to communicate.



Even then, if mafia mentions someone by name, the spy would not know if the mafia's playing a trick or the mafia made a slip-up.

"Mafia: A is an investigator, B. We should have him blocked."

From this, the spy might be able to determine that B is mafia; A is a good guy; and they have a consort.
Or that the mafia is trying to trick the spy, where A is consigliere and B is a random person. They may or may not have a consort.
Or maybe the mafia made a mistake during the trick or made a sacrificial lamb out of B: A is consigliere; B is mafia; may or may not have a consort.
Or the mafia is actually communicating info during the trick: A is sheriff or investigator; B is a random town; they have a consort.



From what I can tell, there's only one way for a spy identify a mafia with a high degree of certainty-- If someone uses a unique speech pattern after it was used in mafia chat (and not before).

Suppose the spy sees the mafia chat as follows (based on an actual game):

Mafia: wow...
Mafia: wow teal is annoying
Mafia: ikr

The second statement could be a red herring (so teal could still be mafia).
The first and third statements tell of potential unique word patterns. "wow..." and "ikr" had not been used in the exact form in regular chat. "wow" had been used but not "wow..."

Later on, both phrases show up in regular chat from two different people. The person who used "wow..." was identified by the sheriff as mafia and was promptly lynched. Confirmed to be mafia.
The next day, the spy stated their role and pointed at the other player's usage of "ikr". The rest of the town decided to listen to the spy and successfully lynched the mafia.

Throughout the entire game, "ikr" appeared only two times. First in mafia chat and then in regular chat. It is important that it appears first in mafia chat. Otherwise, the mafia could be trying to trick the spy with it.



tl;dr Spies do not stop mafia communication, just makes them take more time. Spies can not identify any mafia except when they notice a unique word pattern that shows up first in mafia chat and then in regular chat. Everything else (even names) can be mafia tricking the spy.

Searix
May 5th, 2011, 10:53 PM
Just dropping by to say that the above post is a great post, +1

Trenix
May 11th, 2011, 04:15 PM
To make spies more useful you could have the spy see the players that the mafia select. Other then that, they're fine. Tricking is strategic, remember that...

Edgeris
May 11th, 2011, 04:33 PM
Mafia tricking the spy is strategy... which makes the spy very useless. The spy can't do anything to trick the mafia.

I don't know about how the seeing what mafia selects option works (never was spy with that option on). Does it also show what consig or consorts selects and then cancels? If a consort decides for some odd reason to click on all the buttons at night, would the spy then know who isn't mafia (since consort can't target their own)?

Faceless
May 11th, 2011, 07:32 PM
Spy only seems bad when you're the one playing it. When the Mafia considers the idea of a Spy they're a bit more scared and it hinders their ability to plan out their strategies.

If you find that mafia don't talk enough in your games, add a Consigliere.

Edgeris
May 12th, 2011, 05:13 AM
When I'm mafia and there's a random town or a listed spy, I find that I'm not too hindered by the spy. Most of the time, my allies do the right action so there's already little need to communicate. Roughly 75% of all communication I use as mafia are to trick a potential spy.

Even with consigliere in the game, the only thing the consigliere needs to say is "we should kill blah". If blah is his target from before, I would try to kill that person.

The problem still lies in if the Mafia knows what to do, the spy can't do anything.

Zack
May 12th, 2011, 07:36 AM
The big problem with the Spy is the lack of trust. The town can't truly count on a spy's information... And that is the main reason why Spy is useless, no matter what his abilities are, if the town can't believe in his words then its pointless to have him in the first place. Over the course of so many mafia games the Spy has gotten an ill reputation, and can also be used as a cover for the Mafia, so even if you say you are a spy in your defence its unlikely that people will vote innocent.

The only way players will see the spy diffrently is if the spy's role was to be completely changed, as I have suggested before...

Sarzael
May 12th, 2011, 08:02 AM
In a game, a spy found out i was godfather, but not for names or for anything, it was for the GRAMMAR!!! I was the only one who was speaking correctly... From now i use different grammars for day and night.

Zack
May 12th, 2011, 08:29 AM
You just further explained why Spy is useless. Yes he got you that one game, but you'l never get caught the same way again. As someone stated, "If the mafia know what they are doing then Spy can't do anything", that statement is 100% truth. The Spy can only catch dumb or newbie mafia, smart players as mafia know how to make the spy completely worthless.

Supersun
May 12th, 2011, 02:54 PM
If the spy is only in the game to listen to the mafia, yeah, he's a little weak.

If the spy is in a game with masons as well and he can hear both...spy can virtually guarantee the towns win as essentially he's the super mason that can hear the mafia and pretty much.

If you balanced the spy with only hearing the mafia in mind where he's essentially the super investigator then in any game with masons he pretty much justs "power overwheling" the town to victory.

You are only saying the spy is weak because you don't account for all of the spies abilities. THe only issue is that 99% of masons or spies are morons when put in that position, but that isn't any worse then a noob hitting the investigator and having him lynch all yoru doctors and vigilantes and calling out your sheriffs.

Edgeris
May 12th, 2011, 04:17 PM
The spy is more or less like a mason. He's definitely not a super mason since all he can do is exchange identities. He can not communicate with them at night. I see the spy more like Mason (version b). I don't see how this allows the spy to virtually guarantee the town to win, considering the spy can't identify any mafia.

Super investigator? The only ability I don't know the details of is the spy seeing what the mafia targets. This is because I've never been the spy with this option on (can the spy see what the consort selects and then cancels; or what the mafioso votes to kill but gets overruled by godfather?).

Either way, this still leads to the spy being useless if the mafia knows what they're doing. He becomes a mason who can't communicate with the other masons.

Supersun
May 12th, 2011, 05:44 PM
the "super investigator" was more in response to other suggestions I've read about how to change the spy.

And the spy can most certainly communicate with the other masons. just not as directly but more then enough to lend them to the mason's plan. All you need is one smart mason really to coordinate everything and from there the spy suddenly becomes the mason that can see the mafia's chat and see the mafia's targets, hence the super mason. I've had games where the spy can clear peoples names because the mafia targeted them but the hit didn't go through.

a "mason" that can see the mafia's chat and see their hit targets is far from a useless job and in the right hands is powerful, especially if the masons know what they are doing.

Edgeris
May 12th, 2011, 08:19 PM
So does the see target ability apply to only kill targets or if any mafia targets anything?
If a consort decides to click on all the buttons, the spy would know who is mafia?
If a mafioso votes to kill someone but then cancels, would the spy know about this?
If a mafioso votes to kill someone but gets overruled by the godfather, would the spy know this?

The mason can communicate to the spy. The spy can't communicate back to the masons. This means that the spy can act along with the masons, but the spy can't modify their plans based on what the spy knows.

Supersun
May 12th, 2011, 11:47 PM
The spy sees the FINAL kill target.

Also, the spy can communicate with the masons...

He just has to do it during the day in a covert way. I mean if I can communicate as the witch to the mafia it shouldn't be that hard for a spy to talk to the masons lol.